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Lord Ben
How do I go about creating one? How much free will do they have? Could I turn myself into one?
Ophis
Look in Cybertechnology or Man and Machine (no good for SR4 but hey)

As They are perfectly free willed. However they need regular dosing with specific chemicals to keep them alive(well to stop them becoming a walking cancer) and I doubt your kind benefactors who fitted all that ware into you then called your spirit back from the edge won't have fitted you with some form of persuasion. So free willed in a sense.

Could you turn your self into one? Yep(well with some help its not not a spontaneous process) but the real question is why would you want to?
Ed_209a
Man and Machine will give you official answers to most of what you need.

Unofficially, if you are the GM, just throw together an ugly and unbalanced set of cyberware, and call it a cyberzombie. 8 essence of deltaware is a good starting point.

If you are a player, your character will probably never have the money or access to make yourself one

Some notes:

CZs are EXPENSIVE! They take high level and specialized medical knowlege and magical knowlege. There are probably only a few dozen places worldwide that can do the procedure.

When you hit zero essence, your spirit tries to leave. With cybermancy, you bind the spirit to the corpse. A CZ is constantly trying to die, but the spells just won't let him.

I think the biggest reason to make a CZ is to show people that you can. They really aren't cost effective, IMO. I can take the price tag of a CZ, dole it out in 1 mill increments to a team of cyber-enhanced agents, and take that undead tincan out several times over.

blakkie
CZ are the extra chrome, diamond studded, platinum inlaid version of the Segway. Trendy and nifty cubed, costs an unnamed price, but doesn't get you a lot more than walking, jogging and occationally catching the bus. smile.gif

They also have other byproducts of their creation process. CZ are dual natured but with no way to see on the astral. Not that they'd see much anyway if they could because they leave a trail of corrupted astral behind them (called "astral hazing").

Oh, and the two groups known/rumoured in canon to be the actual cybermancers are 1) an über (with balls) cabal of vampires 2) Aztec blood mages

Any corp creating a CZ had been subcontracting these folks. As of 2070? Well normally secretive cabals are not know to subscribe to a opensource philosophy, so it might still be quite limited knowledge.

P.S. If you went all deltaware how much cyber/bio (that wasn't redundant) would be left out from BBB at 6 essense?
Fortune
QUOTE (blakkie)
If you went all deltaware how much cyber/bio (that wasn't redundant) would be left out from BBB at 6 essense?

Quite a bit, once you chuck MbW4 into the mix. wink.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Nov 23 2005, 03:00 AM)
If you went all deltaware how much cyber/bio (that wasn't redundant) would be left out from BBB at 6 essense?

Quite a bit, once you chuck MbW4 into the mix. wink.gif

I mean SR4, with the essense friendly bioware options and the 50% rule.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (blakkie)
They also have other byproducts of their creation process. CZ are dual natured but with no way to see on the astral. Not that they'd see much anyway if they could because they leave a trail of corrupted astral behind them (called "astral hazing").

Cyberzonbies can see the Astral plane just like any other dual natured being. They simply can't see it well. However, 1 point of Aura Reading is more than enough to fully open their eyes.
TheScrivener
blakkie makes a good point- the level of deltaware/bioware in a cyberzombie in 2070 would start to be ruled by the actual physical volume of his body.
Takes me back to one of the last SR3 runs I did... the runners had to bring back an experimental MBW[4] system(with or without the CZ it was attached to) that somebody was testing... think it was MCT. In any case, I ended up inventing new cyberweapons for the dude... he had a double-length articulated spur that basically turned his deltagrade cyberarm into a spear-length weapon. Moved so fast he managed to escape the characters by running through a series of chainlink fences, just hacking through the monowire with this thing. Only thing that killed him was my house rule about obvious cyberlimbs/torsos and large amounts of electricity... thunderbolt+shockglove+freakin' ginormous troll.

Moral is, don't try to attack anyone that the ghouls won't feed on.
Tanka
Are there rules for Cyberzombies in SR4 yet? I didn't notice any.
TheScrivener
Nope, though conversion couldn't be too difficult.
Tanka
QUOTE (TheScrivener)
Nope, though conversion couldn't be too difficult.

