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Mordrid Soud
just wondering how difficult would it be to come up with a system for designing fire arms, and vehicles in 4th. i ask since you could do it with 3rd (though the vehicle design wasn't exactly for the feint of heart).
Backgammon
How difficult? That's a strange question. It's not difficult, it just has to be done. Future sourcebooks will explain how. For now, just make stuff up and run in by your GM.
jervinator
As a GM, I have decided to spend a little free time comparing SR3 weapons to SR4 weapons and come up with my own conversion for the Cannon Companion stuff in the interim. The way I see it, it will be a few months before I can lay my grubby mitts onan OFFICIAL SR4 book for it.
So far, I think I have decrypted quite a bit of it, though I am somewhat perplexed that Holdouts and Light pistols both have a DV/AP of 4/-0 whereas in SR3 they were 4L and 6L. Also, it used to be that MGs went 7S,9S,10S; an MMG was 2 points better than an LMG and 1 point worse than an HMG. In SR4, they go 6P/-1, 6P/-2, 7P/-3, making the MMG is one point better than an LMG and 2 points worse than the HMG.
If anybody is interested, I might post my findings upon completion.
Kev
QUOTE (jervinator)
making the MMG is one point better than an LMG and 2 points worse than the HMG.

I don't think that's so hard to believe, since HMGs are .50 caliber while MMGs... well... aren't? MMGs would be mounted for vehicle-on-vehicle or vehicle-on-infantry combat, while HMGs are mounted for ground-to-aircraft combat. The HMGs should be noticeably more powerful.
jervinator
Honestly, yes. I personally feel that the SR4 stats are more correct than the SR3 ones. I see the LMG as an M249 type gun, easilly portable 5.56mm, the MMG as an M60, technically hip-firable 7.62mm, but better as a light vehicle mount weapon, and the HMG as an M2; a Troll might be able to hip-fire it but lesser beings shouldn't bother trying to handle the 12.7mm beast.
It's merely that a change like that makes conversion rules a little trickier to draw up.
Lagomorph
In general here's what I did for converting SR3 weapons to SR4.

So an old gun:
Ares MP III laser, 15M with Sniper ranges

D = DV 9 or 10
S = DV 7 or 8
M = DV 5 or 6
L = DV 3 or 4

So on that chart I'd probably give it a 5 to help balance out the AP which follows.

And with a TN of 15, I equated that pretty closely with the AP value. Since an AP of 15 is in general going to be better than an equivalent M damage gun with apds ammo, I'd give it a -5 or -6 AP.

So in the end, Ares MP III laser in a quick and dirty conversion, is a DV5(-5) weapon with sniper or long rifle ranges. If you feel it should be more powerful, make it a DV6(-6).

For vehicles, double or nearly double the armor and body, keep other options about the same. A good comparison is the Patrol-1 from both SR3 and SR4.

In general, as long as you have the reference books for the SR3 material, it shouldn't be terribly difficult to convert items over, as long as your GM takes a careful look at the converted item.
jervinator
What I've got is a little more involved. For weapons with an SR3 power of 14 or less, you take ( (Power +1) / 2 ), subtract 5, and then add 1 per damage level above Light. Invert the sign to get the base AP; it should be between 0 and -4.

For the DV, divide the SR3 power by 3 and round up, then add ( 2 - AP ). In some cases, like Sniper Rifles, that part may be a positive number; that's my intent. Then you add a modifier for weapon type:

0 : Holdout pistol, Light pistol, Machine pistol
1 : Heavy pistol, SMG
2 : Assault Rifle, LMG
3 : Shotgun, Sport Rifle, Sniper rifle, MMG
4 : HMG

This allows the 9M pistols to be 5P/-1 and 10M Ruger to be 6P/-2, and converts the rest nicely.

Too bad that Sakura is a Light Pistol and not a Machine Pistol. And what is up with the 4-round bursts? Why not 3 like other BF weapons??
Blaze
QUOTE (jervinator)
Too bad that Sakura is a Light Pistol and not a Machine Pistol. And what is up with the 4-round bursts? Why not 3 like other BF weapons??

Out of interest, where does it say the Sakura Fubuki fires four-round bursts?

Also, has anyone looked at high-velocity weapons yet? I ended up spending my lunch break thinking about this a while back, and here's what I came up with:

Previously SR's HV weapons have put a lot of near-uncontrollable lead into the air, sacrificing accuracy for sheer damage. However, the new long burst and narrow/wide rules sort of negate their bonuses a little. Therefore, I took a leaf out of the real-life P90 and MP7- rather than the wall-of-lead approach they fire higher-velocity rounds at standard rates, lowering the effective recoil impulse. Damage is reduced as the smaller and lighter bullets cause a smaller wound cavity, however this is made up for as the small, fast bullets penetrate armour easier.

