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Findar
Anybody seen a value in SR3 or SR4?
FrankTrollman
In SR3, the value of alchemically useful Gold was 1 nuyen.gif a gram (see p. 40 and 170, MitS), which indicates that the value of "normal" gold was even less. Presumably, someone found a huge supply of gold soemwhere between now and 2063, causing the value to fall down to that of milk, cheese, or any other commodity.

Yeppers, that's 10,000 nuyen.gif for 10 kg of alchemical gold.

-Frank
BishopMcQ
QUOTE
Yeppers, that's 10,000  for 10 kg of alchemical gold.

Unless Alchemical Gold is actually not pure enough to be measured by the standards as mundane gold.

I would say that that in it's radical form Gold probably meets the same standards, because the raw form is completely unprocessed and thus will have huge amounts of impurities.

Radical form weighs 100g and costs 40,000¥. Thus the 10kg example above would cost 4,000,000¥.
SL James
One of the books mentioned that newly-awakened dragons and spirits with Wealth dropped enough precious metals and other valuables (e.g., diamonds) to significantly depress the market value.
stevebugge
From the NYMEX

http://www.nymex.com/GC_spec.aspx

Gold Futures

Trading Unit

100 troy ounces.

Price Quotation

U.S. dollars and cents per troy ounce.

[snip]

Ok I won't paste the whole thing here, since this is not a board on trading commodity futures.

Short version 1 Gram = .03 Troy Ounces

Todays Closing for gold was $517.10 per Troy Ounce or $17236.66
the Nuyen is around $5 so Gold should be about 3447.33 Nuyen per Gram.

So the SR value of Gold doesn't appear to have much bearing on reality.

However if you go back to the NYMEX page:

Gold futures contracts are also valuable trading tools for commercial producers and users of the metal. Commercial concentrations of gold are found in widely distributed areas: in association with ores of copper and lead, in quartz veins, in the gravel of stream beds, and with pyrites (iron sulfide). Seawater contains astonishing quantities of gold, but its recovery is not economical.

So perhaps recovering gold from seawater became economical at some point.
stevebugge
QUOTE (SL James)
One of the books mentioned that newly-awakened dragons and spirits with Wealth dropped enough precious metals and other valuables (e.g., diamonds) to significantly depress the market value.

Yeah I remember that but for gold to drop to 1/3400th of it's present value is more like the bottom falling out of the market than a significant depression.
SL James
Hey, no one ever said anything in SR had to make sense; especially not economics.
emo samurai
So... how much gold and other stuff do you have to have to make 1 gram of orihalcum? Do you need to expend Karma?
Darkness
As per Magic in the Shadows, you need one unit (100g) of the radicals of each of silver, copper, gold and mercury (thats 400g in total) to refine 10g of orichalcum(the exact amount varies, depending on the outcome of your Enchanting test). The process takes 28 days to complete.
No Karma required.
the_dunner
QUOTE (stevebugge)
Short version 1 Gram = .03 Troy Ounces

Todays Closing for gold was $517.10 per Troy Ounce or $17236.66
the Nuyen is around $5 so Gold should be about 3447.33 Nuyen per Gram.

Methinks you have done your math backwards.

If one Troy Ounce is $517.10, then the price of a single gram is $517.10 *(0.0325) = $16.81 per gram. Assuming you're still going with the $5 per 1:nuyen:, the price of gold has been cut, roughly, by a factor of 3, not 3400.

Considering some of hte science involved, and allowing for inflation at different rates between the tech sector and the precious metals sector, I don't think that's fantastically unreasonable.

Here's the stoichiometry:
$517.10/1 TO * 0.0325TO/1g, T.O. cancels out, and you get $/g

Moon-Hawk
I agree with The Dunner, because he used the word 'stoichiometry'.
Darkness
And i forgot, to make those radicals you need refined materials of the four metals, which each weight 5 Kilos, which must be made out of raw materials (10 Kilo the unit for metals) in a 28 day alchemical process.

So effectively, you need 10 Kilos of every Metal involved to produce 10g of Orichalkum.

QUOTE (McQuillan)
Unless Alchemical Gold is actually not pure enough to be measured by the standards as mundane gold.

