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Lazarus
I was just curious as to how your characters have tried to make money in SR?

I've had characters that tried to make money almost any way they could. Never did straight up organlegging, well at least we didn't go out with that express purpose, but I will say it helps to have an Organlegging Street Doc as a Contact.

"Ah yeah, hey what's up Doc, yeah we just killed like 14 Red Samurai... Uhh huh... yeah just like 3 minutes ago. Ok same place as last time. 40% on the cyberware. Sweet! See you in thirty!"

Now I have played all kinds of characters that would give up their money (Had an Ork Physad who gave almost all his money to "his people" in the Ork Underground) Some wouldn't do organlegging period, even selling the dead foes who attacked them first. Then I had characters who would pimp, sell BTLs, do wetwork, run protection rackets with Organized Crime, you name it.

Basically I know that you won't get to retirement working for Johnsons. <"Wait! You're going to pay me 20,000 nuyen to break into the Arcology? Sweet can I roll my Neg. Skill to see if I can get 500 Nuyen per success?> Just wondering what different things you guys did to make phat cash, or even better what things your characters wouldn't do?

Thanks in Advance
Dawnshadow
Selling "Trophies" from particularly nasty opponents: A force 6 sword weapon focus, a force 10 unique focus, photos of the runes covering another..

Selling bits of paranormal opponents (Not recommended for normal/low powered games.. the expensive bits are attached to nasty, nasty things like dragons)

Regular paychecks for training and leading a security/runner force for a midsized local business.

Selling cyber from bodies.

Extraction work.

Random salvage/looting has netted us a lot too.


Edit: Erm, forgot what characters wouldn't do. Depends on the characters. Most wouldn't kill other PCs -- for money. Some would do it for pleasure. Others would do it for revenge, self preservation. But only one would do it for money.. and that was a unique circumstance.. he was being put on retainer to kill the PC.. by the PC.

Sell out dependents.

Anything liable to cause destruction to the planet/metahumanity as a whole. They're prone to spend money, blood, sweat and tears to prevent that.
Sharaloth
My old play group used to make million nuyen windfalls, and so weren't concerned so much with making extra cash by organlegging or anything like that. On top of that one of the lead characters was a highly moral person who, while she would kill people when she needed to to get the job done, would not do assassinations directly, and would try to use nonlethal force whenever possible, and make her teammates do the same. So organlegging was out. As was pimping, btl's and other high-revenue areas. Organized crime kept pissing us off, so we didn't really deal with them.

On the other hand, most of the team were sociopaths of one sort of another, only held back by this lead moralistic character. When she left the team to work for Lofwyr things kinda went wild. Last game it had gotten to the point where the team leader, a powerful mage/decker, had stopped using much money at all, since he pretty much just stole what he wanted, and bartered his ill gotten gains to others or sold it through a fence if he actually needed to pay for anything. The only major non-run moneymaking scheme he really did towards the end was when we were doing a lucrative run for a certain corp, he liquidated a bunch of assets and bought a chunk of stock in that corp to take advantage of the jump in price their leg up on the competition would bring.

One of my earliest characters was surreptitiously working for both the Yakuza and a shadowy AA corporation. None of the other characters noticed that he seemed to live in a low-end apartment but drove a Westwind 2000 Turbo when not on runs.

Then there was the Magician-Adept Loki worshipper who used to get spirits to use confusion on random passers-by and then convince them to let him inspect their credsticks with his stolen credstick-reader (which conveniently withdrew a large sum from their bank accounts and put it into his). This was only for chump change, of course, but he never used his own money when buying drinks.
Mr.Platinum
#1 successfuly completing missions.
#2 Sell Nova Coke.
#3 Sell Information on my Fellow runners
#4 Sell out to your Local criminal Org.
Gerald Fitzgerald
I had a character with cyber eyes and recording equipment. On the particularly interesting runs, I would sell the first-hand footage to a reporter contact of mine. Each run would get me 2k or 3k extra, depending on the action.

Looking back, there's a lot of potential for that to come back and bite me on the ass, but it never did.
FrostyNSO
Oh my god. Is this a thread on how to get yourself busted or something?

Renraku Exec: "What happened to that squad of Red Samurai we sent to take out that seal down the research facility? Do we know who was involved?

