As a GM I at least try to persuade my players to be carefull, planning, and at least a little crazy. I don't like characters who are played as nothing more then bullit sponge hack and slashers.
One thing that's come to my attention is a Phenomenon known as "Cook-Off", when temperature in the chamber has risen to such a point that each and every round that enters the chamber fires off by itself without any coaxing from the firing pin. I.E. Joe has burned two clips through his trusty rifle, and inserts his third, jacks the slide, and sights up on a vid camera in control room, pulls trigger, round fires off but temp in chamber rises those few degrees to start Cook-Off, Joe is now spraying the entire control room with Lead, seriously upsetting the Decker/Hacker, and scaring the wits out of his mage.
So I'm wondering how you folks, as GM's would handle Cook-Off.
How could player in question recieve warning if it's about to happen?
At what point would it happen?
What all happens when it happens?
Side Note: what's happening Chummers, I've missed y'all, blew knee out at work so have oppurtunity to spend quality time on rump.
Full Version: Lead Hose
I've blown through *lots* of ammo with various AR's (often with tracers too) and never experienced it. Consequently, in the game world, we don't even think about it.
I think it requires much higher RoF than Shadowrun (at least 3rd edition) supports.
7 actions * 18 bullets / 3 seconds = much less than safe RoF limits on modern weaponry.
7 actions * 18 bullets / 3 seconds = much less than safe RoF limits on modern weaponry.
i saw it happen once, with an M-249. the guy decided he was too cool to change his barrel in between drums, and halfway through the fourth drum, his weapon wouldn't stop firing. luckily it was at a range, and his sergeant just broke the ammo belt.
I don't know but it brings up the question how fast can a automatic weapon in SR fire, you can't say 10 per round when somone with reflexes can shoot 20, 30, 40, 50.
It'd take a hell of a lot more than two mags to cook off.
In WW2 the german MG42 tended to come wth spare barrels and asbestos pads that the crews would change out regularly. in Saving Private Ryan they even plan for that, the fight when the medic dies. Modern guns are not going to be anything like that vulnerable. The real way to keep players from running amok with a lead stream is simple. "Hey Rambo, how much ammo are you carrying?"
If we were to go through 3 mags in a single room we'd be way low on our ammo.usually, unless we know it's a battlefield run (we do some work in CFS against imperial forces) , we carry maybe 4 loads for each gun.
If we were to go through 3 mags in a single room we'd be way low on our ammo.usually, unless we know it's a battlefield run (we do some work in CFS against imperial forces) , we carry maybe 4 loads for each gun.
the M-249 does come with spare barrels that you're supposed to change regularly. i believe there are other modern weapons that work the same way, though i can't recall them off the top of my head.
My GPMG came with a spare barrel, but I have never gotten ammo cook-off even after my barrel began to glow and that's like after 750 rounds.
Wouldn't you need to worry about the heat warping your barrel and throwing off your aim if it starts visibly glowing from the heat?
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| i believe there are other modern weapons that work the same way, though i can't recall them off the top of my head. |
Most GPMGs and many LMGs and HMGs. Changing a red hot HMG barrel can be an interesting excercise.
| QUOTE (nick012000) |
| Wouldn't you need to worry about the heat warping your barrel and throwing off your aim if it starts visibly glowing from the heat? |
Precision is not generally what one turns to a machinegun for.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) | ||
Precision is not generally what one turns to a machinegun for. |
Yeah, but you tend to want to be able to hit something, and if all of your bullets are hitting the ground 10 feet in front of you because your barrel's warped...
If you have fired so many rounds as to warp your barrel and are still firing, you are already dead.
And if you're fighting the Liberian Army?
As humorous as those pictures are, probably the worst part about every one is that nobody is utilizing proper cover!
Hell, I know some professional sons-of-bitches who've been known to use the flamboyant sideways-rifle "Glock Foh-Tay"....only thing is, most of their body was behind good cover when they did it
Hell, I know some professional sons-of-bitches who've been known to use the flamboyant sideways-rifle "Glock Foh-Tay"....only thing is, most of their body was behind good cover when they did it
never thought about this situation ever happening in my game, thanks for the idea.
OMFG... WTF are those guys doing? Man, I think I'd laugh myself to death if those jokers were shooting at me.
| QUOTE (nick012000) |
| Wouldn't you need to worry about the heat warping your barrel and throwing off your aim if it starts visibly glowing from the heat? |
That's why the germans regulalry changed out barrells, even in the middle of a fight.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| OMFG... WTF are those guys doing? Man, I think I'd laugh myself to death if those jokers were shooting at me. |
You do that while I take cover, just in case...
Flashbacks to City of God…
~J
~J
Shooting in a crazy stance is okay, if it's purpose is to keep as much of you behind cover as possible while laying down some lead.
Quick question, why did the guy's magazine spring blow? Is it because the whole magazine was shitty, or did he fuck it up with the duct tape?
Quick question, why did the guy's magazine spring blow? Is it because the whole magazine was shitty, or did he fuck it up with the duct tape?
May have just banged it too hard (i.e. landed on it) when he jumped prone. Chances are it was overloaded to begin with, which certainly wouldn't help things.