It is mundane gold, it has to be made into refined gold to be magically usefull.
stevebugge
I agree with the Dunner too actually because when I redid the math I came up with the exact same numbers. Not sure what I did the first time.

So the correct math:
1 gram is about $16.81 or 3.36 NuYen

Still talking around a 70% decline in the price

However if you consider gold was down around $300 as recently as 2002 then:

1 Gram is about $9.00 or 1.8 NuYen

And was trading around $260 in 1999-2000

1g at $7.80 or 1.56 NuYen
Mr.Platinum
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
I agree with The Dunner, because he used the word 'stoichiometry'.

um whats that Stoich word mean?
Darkness
Just ask the Wiki wink.gif
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoichiometry
Ancient History
Lofwyr dropped a nice chunk of gold on the market when he bought S-K.
emo samurai
I thought dragons valued their treasure hordes as much as their most wonderful memories, because to them, their treasures WERE their most wonderful memories.
emo samurai
Plus, I heard that the cost of gold is artificially high; the supply is controlled very tightly because the amount of gold is used up at a much lower rate than what it's mined at. Once the institutions that control the supply of gold collapse, the market would then be flooded.
Butterblume
I will tell you the secret truth: in 2070, gold will be worth its weight in gold, if not more biggrin.gif
stevebugge
QUOTE (emo samurai)
Plus, I heard that the cost of gold is artificially low; the supply is controlled very tightly because the amount of gold is used up at a much lower rate than what it's mined at. Once the institutions that control the supply of gold collapse, the market would then be flooded.

Do you mean artificially high?

The futures markets take in to account total supply, both available and still extractable (and the relative difficulty of extraction) the price on the NYMEX is reflective of what gold is worth at that moment. With Gold the supply is pretty much fixed it's demand that causes most of the price fluctuation unlike say Cattle Futures, Orange Juice Futures, or Wheat in which the supply can vary wildly from year to year while demand remains more or less constant.
emo samurai
QUOTE
Do you mean artificially high?


I'm such a stickler for intelligent use of language that I kick myself with a steel-toed boot whenever I make a mistake like that.

And as a side note, I don't really do that.
FrostyNSO
One way or another, I'll bet the value skyrocketed when crash 2.0 hit.
MaxMahem
I wouldn't worry about its specific value (value per unit mass) to much unless there was specific reason to worry about the weight of gold that they had. If a player told me they wanted to convert so much of their wealth into gold I would make them find an appropriate broker, subtract 10%~15% of the amount as a brokrage fee, and have them mark it on there sheet. And then make evil plans to have their abode broken into. If it was during character creation I would shrug and say sure whatever, and ignore it.

If it the weight did come up during play (say they were stealing it from a vault or something, and need to know how much it weighed while trying to cart it away). I would just grab some numbers out of the sky, like say 10,000Y a pound, this is considerably higher than it's value today ~$8k a pound, but probably still short of what we reasonably might expect. It's price tends to rise with uncertiany, and so 2070 it's price is probably coming down after reaching a new all-time high after Crash 2.0. I would try and avoid letting players getting to much of it anyways. Gold is to valuable a resource to let players get there hands on in any kind of bulk. I suppose in 2070 it's all isotopicaly marked so it would be pretty hard to fence.

As for using it for fetishes and items and the like. I would just use the foci prices as a guidline and just wing-it. Gold might acount for say 25% of the cost of the foci. This would end up being a realitivly small (and to me uninteresting) amount. This should suffice until if/when Fan-pro publishes some more detailed foci rules, maybe in Street Magic.

-----

Hmm... thinking about it some more. I like my players to average about 10~20k per run, before expenses. Say a team of 5 players stole 50lbs of gold, a bulky enough quantity to be interesting (I forsee a footchase with such gold biggrin.gif). That would be 500kY by my metric. Say they can fence it for 50% of it's value (reasonable enough), that would still be 50kY each, to much for my taste. Maybe they had to give half of there take up for the info to do the run? That would bring it down to just 25kY each, but there would be to much temptation to just take the money and run... I think it can work, but I'm fresh out of ideas. Any help?