Renraku Company Man: "We're not sure yet, but a contact of mine mentioned a street doc who just got a hold of good deal of wired reflex systems. We'll start there. I also put the word out on the mage's power focus, if anybody tries to fence it in Seattle, I'll know."
FrostyNSO
That's another reason I pay the players more than they would make by boosting Americars and selling them to chop-shops.

The PC's are supposed to be professionals, not a group of adventurers from D&D.
BookWyrm
#1. Completeing the mission within spec.
#2. NOT screwing up.
#3. Living to make the rendesvous ON TIME.
#4. NOT screwing over the wrong people. Which means almost everybody.
Trax
If you don't want to screw the wrong people, don't be a Shadowrunner.
Kyoto Kid
For Leela, it was her concert appearances. Of course, after seeing how much she made from her gala debut at Royal Festival Hall, Shadowrunning became a bit moot & she eventually retired.

"It may not be as thrilling but it sure beats having your butt shot at all the time."
--Leela G.
stevebugge
Went Semi-Legit. Parlayed some run cash in to my own sec company and take a lot of investigative jobs for Insurance Companies, Fee + Commission on voided claims + Reasonable Expenses.
SL James
Uh, shadowrunning?
nick012000
Save up enough to start an orichalcum factory.
Westiex
One of my characters started doing independant runs - we're talking 300 or so karma, plus a few good contacts used. Basically she orgainised to hit shops that were into selling medium end decks. I was planning on hitting another facility that had the promise of some high end sthick, however it was surrounded in monowire so I put that off to another day.
Crusher Bob
Any place surrounded by monowire becomes target #1. Who cares what's inside, just steal all their monowire, that stuff is expensive.
Oracle
*g* Stealing monowire is a great way to make GMs cry. ^^
warrior_allanon
oh lets see we've done:

ghoul hunting
sold each other out to the mob, then killed the mobsters (characters had a 12 million bounty on each of our heads after the miss world run)
Invested in the stock market
used B/R skills to build stuff to sell
sale of various stolen items from runs, not to mention dead enemies weapons.
bank robbery in the bahamas
wetwork
extractions
basically every SR adventure up to Dragon hunt, (freed a comrade instead of taking the 50,000)

i think thats about it other than in one game we had an AI decking for us and hit the ZO bank, but that was and endgame for us.........just kidding, biggrin.gif but we did invade, take control of, and destroy an Ares Space Station for Cross Tech.

ShadowDragon8685
I think that the best bet for runners looking to make quote-unquote safe money would be to set up an efficient factory belt system. Steal cars GTA-style in the rougher C and D neighborhoods, zip them out to Z-zone areas where you're pretty much immune to the 'Star unless you shot the Mayor, cool down the heat yourself by using your teams' electronics and car B/R skills, and then sell them however you can. smile.gif

And Frosty? Repeat after me. "Vengeance Pays Poorly." Corps are monolithic, soulless entities that only care about the bottom nuyen. Let's add up a cost/benefit analysis from the corp's PoV, shall we?

Cost:
14 dead Red Sammies and all their gear:
:: -80,000 nuyen training each.
:: -600,000 nuyen cyber each.
Target of the original Shadowrun (Let's say it was something medium-key, like stealing the plans for their new cyberdeck upgrade): 26.6 Billion nuyen.gif
Cost of tracking down members of Shadowrunning team: 40,000 nuyen.gif each. (Assuming five-man team.)
Cost of wetwork on five members of Shadorunning team: 100,000 nuyen.gif each.
Subtotal:
00,008,400,000
00,001,120,000
26,600,000,000
00,000,200,000
00,000,500,000


Total:
26,610,220,000

Benefit:
Vengeance

Now, you know what I see when I look there? I see 700,000 nuyen.gif that can be trimmed off that final figure. In fact, I see the following figure scenrio that can be done with that last 700,000 nuyen.gif

Hire novahot Shadowrunners (possibly the same ones who hit you,) to make Run on your opposition. Cost: 700,000 nuyen.gif (Give or take, depending on your Johnson's skillz.)
Benefit: Stealing opponant's plans worth 28,600,000,000 nuyen.gif to you. Fringe benefit: Your opponant likely takes multimillion nuyen.gif worth of damage, too.