Rules:
Hypervelocity weapons are available as machine pistols, SMGs, Assault Rifles and Machine Guns. They receive -1DV and -1AP in comparison to an average weapon in their class (eg. an Assault Rifle would be, taking the FN HAR as a base, 5P with -2AP). Short bursts may only be narrow, and take recoil as per SA (ie. -1 for second shot in a pass). Long bursts take only -2/-3 recoil penalties, full auto takes -5. No barrel-mounted accessories are allowed. Cost is roughly double that of a comparable regular weapon.

The net result is that while HV weapons don't have the raw DV, they make up for it with improved handling and better performance against armour out of the box. Their other downside is the lack of barrel mods- you can't silence them (making the bullets subsonic defeats the purpose) and it's difficult to cram a lot of recoil compensation onto them. A HVAR will still be outperformed by an Alpha with Gas Vent III and a shock pad.

Any suggestions?
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Blaze)
Their other downside is the lack of barrel mods- you can't silence them (making the bullets subsonic defeats the purpose) [...]

Most sound suppressors attached to the muzzle of a small arms will not slow down the bullet at all. In fact, they often end up increasing the velocity slightly, since they give the propellant gases a bit more time and space in which to push the bullet forward.

You can suppress firearms which fire supersonic projectiles -- the purpose is not so much to evade detection altogether, since the projectile ripping through the air will probably be heard, but to hide your own position by reducing/eliminating the *crack* of firing a weapon (and replacing it with a less loud and less obvious noise) and the muzzle flash.

If you're at all interested in how sound suppressors work, I suggest reading Raygun's excellent article on them.
CrimsonHawk
frown.gif well I finally figured out whats going on with my GM his thoughts is bringing the 3rd edition history over to 4th edition so for instance (Guns are HIGHLY illegal and theres a major crack down on them) which I guess explains the 5x to 10x the book cost for them. so being a drone runner I guess I need to keep all the guns I kill from my missions and incorporate them into my drones because I cant see putting a gun that cost me 19k in a 2k drone.


I asked about designing a gun for instance if I got the scemats from the WWW and reverse engineer a gun only suited for drones IE no stock exec... he informed me it would triple or more the price for that gun to me (5x to 10x already) so I guess i'm stuck in a catch 22 D if I do and D if I don't.

since I don't see anything in RAW to counter this atm


frown.gif let me know your thoughts thx
Austere Emancipator
If your GM really hates firearms that much, just make yourself a spandex-wearing, mullet-sporting, Dikoted katana-wielding 80s ninja. Apparently that and mages is all your GM wants to see in his game.
Shrike30
If your GM is charging that much for guns, one of the first things you should do is have your group mage thump a couple of beat cops (or rentacops, or corporate cops... someone with guns) and arm the rest of the group. 5-10x the listed cost for guns is ridiculous if you're not in a Bug City scenario.

For the record, even at 10x cost, the L36 (IIRC... whatever the supercheap light pistol is) still only costs you 1500 nuyen.gif ... not a stupidly expensive piece compared to the rest, at that point.
booklord
"Six men came to kill me one time. The best of 'em carried this. It's a Callahan full-bore autolock, customized trigger, double cartridge, thorough-gage. This is my very favorite gun....I call her Vera." -Jayne
Shadow
notworthy.gif


Now that was a nice rifle.

In reality building a gun is just not that easy. You just can't sit down with a pen and paper, whip out a design, and then run over to kinkos and have them run one off for you. You need a full on machine shop with precision parts.

The only reason I can think to even make a gun as a Runner would be to have a completely untraceable gun. In the sense that it was never ID'd or coded, or sold. Other than that, there are plenty of off-the-shelf guns that do the job very well.
Shrike30
Building a high-quality gun requires precision parts. You could build a WW2 Sten-type submachinegun in a high-school metal shop class, if you had the know-how.

There's actually some pretty interesting stuff out there on how to build your own firearms. It's not as difficult as you might think. Getting it to be as accurate and reliable as one of the existing manufacturers is another story, but you can put together something that goes "bang" repeatedly without a stupid amount of effort...
ShadowDragon8685
It dosen't have to be a perfect gun, or even a good gun.


