Full Version: Touch spells
| QUOTE (SR4 p195) |
| To touch an unwilling target, the caster must make a normal unarmed attack as part of the Complex Action of spellcasting (see Melee Combat, p. 146). One net hit is sufficient for the caster to touch the target. |
| QUOTE (SR4 p148) |
| If a character is merely seeking to touch an opponent, rather than damage him (in order to cast a touch-only spell, for example), then the attacker receives a +2 dice pool modifier. |
So, Zenmaster Touchyfeelie has Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts): 6 ( 8 ) and Agility 4. He makes an unarmed attack against Targetguy, doing his dim mak thing with the Death Touch spell. He rolls 4+8+2 dice and needs only one net hit (which is likely). Then he rolls Magic + Spellcasting to determine the actual damage done, which is resisted by Targetguy's Body as normal.
My question is: What happens if he isn't "merely seeking to touch an opponent?" What if he wants his punch to do damage?
Well, obviously he at least loses the +2 bonus to hit. By the first quote from p195, it looks like you can throw a normal unarmed attack and apparently even apply the damage from that as long as you get one net hit. Does this mean that you can throw out Stun damage from your punch in addition to the Physical damage from your Death Touch? That's a lotta penalties to visit upon someone with one attack.
More frighteningly, if your unarmed attack and touch spell do the same sort of damage, this means you can pump out a hell of a lot of homogenized hurting using only one Complex Action. A mystic adept with Killing Hands can Death Touch for a very lethal double-whammy or a normal magician can carry a Knockout along with his fists to make supersure his target goes night-night.
The damage output of this seems pretty massive in exchange for entering close combat in an otherwise ranged world. I'm all for giving the troll combat mage his due, but damn.
No, since striking in combat to do dmg is a complex action, and tossing a spell is a complex acton to.. choose either, not both..
According to page 195, you can do both. In fact, you have to do both in order to deliver a touch spell.
But they never mention doing dmg with that unarmed attack..
With the RAW, you can interpret it to mean you can to normal melee damage along with the touch spell damage. But as you said yourself, that makes a pretty powerful attack.
As a GM I interpret it to mean that it just takes the same type of roll as an unarmed attack, but it requires too much concentration on casting the spell to attempt to do harm with said attack.
Every GM I have played with has made a similar ruling.
As a GM I interpret it to mean that it just takes the same type of roll as an unarmed attack, but it requires too much concentration on casting the spell to attempt to do harm with said attack.
Every GM I have played with has made a similar ruling.
For that matter, since shock gloves have a fixed damage code does that mean we should always get +2 to hit with them?
Since it doesn't matter if an amped cybertroll hits you with them or a 5-year-old human girl, apparently the level of impact required to trigger the shock is irrelevant as well as the sheer damaging force behind the blow itself.
Since it doesn't matter if an amped cybertroll hits you with them or a 5-year-old human girl, apparently the level of impact required to trigger the shock is irrelevant as well as the sheer damaging force behind the blow itself.
yes they should, since they are a touch based attack.. tho you could punch someone to do dmg, and get the secondary effect of the gloves but doing so would not grant you the +2 dice..
| QUOTE (Nkari @ Dec 1 2005, 12:32 PM) |
| But they never mention doing dmg with that unarmed attack.. |
They say it's a "normal unarmed attack," and those do damage.
I wholly agree that this is a time when a GM should step in and make some declarations that the book hasn't. I'm just, as usual, looking for some canonical debate-grade ammo to make an informed decision either way. I can easily handwave on the grounds of it seeming too powerful but I dislike making arbitrary decisions (as do my players), no matter how balancing they initially appear.
I think shock gloves should be handled differently from touch spells. You should be able to choose between shock-punching and shock-touching.
Shock punch somebody and you can increase the damage your punch does with extra hits. The shock damage is set however.
Shock touch and while you don't do any Strength-based damage, you do get to increase the shock effect with extra hits.
Shock punch somebody and you can increase the damage your punch does with extra hits. The shock damage is set however.
Shock touch and while you don't do any Strength-based damage, you do get to increase the shock effect with extra hits.
Allowing shock gloves to do unarmed Str-based damage plus their own electrical damage sets a more solid precedent for double-whammy touch spells, though. 