Simply put, there's no reason for corps to wage vengeance. You're taking an impersonal thing (We got hit by a Shadowrun; deal,) and making into an impersonal thing (We got hit by a Shadowrun, now we're going to hunt down all the Shadowrunners and their families and torture them in hideous ways before we kill them, which will set their friends up to start nibbling away at our nuyen.gif.)
tisoz
QUOTE (Oracle)
*g* Stealing monowire is a great way to make GMs cry. ^^

Or quit running a game for those players. I've had it happen.
Oracle
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Dec 22 2005, 01:49 PM)
I think that the best bet for runners looking to make quote-unquote safe money would be to set up an efficient factory belt system. Steal cars GTA-style in the rougher C and D neighborhoods, zip them out to Z-zone areas where you're pretty much immune to the 'Star unless you shot the Mayor, cool down the heat yourself by using your teams' electronics and car B/R skills, and then sell them however you can. smile.gif

The criminal syndicates doing exactly that will be absolutely pleased about the new competitors...
mmu1
QUOTE (Oracle @ Dec 22 2005, 09:21 AM)
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Dec 22 2005, 01:49 PM)
I think that the best bet for runners looking to make quote-unquote safe money would be to set up an efficient factory belt system. Steal cars GTA-style in the rougher C and D neighborhoods, zip them out to Z-zone areas where you're pretty much immune to the 'Star unless you shot the Mayor, cool down the heat yourself by using your teams' electronics and car B/R skills, and then sell them however you can. smile.gif

The criminal syndicates doing exactly that will be absolutely pleased about the new competitors...

So you give them a cut. Or make a character who's got a couple of decent contacts in said criminal organisation, and the Connected egde, and can help smooth things over. Or do a couple of favors for some mob boss in exchange for being able to do a little carjacking work on the side when you feel like it.

Or you can just accept the fact that shadowrunners are supposed to be good at what they do and it's a losing proposition for organised crime to try to go after highly competent, heavily cybered groups of killing machines with a solid helping of magicians thrown in for good measure. These people make their living preying on the civilians, not fighting battles with heavily armed career criminals.

For that matter, every group I played in so far has been so absurdly overqualified for something as simple as car theft, they could basically do it without leaving a trace, if they chose to make a living that way - so there would hardly be any need for conflict.
Calvin Hobbes
You can't "leave no trace" selling a car: *someone* bought it or the parts of it. Also, very few cybered out killing machines can withstand their drinks being poisoned or their rooms being gassed as they sleep. Nor can they easily handle their contacts being killed.
mmu1
QUOTE (Calvin Hobbes)
You can't "leave no trace" selling a car: *someone* bought it or the parts of it. Also, very few cybered out killing machines can withstand their drinks being poisoned or their rooms being gassed as they sleep. Nor can they easily handle their contacts being killed.

It's a wonder any shadworunners survive, then. I'm amazed the corps haven't figured out yet that if they get hit by runners, all they have to do is contact the local car thief gangs, who will then snap their fingers and bring in the perps on a silver platter.

If only Lone Star and Knight Errant were that good...
Lazarus
I agree with ShadowDragon to an extent. You are right in saying that Corps are interested in the bottomline but is it a universal fact of reality? Sadly for runners, no. Here are some possible hiccups:

1. The runners could be the only like to finding that 25 billion nuyen proto-type. If you find the runners chances are you will be closer, hopefully, to you robjective.

2. Something that is impersonal could be become personal pretty quick. Killing, loss of money and status have a way of doing just that. I mean some high-up suit could have lost out on this run. Maybe he's pissed because this was supposed to be his key to the upstairs boardroom. Maybe he can't take down the Corp but he can take down some runners. Or maybe one those Red Samurai we killed had a loving wife/husband/partner. Maybe he/she just happens to be a badass combat mage with good friends who don't care to help he/she kill you.

I mean would these examples happen everytime, even half the time? Of course not. But all it takes is that one time.

With the Street Doc example our team used him not so much for the money but as getting rid of evidence. The money was a nice bonus. Going on the principle that even if you kill a person in a Z Zone someone is eventually going to find it. It may be a thousand years, but someone will find it. With a Street Doc who knows what he is doing you can get rid of a huge piece of evidence to murder: the body. Hopefully you have a good Doc who ships organs and ware all over the world to lessen the trace back to him, hence back to you. Hey he shouldn't be stupid. He doesn't want to get caught just so he can be a GM plot tool and dime you out.