True, but I'm far too lazy to do that. biggrin.gif
Azralon
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Nov 22 2005, 12:39 PM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Nov 22 2005, 11:00 AM)
They also have other byproducts of their creation process. CZ are dual natured but with no way to see on the astral.  Not that they'd see much anyway if they could because they leave a trail of corrupted astral behind them (called "astral hazing").

Cyberzonbies can see the Astral plane just like any other dual natured being. They simply can't see it well. However, 1 point of Aura Reading is more than enough to fully open their eyes.

My memory tells me that they did not have access to astral space, despite being astrally active. Likely since they're kept "alive" by spellwork. I believe Blakkie is correct.
Tanka
QUOTE (Azralon)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Nov 22 2005, 12:39 PM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Nov 22 2005, 11:00 AM)
They also have other byproducts of their creation process. CZ are dual natured but with no way to see on the astral.  Not that they'd see much anyway if they could because they leave a trail of corrupted astral behind them (called "astral hazing").

Cyberzonbies can see the Astral plane just like any other dual natured being. They simply can't see it well. However, 1 point of Aura Reading is more than enough to fully open their eyes.

My memory tells me that they did not have access to astral space, despite being astrally active. Likely since they're kept "alive" by spellwork.

They're dual-natured. They can see astrally, but they can't make anything out of it unless they take the Aura Reading skill.
Azralon
Right on.
blakkie
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Nov 22 2005, 10:39 AM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Nov 22 2005, 11:00 AM)
They also have other byproducts of their creation process. CZ are dual natured but with no way to see on the astral.  Not that they'd see much anyway if they could because they leave a trail of corrupted astral behind them (called "astral hazing").

Cyberzonbies can see the Astral plane just like any other dual natured being. They simply can't see it well. However, 1 point of Aura Reading is more than enough to fully open their eyes.

Hmmm, i didn't think the could. I'll have to go back and check that. I do know they are all the time dual like a ghoul (and all the FAB danger and such that brings).


... ah yes, there it is. They can see on the astral but they have trouble comprehending. I suppose so you could argue that that is just fluff talk for many CZs not having Aura Reading (Assensing). But there is another drawback that the vibrant images of the astral might lead to getting "lost in the details". Fluff text only though, no mechanics given...you'd have to translate to Perception checks....which would make an Aura Reading 1 a Bad™ thing.

Also they have to look out through the haze. If they stand in one spot too long, without an awakened helper cleaning up the astral, they can build a serious BC. Some of the grosser CZs can bring it up to Warp territory.

I guess i just read that all and filed it under "CZs have little business looking around the Astral" that eventually got perverted. smile.gif
Darkness
For SR3 we have it on p.52 MM, Drawbacks To Cybermancy and on p.57 MM, Dual Nature.

They are Dual Natured and can see the astral, but need Aura Reading to comprehend what they are perceiving.
Page 57 is the ruling to the fluff on page 52.
TheHappyAnarchist
Cyberzombies can be truly terrifying. They are used only at the very blackest darkest hearts of the corporations, and they generally are not sent out solo. Too much risk.

They are fantastically expensive and not suitable for large amounts of work. They are specialized killing machines. They are primarily used to "erase" things.

I argue that there is very little that can take down a team of cyberzombies. That is why corps pay the premium. That and the fact that they don't have to choose between the mil street sams and the likely 50-100 mil (at least?) cyberzombies.
They can have both. One for the most extreme needs. The others are more general operatives. Just think, executives at a corporation make multi million dollars a year now. A megacorp pushes multi trillion yen profits on a quarterly basis I believe. I will have to look at the Corporate Shadowfiles book. Good info there. Kind of scary. They actually had a real life corporate pirate as an advisor on the book.

Oh yeah, the corps also do it to compensate. I see your dragon and raise you a team of hot metal death!!!
Gothic Rose
Oh Holy Shit. That makes CZ's the premiere Spirit Fighters. Think about it! A Cyberzombie can use all of those nifty cyber-close combat weapons on that spirit you just summoned, and he can win.
Azralon
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
How do I go about creating one?