Consistent abuse and overloading probably would have caused it to blow like that.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) | ||
Precision is not generally what one turns to a machinegun for. |
I had a guy in my platoon who could fire off a short burst from the gimpy and make hits at 800m with no trouble at all. L7s (Mag 58s) are plenty accurate, especially in MMG role with a C2 site and a dialed in range. Hell, I wasn't the best shot, but I could still bounce the rounds into the dead zone and make the enemy miserable with an L7.
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox) | ||
That's why the germans regulalry changed out barrells, even in the middle of a fight. |
That's why we used to change out barrels every belt. Fire a few short bursts, move, set up, fire a few short bursts, move, set, fire a few short bursts, move, change barrel, load new belt, move etc...
This preserves the barrels, and trust me, you want to preserve those barrels! So that when you do end up deep innit you can abuse them a little and still get performance. By the way, its pretty easy to get a gimpy barrel to glow firing live. Try getting her cherry red with the BFA on!
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| OMFG... WTF are those guys doing? Man, I think I'd laugh myself to death if those jokers were shooting at me. |
Heh, bullets are bullets, do your thing, do it right and you live through the fight.
Just because these guys appear to be a bunch of clowns pissing about with firearms does not mean you can stop taking them seriously. They are still carrying bloody rifles, LMGs and RPGs. That' plenty serious enough for me to send the lance naik with the gun crew to the left and high while me and the havildar take the rest of the men and put together a line slanting left forward right back with orders for the gun to fall silent and reposition right forward once we hit the markers with the flank right. Of course by the time we hit the markers, there would be a paucity of Liberian Army.
In response to Weredigo, Cook off isn't something that's going to happen to a runner unless he's steadily firing a beltfed weapon. Joe's never going to have to worry about it. The pause in semi automatic firing is enough to prevent any problems (unless he steadily shoots for minutes on end, and it's pretty rare for a SR combat to last more than a minute or two worth of rounds). Similar thing for an automatic.
Some LMGs fire from an open bolt for this very reason.
Open bolt means the bolt is locked to the rear between shots. This reduces accuracy somewhat, but improves cooling. The only time a round has a chance to cook off is just after you pulled the trigger anyway.
Mechanical problems can also cause a runaway gun. Its a novel way for a gun to jam.
Open bolt means the bolt is locked to the rear between shots. This reduces accuracy somewhat, but improves cooling. The only time a round has a chance to cook off is just after you pulled the trigger anyway.
Mechanical problems can also cause a runaway gun. Its a novel way for a gun to jam.
| QUOTE (Ed_209a) |
| Some LMGs fire from an open bolt for this very reason. Open bolt means the bolt is locked to the rear between shots. This reduces accuracy somewhat, but improves cooling. The only time a round has a chance to cook off is just after you pulled the trigger anyway. Mechanical problems can also cause a runaway gun. Its a novel way for a gun to jam. |
I thought most LMGs and GPMGs fired from the open bolt these days. At least almost all the belt fed ones do.
American weapons are, i cant speak for russian or European, but the 249, the 240G and the M2 are all open bolt weapons. I think the RPK, (the russian equivalent to the 249, 240G and old M60) is a closed bolt system because of it being an AK47/74 writ large and belt or drum magazine fed.
| QUOTE (warrior_allanon) |
| American weapons are, i cant speak for russian or European, but the 249, the 240G and the M2 are all open bolt weapons. I think the RPK, (the russian equivalent to the 249, 240G and old M60) is a closed bolt system because of it being an AK47/74 writ large and belt or drum magazine fed. |
I bet you're right, those with a rifle in the ancestry tend to fire from closed bolt, although the LSW had the option of both.
I think that the full magazine/belt blowout is mostly a problem in weapons that haven't been maintained. Once an Army officer told me that an AK style rifle in his collection had some kind of damage where even though it was supposed to only fire in semi automatic mode sometimes the whole magazine would just discharge.
It's one of those mechanical problems that is probably too detailed to be well implemented by the rules; other such problems you probably couldn't implement would be a hangfire, or maybe the theoretical issue of your primer detonating but not the rest of your powder and your getting a round stuck somewhere in your barrel. Or the firing pin on your shotgun breaking from too much dry fire.
Which is why we need to go nuts and make a super realistic patch for the shadowrun firearms, so it can be so detailed these things can be implemented. :3
It's one of those mechanical problems that is probably too detailed to be well implemented by the rules; other such problems you probably couldn't implement would be a hangfire, or maybe the theoretical issue of your primer detonating but not the rest of your powder and your getting a round stuck somewhere in your barrel. Or the firing pin on your shotgun breaking from too much dry fire.
Which is why we need to go nuts and make a super realistic patch for the shadowrun firearms, so it can be so detailed these things can be implemented. :3
Wind shear on individual shotgun pellets, here we come.
After SR3R comes SR3R: Cluster Edition. The first chapter is setting up the cluster you're going to do all game calculations on.
~J
After SR3R comes SR3R: Cluster Edition. The first chapter is setting up the cluster you're going to do all game calculations on.