Basically I believe the criminal environment functions like an eco-system. A system that is balanced will function. However when you introduce a new element into that system it has to change. Change can be good or bad. You start a car stealing ring change occurs. Not everyone likes it especially those who are on the bad end of it. They may want to change it back. Like that Seoulpa Ring whose car stealing market you just muscled into. Sure maybe they can't take you on, but they know a decker ring that can make your life hell.

"Just because I think everyone is out to get me doesn't mean they aren't."

Sometimes just being paraniod isn't enough. indifferent.gif

Calvin Hobbes
Corps tend to have image problems: you run around shooting people, you're going to get noticed and eventually, it's going to look bad. Your extraterritorial rights only matter on your turf. Government turf is punishible by the Corp. Court or even the UCAS.

And it's not an issue of them doing it constantly. It's the issue of them doing it *once*. Because after people learn that dealing with you left a couple of people beat up, the rates are going to get higher, assuming you're even still in the carjacking business after a lone star squad, corp goons or mob stooges make a serious play for you.
Mr Cjelli
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
Cost:
14 dead Red Sammies and all their gear:
:: -80,000 nuyen training each.

I think you missed a zero on the training costs.
Calvin Hobbes
In Shadowrun, any plan to make money should only ever work once. The point of being a runner as opposed to any other group is that regular income is impossible for you. Do something, and someone else will learn from/about what you did. Steal a few cars, and then drop it like its hot the moment the mob starts looking for you, because even if you're this elite crime figure who's connected, has a crime ring goon squad connected to you, and does favors for the local mob boss, you're going to get pegged by someone else: an underling looking to take over your action, or another crime syndicate looking to move into the turf. Likewise, organlegging will work great until your team starts getting a reputation as ghouls, or some cybered-out gang decides to take issue with you, etc. Plus, why do they settle for a cut? They've already got that business you're horning in on. By the time your "cut" is satisfactory, it could be that you're working simply for the priviledge of selling cars in this neighborhood without head ventilation.

Any trick to make money in Shadowrun should be a short-lived experience at best. One of the running themes of cyberpunk is no one has all the angles covered, and if you keep doing the same thing in the shadows, that routine should get your hoop jumped. Otherwise, it'd just be better to get a real job.

I also really hate peoples' notion that having a powerful contact solves these problems. In some other thread, some guy went on about how having a level 3 contact in Lone Star's cyber division meant you couldn't get jumped, likewise here with your analogy of having all these people who work with you. Overall, it's not a losing proposition to the mob to hire someone who costs 1 nuyen less than your job's worth if you're taking the business away from them. Say you're giving them half what you're making. If they kill you for less than that half, they just made some good money taking over your operation.

Yeah, nothing should ever work out twice.
mmu1
Nonsense... The point of being a runner is completely subjective, and varies depending on the runner.

Some people do it because they can't do anything else, some because they can, but running pays better and there are no taxes, some because it gives them freedom from society's or corps' rules, some because they're sociopaths and enjoy hurting people, some for the thrills, some because that's the easiest way to get metahuman flesh to eat... Whatever. Being a runner certainly doesn't automatically mean you can't hold a steady job, though. Hell, "Day Job" is actually one of the canonical flaws.

It's the job of the GM to see to it that the runs you offer the players are interesting enough, and that the PCs get paid enough, to ensure your group isn't going to waste its time carjacking instead... And pulling out the big stick of GM fiat every time the players find some sort of devious easy-money scheme that makes life hard for you is shitty GMing.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
Any place surrounded by monowire becomes target #1. Who cares what's inside, just steal all their monowire, that stuff is expensive.

Corps are usually not entirely stupid, especially those with access to monowire and budgets to string it. By a happy coincidence, many effective anti-theft measures also help prevent access (examples: turrets covering the monowired walls, antipersonnel charges on the walls).

~J
Kyoto Kid
Violet runs a tech fixit shop on the side (Day Job). Takes care of her basic lifestyle costs so she can concentrate on more important things.
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (mmu1)
but running pays better

It should.

It seems most of the teams that are giving their GM's headaches aren't making squat in the Shadowrunning department. If you're not willing to pay the PC's enough to do at least some of what they want, then you should be ready for them to start setting up chop-shops and orichalcum factories.