I also recall something in the flavor text about the cybermancy process potentially involving blood magic and the sacrifice of someone close to the zombie-to-be.
blakkie
QUOTE (Gothic Rose)
Oh Holy Shit. That makes CZ's the premiere Spirit Fighters. Think about it! A Cyberzombie can use all of those nifty cyber-close combat weapons on that spirit you just summoned, and he can win.

Hehe, just wait till the rules for Background Count. If a lesser spirit comes to a CZ that built up a BC the spirit'll have a tough time just touching him.

@ Darkness - Ok, so Aura Reading becomes the Perception roll. Yup, Aura Reading (1) would be soooo bad. wink.gif That's SR4 ready though (anyone that can astrally preceive can take Assensing). So would the CZ be aspected to the BC? If not he's going to be constantly fighting to see through the haze unless moving [forward].
Lord Ben
QUOTE (Ophis)
Could you turn your self into one? Yep(well with some help its not not a spontaneous process) but the real question is why would you want to?

To have +4 on nearly all my physical attributes, get 4 init passes, have all the bio/cyberware I can stuff inside myself, and all the neat other things like internal air tanks, grappling guns, and assault rifle arms... In short - unmatchable power!

I've never read CZ rules in SR4. At once point I had enough money to do it but the character didn't have the right background. Now I do have the right background.
Gothic Rose
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
QUOTE (Ophis @ Nov 22 2005, 09:31 AM)
Could you turn your self into one? Yep(well with some help its not not a spontaneous process) but the real question is why would you want to?

To have +4 on nearly all my physical attributes, get 4 init passes, have all the bio/cyberware I can stuff inside myself, and all the neat other things like internal air tanks, grappling guns, and assault rifle arms... In short - unmatchable power!

I've never read CZ rules in SR4. At once point I had enough money to do it but the character didn't have the right background. Now I do have the right background.

You're wrong. Dead wrong.

YOU have no power. Your OWNERS do. You're a dead man walking - quite literally - and you have no life. You cannot interact with human beings. You cannot interact with virtually any sentient species, be they spirit, shapechanger, of whatever.

You are a puppet, made of flesh and steel, and the men that made you are your puppetmasters. You dance when they tell you to dance, kill when they tell you to kill, and if you refuse, they override you with a Persona-Fix Chip. If you constantly refuse, and become a thorn, then they blow your head up with the 18 deltaware cranial bombs they implanted into your shining Cyberskull.

Dance, puppet. Dance.
Xenith
Sad, but true. Cyberzombie independance is generally measured in seconds or minutes. Without all that upkeep, you die (finally) very, very fast. You are not Robocop; you are a metal-meat puppet who might sometimes have a glimmer of self-awareness.
Tanka
QUOTE (Gothic Rose)
If you constantly refuse, and become a thorn, then they blow your head up with the 18 deltaware cranial bombs they implanted into your shining Cyberskull.

Good thing cranial bombs cost no Essence.
Superbum
You can interact with people. You just happen to get lost in the moment, hence the Invoked Memory Stimulator to snap you out of it.

You are not a mindless brute. Burnout (a Aztechnology CZ) quite often felt remorse for his previous life when he was once a skilled spellslinger (hence the name Burnout). He was also a pretty curious. Also, when the spirit Lethe possessed him they had some pretty funny conversations (which got even better when Burnout took a bad hit and his personality reverted back to when he was a 9 year old kid named Billy).
Lord Ben
Dependent on who? I don't know the mechanics behind it. I can't get 6.2 worth of cyberware without signing up wtih Aztechnology?
Azralon
True, Superbum. Mind you, that entire story arc was nutty *cough*ghostwalker*cough*, but I did get a kick out of the fact that innocent little Aquarena Springs was where the Big Crazy Ritual occurred.

Ben: Cyberzombies can be made only in delta clinics, and only in the particular ones that know the appropriate (blood?) rituals. At the time that the expansion book came out, there were supposed to be... what, like... 12? delta clinics in very secretive existence.
Superbum
Lets says that 5 different delta clinics have the capability to create a cyberzombie. Depending on what clinic you actually get acess to and what clinic will actually put forth the effort to creating a cyberzombie determines which corp now owns you.