It just has to be good enough to let you kill someone who has a good gun so you can take his good gun.
Kronk2
is there any real difference for vehicles? and what the heck do I do with the cf and load stats?
Adam
QUOTE (CrimsonHawk)
frown.gif well I finally figured out whats going on with my GM his thoughts is bringing the 3rd edition history over to 4th edition so for instance (Guns are HIGHLY illegal and theres a major crack down on them) which I guess explains the 5x to 10x the book cost for them.

I'm not sure where your GM is getting this, but I wouldn't call firearms "highly illegal" in the Sixth World -- certainly not in the typical settings that most 3rd Edition material was published for.
eidolon
Ha. I had a post written to answer the OP before I thought to check the time hacks. Oops!

Kronk2, you might have better luck getting specific answers if you create a new post for your question. Not that there's anything wrong with trying to fit it into an existing thread, but this one's kinda old and reading through the whole thing might keep people from focusing on what you need.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Blaze)
Out of interest, where does it say the Sakura Fubuki fires four-round bursts?

In the BBB under the weapon's description. it can only fire a narrow burst in this mode though & has the recoil of a normal Semiautomatic (-1) for the second burst.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (SR4 pg 307)
The “Cherry-blossom Storm�
is the flagship for Yamaha’s new
line of electronic weapons that feature
no moving parts. Rather than
a standard magazine, the bullets
are stacked in-line in each of the
four barrels, allowing the firing of
ultra-fast short bursts. The Fubuki
may only fire narrow bursts (not wide), but burst recoil is
handled like SA recoil (–1 Recoil on the second burst each
Action Phase only). Includes an integral folding stock.


I don't think that necessarily says what you say it says. wink.gif

So your interpretation of that passage is that each time the weapon is fired it fires one bullet from each of the four barrels? Is that what you're saying?
Butterblume
That's plainly wrong. A burst from the Sakura Fubuki is still 3 rounds. There is no evidence whatsoever to even indicate otherwise.

In fact, previous discussions have concluded that each burst comes from the same barrel.
Moon-Hawk
That was my understanding of it as well, Butterblume.
Still, I wish they had made each barrel hold either 9 or 12 rounds, rather than 10. Things just would've been simpler.
Butterblume
So true.

I allowed one of my players to use custom barrels with 12 shoots each, for a little premium, and he seems quite happy with it biggrin.gif.
Moon-Hawk
That's cool. Did you hit him with a concealability penalty for it, or let that slide?
Butterblume
Nah, I let it slide. To much unknown variables to justify something like that.
eidolon
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
That was my understanding of it as well, Butterblume.
Still, I wish they had made each barrel hold either 9 or 12 rounds, rather than 10. Things just would've been simpler.

That indeed sounds ripe for the old Bic fix.
Wakshaani
I believe that teh Fubaki has four barrels of 10 rounds each because it only fires a Full Burst (Narrow), thus, "Metal Storm".

I *think*.

Now, if it only does Burst Fire, well, then conk someone on the head for me. smile.gif

As for inventing your own guns, you can always wing it a bit. For example:

Shiawase Elements
(Hold Out Pistol)

Damage: 4P
AP: -
Mode: SS
RC: -
Ammo: 4 (cy)
Availability: 2R
Cost: 50Y

The Shiawase Elements, aka "The Piece of Shiawase" or "POS" is the bottom-line pistol for sale today. Manufactured in bulk from substandard steel in war-ravaged China, the Elements gets its name from the four-chamber cylander that feeds the revolver, each etched with a symbol for fire, water, air, and earth. (Shiawase made this weapon for sale in the innercity of the CAS and UCAS, which is why it matches 'classical; elements rather than the Chinese five.)

The Elements is a simple snub-nosed revolver, known for a poor alignment and even bending slightly when fired too much. It is, however, small enough to hide and cheap enough to be utterly disposable ... in point of fact, they're sold in vending machines all across North America. If you need personal defense, NOW, then Shiawase Armaments is there for you.

Note that the Elements is made of metal, so shows up on scanners, and, as a revolver, will not accept most upgrades. The Elements is a famously unreliable weapon, and, as such, it requires one less '1' to glitch than normal when firing it.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Butterblume)
That's plainly wrong. A burst from the Sakura Fubuki is still 3 rounds. There is no evidence whatsoever to even indicate otherwise.

In fact, previous discussions have concluded that each burst comes from the same barrel.

...it was more interpeting that the four inline barrels fired simultaneously. In a way that concept could make sense since the weapon is fired electronically. This is why it would only be capable of firing a narrow burst and would explain the low recoil factor.