Jaid
half of the gold is fake. the equipment needed to figure out if it's fake or not is very bulky.

as such, when they grab it, it's half fake, half real... and they don't know which half is which. when the people who own the gold need real stuff, they just run it through the test (have it take maybe a minute or two... really frustrating for a shadowrun, but if you plan ahead and are getting the gold legitimately, it is likely that 2 minutes is not that big of a deal... )
FrankTrollman
Real gold has a specific gravity of 19.8 g/mL. The equipment needed to test the veracity of gold is a cup of water and a bathroom scale. This is neither bulky nor complicated.

Other things that are dense enough to be mistaken for gold have a tendency to be more expensive than gold. If someone wanted to make a Pyrite cover for an Osmium Ingot that's great. Fool's gold only fools fools.

-Frank
Jaid
hrmmm... i see...

well, in that case, maybe the runners just don't know beforehand that half the gold is fake, and therefore don't bring the equipment needed to test if it's real then nyahnyah.gif

certainly, i can't say that i personally have ever considered bringing a bathroom scale and a tub of water with me on a run wink.gif

(although with some runners, you never know biggrin.gif)
MaxMahem
The runners bust there buts only to discover half the gold is fake, man, that is cruel... I love it! The gold could be replaced with painted Tungsten bars, which have a very simlar density, but are worth signifigantly less (>>$100/lb). This allows me to the potential to have the runners steal a large amount of gold, but only get a slight pay-off from it.

I've got the premise for the run. The runners have been hired (offered realy) an opportunity to steal some gold from the Pueblo Coporate Council. This gold was taken from California Free State during the invasion. The Johnson poses to be a represenative of some group opposing the PCC, like Ute anti-unionist or some other freedom fighter/terrorist, claiming to want the gold back. But he is actualy working for the PCC in question. He has been secreatly stealing and replacing the Gold with Tungsten duplicates for years. However, he is worried that his theft will be detected after it is moved to a new location, and is trying to get the runners to steal it to cover up his theft.

The gold is be transported from California to Seattle via the tube. This means it must pas through the Tir which is where it is vunerable to theft. Tir will not let the train's military escort cross there borders, leaving it realitivly undefended. The runners must infiltrate the Tir, and find a way to stop the train in it's underground tunnel. The large network or service tunnels will facilitate this. They then have to escape with it and get back across the Tir border.

I love this concept, because in the end the runners are the one who get stuck with the bag. Most of the gold they stole is fake, but the PCC doesn't know that, and they want there gold back. The Johnson is protected by the runners act of theft, the PCC will assume the runners stole/replaced the gold and will be after there heads, not his. Getting revenge on the Johnson and getting the PCC off their backs can be another run entirely.
FrostyNSO
Not bad at all, and good premise/motivation for the johnson. cool.gif

Our group actually stole about nuyen.gif 2,000,000 in Egyptian gold on a run in the middle east once. What we didn't know was that said gold wasn't Eqyptian at all, but part of a stash belonging to Aden.

After all was said and done, the group was patched up, split up, and there was nuyen.gif 800,000 in gold bullion hidden in the Libyan desert for whoever the last surviving group member happens to be.
FrankTrollman
As previously noted, 2000,000 nuyen.gif worth of gold is well over 2 tonnes. That's stealable, but not easily.

-Frank
MaxMahem
I'm still fleshing out the run, but right now I think I am going to divide the "gold" into standard 500 troy ounce bars, that's about ~27 pounds worth about 250,000Y each. Of course in my run, the characters are likely only going to come away with two or three bars that are actualy real. The shipment itself will consisting of about 40 bars, worth a nominal 10,000,000Y. That's about half a ton of gold. Which should be pretty tricky to haul off. More than likely the characters will only be able to get away with say half of it. Which doesn't really matter because nearly all of it is fake. In fact, only the few bars the characters will find lose have not actualy been replaced with fakes. For my team of 5 runners this should be a tricky hall. It's 200 lbs each, for them to carry, and we only have two characters with above average strength. We should finish up our current run next week, (I'm running a 2070 adaptation of Ivy and Crome right now) and I think I'm going to go with this one. Look for a semi-full write some time next week.
Cang
is gold used in many electronics? that would make gold atleast an improtant and often used metal in shadowrun. when everything from cyberware, to guns with memory, to toothpaste that tells you that you are a good person. lick.gif
FrankTrollman
I'm confused. Why jack up the price of gold to beyond what it normally is in Shadowrun and then screw the players over with fake gold? Why not just give them the amount of gold you want them to get away with at the end?