~J
Well, it wouldn't be too bad for a computer game...
It's my dream that someone sits down and makes some kind of ultra-realistic FPS video game, using the resources inherent in a computer to crunch endless amounts of probabilities and numbers.
As a "realistic" simulation, the game would probably also have to go beyond firearms operations and deal with issues like environmental effects on your character (dehydration, amount of food carried, electrolyte loss pending weather conditions), and it would be a lot of planning to crawl through the jungle and get to point X where your target was and the FPS aspect of the game would kick in.
That's my big, wishful dream, in any case.
As a "realistic" simulation, the game would probably also have to go beyond firearms operations and deal with issues like environmental effects on your character (dehydration, amount of food carried, electrolyte loss pending weather conditions), and it would be a lot of planning to crawl through the jungle and get to point X where your target was and the FPS aspect of the game would kick in.
That's my big, wishful dream, in any case.
Don't expect it anytime soon. Never mind processing power, you'd need an entirely new kind of interface to handle things like food and water in anything but a horribly clunky manner.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Dec 25 2005, 06:24 PM) |
| It's my dream that someone sits down and makes some kind of ultra-realistic FPS video game, using the resources inherent in a computer to crunch endless amounts of probabilities and numbers. As a "realistic" simulation, the game would probably also have to go beyond firearms operations and deal with issues like environmental effects on your character (dehydration, amount of food carried, electrolyte loss pending weather conditions), and it would be a lot of planning to crawl through the jungle and get to point X where your target was and the FPS aspect of the game would kick in. That's my big, wishful dream, in any case. |
With a detailed land-nav class in tutorial mode
Well, I was thinking that you'd start out in a "planning" mode, where you'd plot a route over a map, and manage supplies, and that it would only shift to FPS mode when you entered into a combat situation. So, the health and planning issues wouldn't have to be implemented through the FPS engine.
| QUOTE (FrostyNSO) | ||
With an detailed land-nav class in tutorial mode |
I'm pretty fascinated by that at this point in time. Right now I'm doing Peace Corps service in Pohnpei (in the Federated States of Micronesia), and a couple weeks ago I actually climbed up a very sheer mountain through dense jungle with no trail. I was amazed at how difficult and hazardous it was. At some points in time, the incline was so steep that for an hour or more I couldn't walk normally, but had to basically use my arms to pass myself from tree to tree so as not to slide down the side of the mountain. There was so much underbrush and debris that running of any kind would have been impossible, and even though I spent most of the time carefully looking straight down for a good place to step I still slipped and fell on rocks and sometimes my foot would actually punch through decayed plant matter and fall into a deep hole.
I managed the 5 hour or so expedition OK, since I've been keeping in shape for my athletic activities. But, the people taking me told me that the last time they took some Americans up on the mountain, the women had started crying. I totally believed them.
Later on I found an old map of the island, and looked at all the nice steep contour lines indicating the place where I was walking.
So, yeah...the aspect of planning an overland trip through rough terrain is something that I don't really know too much about, but which seems pretty interesting to me right now.
I don't think people would enjoy it in a videogame. Most people I know get pissed if their character has to run for more than a minute following an automap, much less having to calibrate a compass and worry about obstables over a 40k insertion.
It would be very specialized in terms of audience, yes.
But that's what improvements in dev tools are for—the easier it is to make a game, the more likely a game targeting a very small audience will be able to get made.
~J
But that's what improvements in dev tools are for—the easier it is to make a game, the more likely a game targeting a very small audience will be able to get made.
~J
not to mention that, food consumption/carrying has been folded out of most RPG's that i know of, and if they're not in an RPG video game, it's unlikely to see them in a FPs.
Well, anything with this degree of micromanagement would almost certainly be an RPG, simply because in a FPS you won't have the emotional attatchment to the generic character as much as you would with your own RPG character.
And don't forget to let the character see his own body in first person mode. The "I have no feet" convention of FPS's is a pet peeve of mine, and highly unrealistic to boot.
And don't forget to let the character see his own body in first person mode. The "I have no feet" convention of FPS's is a pet peeve of mine, and highly unrealistic to boot.
There's no excuse for it now, but when it started it made perfect sense. Why waste precious processor time making realistic feet when you can spend the effort on stuff that actually affects gameplay?
~J
~J
I've only seen cook-offs from belt-fed weapons. Never even heard of a magazine-fed weapon cooking-off.
However, I would only have a weapon cook-off if someone is firing a belt-fed weapon with no appropriate skill. Basic training for firing belt fed weapons like the M-60 and SAW teachs soldiers to let off the trigger every seven rounds ("I have just fired off seven rounds").
A cook-off could be the result of a glitch if using SR4 rules as well.
However, I would only have a weapon cook-off if someone is firing a belt-fed weapon with no appropriate skill. Basic training for firing belt fed weapons like the M-60 and SAW teachs soldiers to let off the trigger every seven rounds ("I have just fired off seven rounds").
A cook-off could be the result of a glitch if using SR4 rules as well.
...or a flavorful way to resolve a successful use of the Accident power on an individual with an FA firearm...
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