Well there is a key difference between a touch spell and the shock delivered by shock gloves. The spell you have to cast (requiring at least some concentration to do so). The shock gloves automatically transfer the electric shock on contact without any, concentration other than the punch, necessary.
Agreed; yet you can make an unarmed attack (which consists of a serious of moves and countermoves) while spellcasting. Without penalties. Heck, even with bonuses if you just want to tap the guy.
| QUOTE (Slacker) |
| Well there is a key difference between a touch spell and the shock delivered by shock gloves. The spell you have to cast (requiring at least some concentration to do so). The shock gloves automatically transfer the electric shock on contact without any, concentration other than the punch, necessary. |
Yes, and I would rule that they don't work like a touch attack (+2 dice), because they require a "solid" hit to set off the shock. Otherwise every time your hand brushed yoru leg, you'd shock yourself, and every time you touched anythign (doorknob, gun, whatever) you'd blow a charge.
I say allow a full normal attack with a touch spell. Only complication I'd add is wether the touch you get when an opponent blocks you would count as a touch for the spell.
This will probably depend on how Targetguy is defending, using dodge skill would leave you out of luck but the rest depends on the martial art being used, a subject I am not very knowledgeable about (but seek to know more, see below).
To keep things simple I would say no hit, no spell, but feel free to hang my opinions by their neck in discussion.
This will probably depend on how Targetguy is defending, using dodge skill would leave you out of luck but the rest depends on the martial art being used, a subject I am not very knowledgeable about (but seek to know more, see below).
To keep things simple I would say no hit, no spell, but feel free to hang my opinions by their neck in discussion.
I like that reasoning, BlackHat. Thanks, and I'll use it with regards to shock gloves and shock cyberhands.
Ophis: Yeah, I could see parrying as preventing appropriate contact, at least in an abstract sense.
Ophis: Yeah, I could see parrying as preventing appropriate contact, at least in an abstract sense.
I think that the way the touch spells were intended to work was that the touch was part of the casting, but rather than trying to create a whole new resisted range touch casting test and game mechanic, the designers simply chose to use two existing tests to keep it 'simple' (oops looks like they blew that test).
Hmmm... I like the reasoning also Blackhat. But I guess I'd want to see how the shock gloves are designed. Are the gloves similar to those in the Ghost in the Shell series, where it's mainly on the knuckles and back of the hand where you have to score a solid hit before it triggers the capacitors to discharge into your opponent, or some other delivery type system?
As for the death touch spell, so it's a complex action. gotcha. Here's a thought once they come up with spell design rules for the fourth edition, what if someone designed a spell where you can sustain it, and makes it so that your hands become death touch hands (ala killing hands or shock hands). You have the minuses for sustaining it as you try your touch attempt.
As for the death touch spell, so it's a complex action. gotcha. Here's a thought once they come up with spell design rules for the fourth edition, what if someone designed a spell where you can sustain it, and makes it so that your hands become death touch hands (ala killing hands or shock hands). You have the minuses for sustaining it as you try your touch attempt.
When they come up with spell design rules, a lot of folks are going to want to swap their current buff spells (Increase Reflexes, Increase Attribute, Improved Invisibility) with self-only versions for lower drain.
Hey, I think you're all missing the worst possiblilty: Weapon foci shock gloves+ unarmed strike+death touch.
Ow.
Making virginal shock gloves from scratch would be rough, but ow.
Making virginal shock gloves from scratch would be rough, but ow.
Snip. Ignore me.
| QUOTE (nick012000 @ Dec 2 2005, 09:23 AM) |
| Hey, I think you're all missing the worst possiblilty: Weapon foci shock gloves+ unarmed strike+death touch. |
No, the worst case is mystic adept with Critical strike, improved unarmed combat, weapon foci shock gloves, delta grade rating 4 bone density and rating 4 muscle grafts, and casting death touch.
And he's a troll.
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| And he's a troll. |
Dragon!
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) | ||
No, the worst case is mystic adept with Critical strike, improved unarmed combat, weapon foci shock gloves, delta grade rating 4 bone density and rating 4 muscle grafts, and casting death touch. And he's a troll. |
Whatever you do DO NOT subscribe them to your commlink
| QUOTE (Azralon) | ||
Dragon! |
Dragons with Cyberware! that's a thread in and of itself.
But I was talking worst case PC wise.
In shadowrun, Worst case scenario is ALWAYS a dragon.
Heh, true.
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