Faking gold bars is nearly impossible. Especially if characters have laser range finders and cybernetic limbs. They'll just know the size and mass of the bars, which means that they won't get fooled by immitations just by lifting it. 200 pounds of alchemical gold is less than 91,000 nuyen.gif - it's less than half a million for the entire team if they have to haul it away by hand.

If you want fake goods, make fake electronics. A Transys Avalon fits in a pocket and weighs about 42 grams. It retails for five thousand nuyen! A hundred thousand empty Avalon cases could fit on a single pallet - and be half a billion nuyen worth of fakery.

Fake gold is retarded. This is the 21st centuury, and people don't bother with that kind of crap any more. Fake electronics is big money.

-Frank
Moon-Hawk
I agree that fake gold would be fairly easy to detect, but IMO you're making it too easy. Sure, laser rangefinders & such could figure it out if you were checking, but why check? The people who have the gold aren't checking. They checked it when it came in and they have no reason to believe that Mr. Inside Job has smuggled some of it out. I'm sure they'll check periodically, but he knows that. Hence the runners. The runners have no reason to suspect that the gold repository's gold is fake. They're going to grab it and run. Will they check later? Absolutely. Will it matter by then? Nope. It's already been stolen, so the Johnson is off the hook.
The counterfeit wouldn't hold up for long, that's certain, but it could work as a run, I think.
Of course, there's the question of how the Johnson switched the gold in the first place, but the details of that aren't important to the story. Suffice to say he did it somehow and now needs to foil the evidence before it gets checked.
Hmmmm, but why wouldn't the gold get checked when it was being loaded onto the train? Perhaps THAT is when the Johnson performed the old switcheroo!
hyzmarca
Don't make it fake gold, make it artificial gold produced by a Free Spirit or in a Megacorp nanotech lab. You can determine which mine gold came from by the impurities in it. This is how law enforcement proves where gold came from in real life. The equipment for testing this is bulky. Artifical gold would be 100% pure and thus obviously man or spirit made. Anyone who tests it would know that it was created and give a much lower price if not refuse to buy it alltogether.

Of course, you could have the gold be real and just come back to haunt them which the trace impurities proving that their gold was the stolen gold and the Feds getting them.

But my serious recomendation is to have them attack Fort Knox only to find a spacecraft identical to the one in Dunkie's Mars photos. You see, the US gold reserve is really kept in Area 51 and the aliens are kept in Fort Knox, to throw everyone off.
Moon-Hawk
Good idea Hyzmarca.
Although I really don't want to try to explain to someone why their super-pure gold is actually worth less than regular gold if they don't already understand the concept.
For some reason I like the fake gold better. And if they figure it out mid-steal, then the Johnson produces some "evidence" that they runners were able to successfully steal and replace the gold, and they're still in trouble, and now they don't have gold! HA!
Wait, is that TOO mean?
rotfl.gif hehe, "too mean". Ridiculous.
stevebugge
QUOTE (hyzmarca)

But my serious recomendation is to have them attack Fort Knox only to find a spacecraft identical to the one in Dunkie's Mars photos. You see, the US gold reserve is really kept in Area 51 and the aliens are kept in Fort Knox, to throw everyone off.

I like the idea of the Gold Reserve moving too, though probably not to Area 51 (Groom Lake Nevada) as Fort Knox is in Kentucky and dangerously close to the CAS, (the again so is the Capital, but politicians are easily replaceable). This could lead the runners all over the country on a hunt for the Federal Gold Reserve.
Critias
I think you mean "The CAS is dangerously close to Fort Knox." Because Fort Knox would win in that fight. wink.gif
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
But my serious recomendation is to have them attack Fort Knox only to find a spacecraft identical to the one in Dunkie's Mars photos. You see, the US gold reserve is really kept in Area 51 and the aliens are kept in Fort Knox, to throw everyone off.

That'd definitely throw people off, considering that by SR time, Area 51 is in NAN territory.
FrankTrollman
Why bother with substituting the gold with anything? If the goal is to have Shadowrunners "steal it" and cover your losses, don't leave anything behind at all. If the shadowrunners leave any kind of synthetic gold bricks behind in their wake, it will leave a trail that might eventually lead to the Johnson.