Even though magic is binding your spirit to your body, you are dead. Your body has died and your spirit is pretty much just tricked into staying in place. Your body needs drugs and other nutrients on a timely basis to keep your body from developing cancers and other necrotic effects.

The amount of resources to keep a cyberzombie in good condition also requires a delta clinic. Meaning, whoever owns the clinic owns you. If you are doing any shadowwork at all, it will be purely for their own gains.
Superbum
QUOTE (Azralon)
True, Superbum. Mind you, that entire story arc was nutty *cough*ghostwalker*cough*, but I did get a kick out of the fact that innocent little Aquarena Springs was where the Big Crazy Ritual occurred.

I don't get the ghostwalker reference, been a while since I read those novels, but I did enjoy the monologues that Burnout had.

And yes, I also got a kick out of the Aquarena Springs part. What is better is that after those novels were written they have since closed that park and sold it to a company who had turned into a digsite.....
blakkie
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
Dependent on who? I don't know the mechanics behind it. I can't get 6.2 worth of cyberware without signing up wtih Aztechnology?


There is special 'ware you have to implant to keep reminding the CZ they are 'alive' as well as ongoing IV drips and such to keep the DNA-rearranging nanites going (and try stave off the cancer the nanites tend to cause).

Plus there is GM hand waving levels of occult rituals performed by blood mages and/or a cabal of hermetic vampires with ridiculous sustaining times to become Permanent and Drain levels that would normally drop a GD. Hmmm, i wonder how a blood mage/vampire would get around that? :E

Top it off with an obscenely expensive, top secret medical facility (although in SR4 there is no mention yet of few existing delta clinics, look for it in Augmentation though by 2070 the ranks might have increased some) staffed by the most schooled people to ever pick up a stethoscope.


Now, if you have that kind of cash in your hand are you REALLY going to blow it on killing yourself?
Lord Ben
Ah, so it isn't just some "keep your heart beating" bioware or a sustained spell, or a daily pill?
Lord Ben
Much more complex than I'd previously thought... But as an Orc who just wants to not die of old age it's a viable option I think. Or vampirism? Or downloading my brain into the matrix?
Tanka
QUOTE (blakkie)
Plus there is GM hand waving levels of occult rituals performed by blood mages and/or a cabal of hermetic vampires with ridiculous sustaining times to become Permanent and Drain levels that would normally drop a GD. Hmmm, i wonder how a blood mage/vampire would get around that? :E

Blood magic is a very powerful ally, indeed.
blakkie
QUOTE (Lord Ben @ Nov 22 2005, 01:42 PM)
Ah, so it isn't just some "keep your heart beating" bioware or a sustained spell, or a daily pill?

Oh ya, I missed the ongoing magic. Like i said it's hand waved, and it isn't sustained in the normal sense because there are no rules given for dispelling it. The word they use is "anchoring" the victim's patient's spirit to their body.

A portion of the Permanent part is was thinking of is healing of all the cutting damage. Casting Heal on a Cyberzombie is, ummm, difficult. rotfl.gif The upside is that they are more magically resistant to direct spell attacks than your average meat shield. But it just lumps it all into a 24+ hour ritual involving astral quests and multi big mojo spirits.

So no, it's not a bit of vat-grown, a sustaining focus, and a daily pill pop. biggrin.gif

QUOTE
Much more complex than I'd previously thought... But as an Orc who just wants to not die of old age it's a viable option I think.


Stepping in front of the 7:26PM monorail at the Space Needle station is a much cheaper, easier, and less painful route to the same end in approximately the same time frame. smile.gif
Azralon
QUOTE (Superbum)
What is better is that after those novels were written they have since closed that park and sold it to a company who had turned into a digsite.....

Because it's something like "the most continually inhabited site in North America," if I remember.