@Shadowdragon:

Vengeance is worth a lot when it sends a strong message to the next group that was planning on going up against you, and if you catch the runners, you're on the first step to finding out who was really out to get you.
FrankTrollman
No. Vengeance only sends the message that you are playing the stupid game where you get emotionally involved and lose track of the bottom line. As soon as that message goes out, other corporations are going to eat you alive, sending goons to key your car, throw trash over your fence, and shoot your employees.

You've already established that you're willing to harm yourself financially in order to avenge personal insults, other corps are going to have no problem setting you up with plenty of personal insults in an attempt to ruin you financially. It's like a price war, but they don't even have to cut prices.

If you can't stop a shadowrunner team, and you can't undo whatever damage they've done, it's time to cut your losses. Otherwise the other big boys are going to perceive you as weak.

-Frank
Calvin Hobbes
Day Job is a flaw because of the risk that having a routine causes. Same with the calling card flaw, or countless others. Otherwise, how is a day job a flaw? Unless you're trapped in it somehow, you can quit your job. The Day Job flaw exists because it's a liability against your normal safety. If you're sinless, your day job is not paying as well as a corporate extraction once a month... Plus, it's funny when the Knight Errant team shoots it out with you in the Bakery you inherited. (Ask me how!)

As to the notion of vengeance is not good on the books, it's not "The Corporation" that makes the decision to kill you. Nor is it "The Yakuza" or "The Humanis Policlub." It's a guy or girl within that group. Most of the time, yeah, it's hard to write up a justification on the budget sheet for vengeance. Sometimes, he or she'll have you whacked because you slotted them off. He gets to work, finds out some punk runners killed two of his friends on the security team, he might decide that it's worth skrimping a bit of the budget to kill those people who did it. Or maybe the mid-level manager decides to kill you because they're going to fire her for losing the paydata you took, and is making one last stab at you before they remove her, hell's heart kind of thing. Frosty has another good point: vengeance also sends a message. Mitsuhama kills every runner they can, and runners demand more to run against them. Sometimes, Vengeance Killy-Death is a good deterrent against future runs.

Overall, I think that runners in the sinless world should have no guarantees, and for players to expect their plans to go perfect is a mark of overconfidence.
FrostyNSO
14 Red Samurai are killed by shadowrunners...Renraku does nothing.

What kind of message does that send to others who may be planning to harm your company?

What kind of message does that send to the rest of your security staff?

What kind of message does that send to your employees (some of which may already be looking for greener pastures)?

What kind of message does that send to your stockholders?

There's a lot more involved in vengeance than emotion.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Calvin Hobbes)
Day Job is a flaw because of the risk that having a routine causes. Same with the calling card flaw, or countless others. Otherwise, how is a day job a flaw? Unless you're trapped in it somehow, you can quit your job. The Day Job flaw exists because it's a liability against your normal safety. If you're sinless, your day job is not paying as well as a corporate extraction once a month... Plus, it's funny when the Knight Errant team shoots it out with you in the Bakery you inherited. (Ask me how!)

Yeah, it gets in Violet's way - especially with her lifestyle flaw of Annoying Neighbours ("hey my Nukit Toaster broke, can you fix it?"). Yes it is a liability, since she must keep up her appearance as the neighbourhood "repair girl" for a portion of the week (1 pt flaw: 10 hrs). It also requires her to keep up an alternate SIN as well.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
14 Red Samurai are killed by shadowrunners...Renraku does nothing.

What kind of message does that send to others who may be planning to harm your company?

What kind of message does that send to the rest of your security staff?

What kind of message does that send to your employees (some of which may already be looking for greener pastures)?

No message, if you controlled the information well enough.
QUOTE
What kind of message does that send to your stockholders?

Applies only to public companies.

~J
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
14 Red Samurai are killed by shadowrunners...Renraku does nothing.

There's a lot more involved in vengeance than emotion.

QUOTE
What kind of message does that send to others who may be planning to harm your company?


We're not going to waste the resources that might otherwise be in your way tracking down the guys who have been and gone.

QUOTE
What kind of message does that send to the rest of your security staff?


These guys have already proven to us that they can kill you. Thus, we're not going to put your lives at risk by sending you at them/

QUOTE
What kind of message does that send to your employees (some of which may already be looking for greener pastures)?


Renraku Corp. does not waste it's resources on petty vengeance. Instead, these resources go into your salary.