Don't play that game. When the gold gets loaded onto the train, have about 1.5 tonnes of it loaded into the back of the Johnson's Nightsky. Then, when it comes time for the runners to steal from the train, the corp will just add 1,500 kg to whatever actual amount the runners get away with.

Gold that "isn't real" is a D&D plot. That kind of crap can fool bumkins and knights and crap, but Shadowrun has Magic and Machine, and no Hacker is ever going to be fooled by fake gold. Empty boxes, on the other hand, don't have to fool anyone. That's what makes them great.

-Frank
Moon-Hawk
Going back to FrankTrollman's idea of using fake electronics, I just got a great image of the runners breaking onto the train starting to load crates of electronics. The mage has a spare moment, so he decides to 'analyze device' on one of the phoney gadgets and learns, "This is a fake bit of electronics designed specifically to f*** you over."
Mage:.....Oh hell. Um, guys?
hyzmarca
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 3 2006, 02:08 PM)
But my serious recomendation is to have them attack Fort Knox only to find a spacecraft identical to the one in Dunkie's Mars photos. You see, the US gold reserve is really kept in Area 51 and the aliens are kept in Fort Knox, to throw everyone off.

That'd definitely throw people off, considering that by SR time, Area 51 is in NAN territory.

Well, all the gold is in Area 51 now in real life, the fact that the Gold Reserve will be losst to the NAN in the future simply helps accelerate the UCAS' economic decline, althogh the government doesn't let anyone know this for fear that public knowledge of the situation will make the value of the UCAS dollar plummet even further.
MaxMahem
QUOTE (Frank Trollman)
I'm confused. Why jack up the price of gold to beyond what it normally is in Shadowrun and then screw the players over with fake gold? Why not just give them the amount of gold you want them to get away with at the end?

I don't think I've jacked up the price beyond what it normally worth. As I said in my earlier post, gold is worth ~$8,000 a pound today so giving it a value of ~10,000Y a pound in 2070 isn't jacking up the price, if anything it's lower than the value we might expect after 70 of uncertianty, inflation, and gold scarcity.

QUOTE
Faking gold bars is nearly impossible. Especially if characters have laser range finders and cybernetic limbs. They'll just know the size and mass of the bars, which means that they won't get fooled by immitations just by lifting it. 200 pounds of alchemical gold is less than 91,000 nuyen.gif - it's less than half a million for the entire team if they have to haul it away by hand.

As I said earlier, Tungsten bars could provide a semi-realistic duplicate. The density is nearly the same. IMO cyberlimbs and rangefinders don't provide the kind of accuracy that would be necessary to determine the diffrence bettwen them. A cyberlimb is not a scale, and it can't give you more than a rough idea of how much an object weighs, which is not enough to figure out the (small) diffrence in density. I might give them a roll, but it would be tough (Threshold 5) and there would be penalties to their dice. None of my characters have laser rangefinders, and only one has a cyberlimb anyways. I would have to check there sheats, but I don't think any of them have any knowledge skills that would be relevant to the situation either.

Also, I'm not sure where you are getting the 91,000Y figure from. By the metric I am using, 200 pounds of gold is worth 2 MILLION yen. Even split 5 ways and then fenced for half it's value it's still more wealth than I feel comfortable in handing out (200kY).

QUOTE
If you want fake goods, make fake electronics. A Transys Avalon fits in a pocket and weighs about 42 grams. It retails for five thousand nuyen! A hundred thousand empty Avalon cases could fit on a single pallet - and be half a billion nuyen worth of fakery.

Gold is an intresting quantity to have my players steal for several reasons. Mainly because any signifigant quantity of it is very heavy, especialy if they steal alot of it. The problem that goes with that is that 10,000Y a pound is a very high concentration of wealth, and I have to be carefull about letting my players getting a hold of two much of it. So to keep things intresting, I'll have a signifigant portion of the gold the characters steal end up fake, keeping the wealth level of my campaign stead.

I also like the retro appeal of a 2070 train robbery. To steal gold no less. Heck, I'm thinking about having the players have to chase down the train in cars vehicles in the tube to enhance the retro imagry. My players are ALWAYS stealing some bit of cyber or electronics, or whatever. It gets old, and transportation of the valuable but small item is seldom an issue during the run. But this gold heist should be diffrent.