The rotten thing is that I was taking my big batch of anthropology classes at SWT not too long before they opened up the dig. nyahnyah.gif
mfb
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
But as an Orc who just wants to not die of old age it's a viable option I think.

not hardly. cybermancy in and of itself does nothing to keep a character from keeling over from old age. at best, it would allow the character to stuff more replacements for age-damaged parts into their body, but that's a GM call. your best bet--much cheaper, and much more in line with what you actually want to have happen--is Leonization.
Superbum
Don't think spells. Think devious metamagic.
Superbum
QUOTE (mfb)
your best bet--much cheaper, and much more in line with what you actually want to have happen--is Leonization.

Which is in SOTA: 2064 and overall wayyyy cheaper than the CZ process.
Lord Ben
What's Leonization?
Azralon
Named in reference to Juan Ponce de Leon and his quest for the fountain of youth, which he figured was somewhere in Florida. Might explain all the old folks that hang out there.

Basically it's a whole-body genetic treatment that rolls back your biological clock.
Feshy
We had a character become a cyberzombie in one of our games. It was his "reward" for defeating the cyberzombie that was stalking him. Not "reward" as in "great job, here's your yen and your 'essence below zero' passport." "Reward" as in "we lost our trillion-yen creation to this guy, and we need a replacement... who could be better than the man who took him down alone?"

Of course, by that point in the run, the character was in so deep, the loss of what little free will he had left wasn't that drastic. It was part of a series of runs I like to call "The runners are too powerful and need a real challenge." They all began the same way: "Hello, I'm Mr. Q." Q was a physad initiate who's character sheet listed only one adept power: "Plot Device, 10 points." He was the Johnson, though he often accompanied the runs. The character that became a cyberzombie was the only one to survive every single Q mission. Well, except the one where he became a cyberzombie, but that's really a technicality. (Not all the characters died... some bailed out after a run, or left the shadows... but many tried to stay the course and didn't make it.)

Ironically, the cyberzombie character was called "Zee" which fit in nicely with the Mr. Q plotline.
Gothic Rose
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
Much more complex than I'd previously thought... But as an Orc who just wants to not die of old age it's a viable option I think. Or vampirism? Or downloading my brain into the matrix?

It's not an option. That's the thing. You'd have to prove yourself a hundred times to a megacorp (like Aztechnology) to get them to work on you, and even then...well, it's just not viable. Becoming a vampire would be easier, although you'd end up as...what, a Wendigo? Yeah, those are the HMHVV Orcs. Do you -really- want to be furry?

If you can find out about it, you could always volunteer to be a test subject for the Methuselah testing. Methuselah is the condition some orcs seem to suffer - rapid aging, and such.
Lord Ben
Carolos Los Pepes isn't going down like just any normal person. He's going to live forever and get the most out of life and that's what he lives for. Long Haul works great for never sleeping and staying awake constantly to not waste time sleeping.

It's all just character goals anyway. Besides who knows what will happen by 2080? Zombies might be fairly common.
blakkie
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
Carolos Los Pepes isn't going down like just any normal person. He's going to live forever and get the most out of life and that's what he lives for. Long Haul works great for never sleeping and staying awake constantly to not waste time sleeping.

It's all just character goals anyway. Besides who knows what will happen by 2080? Zombies might be fairly common.

If Carolos sees Long Haul as the path to immortality he need not concern himself with thoughts of 2080. smile.gif
Gothic Rose
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
Zombies might be fairly common.

Only because the Shedim have taken over the planet.

Azralon
Time to stock up on shotguns and chainsaws.

... I mean, more than usual.
Ed_209a
Oh goodness yes. If you have the money to make yourself a CZ, have yourself Leonized, and use the rest to buy a small island to retire on. (Like Bermuda!)
Azralon
Heh. Remember in SR3 when a human could take Resources A, start with a million nuyen, and buy a permanent Luxury lifestyle straight out of character generation?
PlatonicPimp
QUOTE (Azralon)
Heh. Remember in SR3 when a human could take Resources A, start with a million nuyen, and buy a permanent Luxury lifestyle straight out of character generation?

Ah, yes. I love that runner. He was always so useful on the team. "So, Bill's breaking into the compound, Jenny's slicing IC, bob, what are you doing?" "i'm sipping a pina colada and admiring this weeks elven girlfriend in bermuda."
Rotbart van Dainig
Actually, it was just a High Lifestyle. wink.gif
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