QUOTE
What kind of message does that send to your stockholders?


Renraku Corp. is not stupid and emotional enough that we will throw good money after bad.
Lazarus
I don't think it's always as cut and dry as in Instance A Corp AA will always do B but in Instance BB it will always do C. First you have to distinguish the difference but a Corp and a Corporate Suit.

A Corporation is an organzation made of people who collectively are interested in securing profits for its shareholders. A Corporation is run by policy, most of the time. If killing a bunch of runners will help the bottom line it will do it. If not then it won't.

However Corporations are made up of individuals who by their very nature are human, well somewhat human. They have needs, fears, desires, the whole package. Sure you may piss one off and he says "F**k it! I got screwed but there is nothing I can do." Then another person may say "F**k it, and F**k them for F**king me!" It depends on the person and what their motivations are. Remember that revenge is a very human emotion.

It's the same as to what works and to what doesn't as far as money is concenred in SR.

Making money illegally is just like anything else except for the legal part. Sure a car ring may work once, for awhile, or for a long time. It all depends, but I think the main point is once you start jacking cars to make a living you are no longer a Shadowrunner. You're a car thief who shadowruns on the side. If you have deck factory you're a factory owner. Now this isn't saying you can't run a game like that, but once that profession is the builk of what you do then that would probably by your main, or defining profession. I mean sure you can still shadowrun if you want to but if you make more money boosting cars and it takes less time and effort then you aren't running for the money anymore. Your character may have other reasons which may or may not be vaild but monetary gain isn't one of them. That would be like Donald Trump getting a part time job at Circuit City because "Hey it never hurts to have extra cash."
FrostyNSO
Well if the corporation isn't going to try and go after the runners, I guess all the extra SIN's and multiple safehouses you all get for your characters aren't all that important then are they? While we're at it, let's not worry about leaving evidence, we can leave all we want and the corp won't come after us!

Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Lazarus explained why. The company is made up of many individuals working as a whole, and those individuals have emotions, desires, etc, etc... If you're Renraku's regional security chief, it's going to look really bad if a Renraku facility gets compromised, 14 Red Samurai get killed, and 26 billion in research is out on the market somewhere, and you can't even tell your boss that the group who did it won't be able to do it again.
Oracle
Of course there are situations where the corp will come after a runner. For example if they try to get something back you have stolen. Or if they need information about your Johnson. Or...
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
Well if the corporation isn't going to try and go after the runners, I guess all the extra SIN's and multiple safehouses you all get for your characters aren't all that important then are they? While we're at it, let's not worry about leaving evidence, we can leave all we want and the corp won't come after us!

Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Lazarus explained why. The company is made up of many individuals working as a whole, and those individuals have emotions, desires, etc, etc... If you're Renraku's regional security chief, it's going to look really bad if a Renraku facility gets compromised, 14 Red Samurai get killed, and 26 billion in research is out on the market somewhere, and you can't even tell your boss that the group who did it won't be able to do it again.

You forgot things for whom money isen't the driving factor. Policlubs, the mafia, etcetera. They WILL come after the Runners. And since putting criminals behind bars/in the ground DOES make money for the 'Star and KE, they WILL come after you.
nick012000
Eh. I'd say that corps would come after you, if doing so is cost effective. If you're a corp citizen, you don't wear a mask, and you leave fingerprints all over everything, and try to go back to work the next day, you'll be visited by the nice men in the suits coming to arrest you. If you wear a helmet and gloves, have the mage use a Sterilize spell, don't leave behind ballistic evidence (i.e. use caseless EX-EX rounds), and go to hide in your safehouse in the Barrens, the corp won't come after you.

Basically, if the corp knows who you are, and where you are, they'll come after you unless you're hiding in a safehouse in the Barrens. If you are in the Barrens, they'll get the Star to watch all of your legal lifestyles. And if you go back to one, the Star will get you.
Ed Simons
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
Vengeance is worth a lot when it sends a strong message to the next group that was planning on going up against you, and if you catch the runners, you're on the first step to finding out who was really out to get you.


No, the first step to finding out who sent Shadowrunners against you is taking a good look at what the Shadowrunners did. If they stole a prototype, which other corporations would have a use for that prototype? Similar deductions can be made for acts of sabotage, assassination, kidnapping, etc.