And of course, now I've also fallen in love with the way they get double crossed on this run. It's been a while since I've had a Johnson screw them over, and the setup for it happening this time is better than most IMO. Be chased for the theft of 10 million in fake gold? That is awesome.
stevebugge
Um, wouldn't industrious runners just sell the tungsten? Not as valuable as gold but still worth a good chunk of change I believe.
MaxMahem
Not so much, current price of Tungsten is below $20/lb, so I'd price it at ~20Y/lb for simplicity sake. So the half ton or so they should recover is only worth ~20kY. Not that much split 5 ways, assuming they could sell it for that. In my campaign you can generaly only fence stolen goods for a bout half what they are worth, bringing the total down to about 1kY a runner.

But I don't think they would even be able to sell it. I have no trouble imagining fixers ready to fence stolen gold. But who is going to want to buy a half ton of a stolen base metal? I just don't think they will be able to find a buyer for it. I might let them try if they were intrested, but I doubt it.

Actualy there best bet might be to try and pawn the "fools gold" off on someone else. Of course whoever bought the fakes would be not be to happy.
stevebugge
OK not quite worth it then.
Kremlin KOA
I'd keep the tungsten
500kg of tungsten + heat source = 5x100kg tungsten rods

tungsten rod + v high altitude drone +good guidance computer =mini thor shot

first shot on MR J's home

second shot on Mr J's wife

tird shot is a warning to the sec team

4th shot ison Mr J after you get the evidence for the corp on what happened

and the 5th you keepfor the next time the GM plays mean

any questions?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (DoubleM)
I don't think I've jacked up the price beyond what it normally worth. As I said in my earlier post, gold is worth ~$8,000 a pound today so giving it a value of ~10,000Y a pound in 2070 isn't jacking up the price, if anything it's lower than the value we might expect after 70 of uncertianty, inflation, and gold scarcity.


The Nuyen is worth more than a modern dollar, not less. And there is more gold and more uncertainty in the gold market in 2070 than there is today.

Gold that has been handled carefully enough that it can still be sued in magical rituals calling for gold costs only 1 nuyen a gram. That's a given price in MitS. Gold in bars from who knows where presumably costs less. Maybe a lot less.

So the entire 27 pound gold bar costs somewhere between 1.3 k and 12.3 k, depending upon how alchemically awesome it is. That's retail, btw. Selling such objects on the black market would presumably bring in less, which means that these objects just aren't nearly as valuable as you've been claiming.

-Frank
MaxMahem
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (DoubleM)
I don't think I've jacked up the price beyond what it normally worth. As I said in my earlier post, gold is worth ~$8,000 a pound today so giving it a value of ~10,000Y a pound in 2070 isn't jacking up the price, if anything it's lower than the value we might expect after 70 of uncertianty, inflation, and gold scarcity.


The Nuyen is worth more than a modern dollar, not less. And there is more gold and more uncertainty in the gold market in 2070 than there is today.

Gold that has been handled carefully enough that it can still be sued in magical rituals calling for gold costs only 1 nuyen a gram. That's a given price in MitS. Gold in bars from who knows where presumably costs less. Maybe a lot less.

So the entire 27 pound gold bar costs somewhere between 1.3 k and 12.3 k, depending upon how alchemically awesome it is. That's retail, btw. Selling such objects on the black market would presumably bring in less, which means that these objects just aren't nearly as valuable as you've been claiming.

-Frank

Now I'm confused. First you say that the gold should be worth more due to scarcity, uncertianty, and higher value of the nuyen to the dollar. But then you quote a price that is much lower than it's current value. I understand if that is the given price in MitS, but that is also completely unrealistic IMO. Gold trades for about $500/ounce right now, and that price should go up, not down. Of course I have no idea how much it will realy trade for, so I'm just assuming a value of 10kY/lb because it is nice and simple.

Also, I've already acounted for the loss the characters well get in fencing the gold in my calculations.
nick012000
The price goes down because of increased supply due to Great Dragons dumping their hordes of gold onto the markets, Free Spirits with the Wealth power, and the collapse of the US government (resulting in weaker security in Fort Knox, leading to multiple theft incedents following the Awakening).
Kremlin KOA
double check but the weiight of a unit gets smaller as the levelof refinement increased
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