FAQ on this?
WhiskeyMac
I always thought that the Sakura fired 4 round bursts as well. Just a side effect of having 4 barrels and firing electronically, I guess. I also thought that it sounded cooler because it's nickname is Cherry-Blossom Storm so why not have it spitting out a little extra to get that name.

What exactly does electronic firing do for firearms anyways? Can it make ammo capacity go way up or what?
Jaid
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
I always thought that the Sakura fired 4 round bursts as well. Just a side effect of having 4 barrels and firing electronically, I guess. I also thought that it sounded cooler because it's nickname is Cherry-Blossom Storm so why not have it spitting out a little extra to get that name.

What exactly does electronic firing do for firearms anyways? Can it make ammo capacity go way up or what?

apparently it gives you burst fire with the same recoil penalty as semiautomatic, and not much more.
yoippari
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology...aw/1281426.html
Seems like that is what the sakura is supposed to be based off of. There should be a youtube video out there, look for metal storm. The low recoil is because before any recoil is percieved the entire burst has left the barrel(s).

After a little more google-fu it seems that while the initial burst has no recoil felt until after the burst is over, when you actually do feel the recoil it is pretty strong. So instead of recoil adding up as you pump 3-10 rounds out the barrel you get it all in one big jolt.
Butterblume
What yoippari said (and linked wink.gif).

Also, consider this: if your burst fires a shot from each barrel, you'll hit the target with each bullet impact a bit vertically apart (because of the way the barrels are arranged). Not, as it theoretically should be for a narrow burst, at the same point.

And, if all shoots for a burst comes from the same barrel, there is no reason to disallow different ammunition types in the different barrels. Switching from gel rounds to exex is just a free action away cool.gif.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Butterblume)
Not, as it theoretically should be for a narrow burst, at the same point.

The odds against that happening are quite staggering, no matter how you fire that burst. Even if you eliminated the effects of recoil, there are so many causes of inaccuracy in a weapon like the YSF that 4 consecutive rounds fired at max RoF from one barrel would not impact much closer to each other at 20+ meters than 1 shot from each barrel fired at the same intervals.
yoippari
QUOTE
And, if all shoots for a burst comes from the same barrel, there is no reason to disallow different ammunition types in the different barrels. Switching from gel rounds to exex is just a free action away .


Somewhere I can't find now there was a video where a 4 barreled grenade launcher first spits out one grenade from a barrel, then two more in semi rapid succession though with plenty of time for recoil. Then the other three barrels each fire a single grenade. They were all dummies but no reason there couldn't have been flashbangs in one, and frag grenades in the other three.
Kesslan
QUOTE (yoippari)
QUOTE
And, if all shoots for a burst comes from the same barrel, there is no reason to disallow different ammunition types in the different barrels. Switching from gel rounds to exex is just a free action away .


Somewhere I can't find now there was a video where a 4 barreled grenade launcher first spits out one grenade from a barrel, then two more in semi rapid succession though with plenty of time for recoil. Then the other three barrels each fire a single grenade. They were all dummies but no reason there couldn't have been flashbangs in one, and frag grenades in the other three.

The only reason in RPGs that you dont have mixed ammo is because it's a pain in the ass to keep track of it. It also causes issues when it's a multi barreled weapon capable of firing more than one barrel at the same time. Like a previous mention of loading an elephant gun with one EX-EX and one APDS round. It isnt really realistic to use both rules at the same time, and there's no real rule mechanism to handle each round sepereately. And attempts to HR it lead to either a very weak gun in such a situation, or one that effectively 'instagibs' trolls.

Cases like pump action shotguns etc. It's abit easier, since your only firing one round at a time etc. But the moment you mix ammo in a multi barrled or burst/full auto firing weapon you realy get into alot of unecessary complexity. Sure you could come up with arguably 'realistic' rules. But chances are, balance wise it'll be so uber overpowered it wouldnt be funny, that or downright usless.

And then to top it off it bogs down combat that much more. Ultra complex rules are fine and very fast when it's an automatic coded system. But it's alot slower when it's a pen and paper style of game.
yoippari
I'm not seeing the issue. Have one 10rnd barrel be loaded with stick-n-shock and the rest loaded with regular. You have to keep track of individual barrels ammo anyway since they are all seperate "magazines". Just say no mixed burst. It isn't like 3rnd bursts add up to 40 anyway. Of course if you rule that the 4 barreled gun fires 4rnd bursts then that whole argument dies.
Eryk the Red
Actually, there's really no need at all to keep track of the ammo in each barrel, unless you really care. Far as I'm concerned, it holds 40 rounds and needs to be reloaded once those 40 are spent. I would never bother with the paperwork to track each barrel's ammo.
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