The runners probably aren't a good source of information. First you have to find them. Then you have to get them to give over their fixer's name. Then you have to find their fixer. Then you have to get him to give over Mr. Johnson's name. Then you have to find Mr. Johnson. Then you have to get him to reveal which corporation he really works for.

As to vengeance against the runners sending a message, it doesn't send a message to the other corps, who are the ones actually hiring the runners. They'll still try to steal prototypes, kidnap research scientists, etc, no matter how many runners you kill.

It probably doesn't even send a message to most runners, as they will assume that they are smarter and tougher than the group you just snuffed.

Another problem is that for vengeance to send a message, the shadow community will need to know which corp inflicted the vengeance. That ties your corp directly to any crimes committed during your act of vengeance and the police corporation, the media, and rival corporations could profit from that.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Ed Simons)
The runners probably aren't a good source of information. First you have to find them. Then you have to get them to give over their fixer's name. Then you have to find their fixer. Then you have to get him to give over Mr. Johnson's name. Then you have to find Mr. Johnson. Then you have to get him to reveal which corporation he really works for.

And that's assuming that the J is as far up the chain as it goes. There could be a whole string of Fixers and Superfixers, Johnsons and Oberjohnsons.

~J
Lazarus
QUOTE (nick012000 @ Dec 23 2005, 08:51 AM)
If you wear a helmet and gloves, have the mage use a Sterilize spell, don't leave behind ballistic evidence (i.e. use caseless EX-EX rounds), and go to hide in your safehouse in the Barrens, the corp won't come after you.

I once played with a GM who had a rule that no matter what we did on a run or how well did we always got at least 1 Public. (Private and Public were reputation ratings from SR 2. Private was good Public was bad.) Sometimes we got a lot more if we really screwed up. We asked why one time and his logic was that no matter how good you are you always miss something. Even if you do everything up above then that becomes your M.O.. Cops start asking questions about a group of runners who operate this way and one day they will eventually come up with your name. Of course they may not have any evidence to prosecute you with, but they will start to look at you more closely. Time to change faces again. eek.gif

Basically his point was that no one can run the shadows forever. If you keep playing the game eventually you will get killed or get caught. But for me that is part of the SR/Cyberpunk Setting. Knowing that your character has almost no chance at a normal life or survival. But hey you still have to try right. cool.gif
Ed Simons
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
If you're Renraku's regional security chief, it's going to look really bad if a Renraku facility gets compromised, 14 Red Samurai get killed, and 26 billion in research is out on the market somewhere, and you can't even tell your boss that the group who did it won't be able to do it again.


This would only matter to your boss if that was the only shadowrunning team in the entire city. He wants to hear how security is being upgraded so no shadowrunning team can do it again.

Of course, he doesn't want security costs to increase, either, which leaves somewhat of a catch-22.
FrostyNSO
Meh.

I guess we'll have to agree to all disagree with me! wink.gif For me, part of the setting was that all these Megacorporations were (supposedly) governed strictly by the bottom line, but there were always those within that had no problems manipulating policy or allocations when it suited them to do so.
Dog
To respond to the original question:

My current character has been trying to scrape up some extra cash other than what he's being paid for as a legbreaker.

He's pocketed some overlooked merchandise after a raid he helped with. He's got a notion of who the legitimate owner is, and he's currently trying to decide if he should ransom it, or just fence it.

Also, he managed to make a punk out of a small time gang leader. (A teammate killed the gang leader after, but that's another story.) He's considering muscling into gang leadership and getting a take. Hasn't decided if it's worth the work and the risks.

I can tell you what he hasn't done, too. After "finding" a stash of pharmaceuticals, he decided it would be beneath him to hawk it on the street. He's also declined to kill somebody as a gesture of intimidation.
Calvin Hobbes
But what message does that send to deniable assets? Renraku: If you kick the crap out of us, we'll take it lying down.
FrankTrollman
Who cares what message you send to deniable assets? They are assets, and they work for whoever happens to be paying that week. Going after the assets is a waste of your time. If you spent resources killing them, the original corporation who had hired them would essentially get additional free work - and that's totally unacceptable.

Much better to spend a similar amount of nuyen.gif hiring those obviously accomplished deniable assets to go after the original guy. That will send a message of "don't screw with me" to the people who hire deniable assets, and then you might actually have less of them sent against you.

-Frank
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