Been reading these forums for awhile now, but this is my first time posting. So I am curious about your input about this and wanted to know if this works. An adept hacker with improved reflexes and improved ability in hacking skills. He would need some trodes, commlink, and some programs to work. So he would be able to walk around in AR and be as effective in the matrix as any other hacker in hot sim, maybe even a technomancer. Is this right? Am I missing something? It seems a little over powered and almost makes a technomancer useless. Now I know you can do the same with cyberware but this way you get speed and skill.

First off, the existance of Hacking Adepts does not make a Technomancer useless. Technomancers get sprites to play with, and certain sprite powers can not be duplicated by any other means.

Secondly while it's true that an adept with certain powers running in AR can duplicate the speed and effective skill boost of a mundane hacker running hot sim VR, that's a lot of BP spent to get something the mundane hacker is getting essentially for free.

Well, maybe that example isn't the best but I was just curious about the balancing aspects, what would level it out exactly, because an adept can spend 25 bp for adept quality and 3 magic rating then spend his power points for 3 levels of improved ability in cybercombat, hacking and electronic warfare. While a mundane can't even get that skill boost. And 25 bp isn't that expensive for virtually 9 ratings of skills, which would convert to 36 bp or 30 for a skill group. And to boot it would only get cheaper the higher the magic rating up to 5, at which point would be 20 ratings of skill for 45 bp as opposed to 80. I believe the math is right. I am running a game currently, with a group of hardcore min maxers(it's only a matter of time before they find this out), its just that it would be easier for me if there was a reason this didn't work, instead of me saying no I don't like your character, then I hear 10 minutes of rules lawyering. I just don't like the idea of an adept in hot sim using magic to max his matrix abilities.

So in the long run , wich would be better a reguluar hacker or the adept?

the adept would probably be better in the long run. but you may very well be looking at extremely long run kind of situations.

anyways, i believe the (slight) limitation on the adept powers is that they are limited to adding half of their actual skill rating.

so, they need to put the skill at 6 if they want to get the three point benefit, which means no skill groups.

or, they can just get the skill at 4 by group, and take improved ability 2. in which case, they have a whopping 6 in the skill... as compared to the hacker who also has 6. and probably has no problem getting some basic cyber (control rig for drones, maybe a datajack, implanted commlink, and so on).

so, i'm a buddy's place, and he has SR4, and i'm reading through it. i have the following comments to make: AAAAAAAAAAAAAH! AAAAAAAAAAAH! WHAT HAVE THEY DONE TO MY PRECIOUS GAME!?

IA: hacking skills for .25/level? no IA: vehicle skills? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

You're just mad because they took out the catgirls.

As far as the unbalancing aspects of adept hackers, they do get a cheap ability boost. But that's only if you don't heed the last two sentences under the description of the Adept Quality:

It's amazing. Right there in the descriptor for "Be an Adept," they acknowledge they underpriced it (some folks may recall several napalm-filled threads, months and months ago, wherein many of us expressed a concern they would do exactly that).

You've gotta give 'em points for truth in advertising, at least. They're up front about their insane point costs.

One thing that would seperate a VR hacker from an AR adept hacker is the Extended test. Most extended tests are gobs faster for VR than AR, iirc an example is probing a target node for weakness has an interval of 1 hour in VR and 1 day in AR. So while an adept may do it in one roll, and a hacker in 4, the hacker is done in 4 hours, and the adept would be done in 24.

There's also the skill cap. An adept hacker is going to top out at 9 dice. While that's *awesome* it's also an average of 1 hit more than a regular hacker. The guy won't fail regular type tasks, but hard systems will still be hard. And this guy will have dropped 30 or 40 points getting this thing. Adding in the mundane skill groups at 40 points each, plus the requisite 200 on attributes and you've got precious little room to do anything else. This is just another case of the hyperspecialized character - great at one thing, probably dead if he tries anything else.

As to the cost for the "Adept" quality - remember that you have to buy up your magic rating in order for it to mean much more than a few bonus dice. It is NOT cheap to play an adept - it's a minimum 25 point investment to be worth anything at all. You could get 125,000 worth of cyberware and gear for that. You could get two Connection 5/Loyalty 5 contacts for that and still have points left over to buy Wired 1 and a Reaction Enhancer (more than you need for most opponents). Think about it - bad at being an adept is the same cost as pretty awesome in lots of other ways.

This brings up a question that I have had as I have been reading through the rules. The assumption that I am getting from the responses here is that the adept hacker is limited to AR. Why?

Can't an adept hacker with a commlink, simsense rig, and a set of trodes go full hot sim VR and get all of the benefits that a hacker gets?

Maybe I am just missing it in the rules, but I can't find any benefit for a hacker having invasive cyberware for hacking. Even a nonadept should save their essence for something more important. What am I missing?

Actually, you are right, SunJester. There is nothing what stops you, to do just that.

At SunJester:

You're right that Adepts could go VR and still get all the benefits a normal hacker does. No where in the rules does it say an adept or magician for that matter can't use their powers in VR.

Also, no where in the rules or errata does it actually say that Adepts are limited to half their skill in IA. It does say you cannot exceed the base skill rating in extra IA dice and it also says that IA dice don't count as skill enhancement which makes them exempt from the rule in the Skills section.

As far as adepts being better hackers than regular hackers I'd have to disagree. The mundane hacker starts off better. However, where the adept hacker really shines is in being a MacGuyver. Adepts can sling code and build stuff like no ones business whereas mundanes can't. They get especially sick if you get 4 or 5 magic and then spend a point to get 0.75 Bio and 0.5 Cyber. That gets you Skillwires 3 Alpha, Cerebral Booster 2, and some other Bio toy to play with.

hmmm... think i may have been thinking of the german errata or something about the skill cap.

or at least, i seem to recall hearing the german errata included improved ability being a bonus to the skill, and limited to half as much as the skill rating itself.

of course, i could be wrong, i suppose.

It is in the german errata, and i still wait for an english translation on this btw.

But yeah, IA now directly augments the skill, and isn't just a bonus anymore and thus falls under the skill-cap, according to the german errata at least.

Alright I guess my first post got people thinking on AR adepts but after I implied just a skill boost adept, who would also go into VR. So I think to measure it out like this would be best.

Skill boost- an adept can spend 25 bp for adept quality and 3 magic rating then spend his power points for 3 levels of improved ability in cybercombat, hacking, electronic warfare and 3 in 1 more skill, that’s 12 ratings of skill bonuses for only 25 Bp costing 2.08 each, while it would normally cost 48 Bp for that amount of skill, not that skill boost can even be obtained through other means.

Skill- cost are the after that for both adept and mundane, they can mirror each other.

Cyberware-Adepts can get implants, but reduce their magic, but most people wouldn't want that.
Mundanes don't have to worry about that, and implants seem to be the point people use to say mundane get that extra edge with. Internal commlinks are nice, but unneeded, that’s a piece of gear you can't destroy or plant on someone else while on mid-run if they track your datatrail. There are no other matrix intended implants, so you would be then using things mainly for meat body activities. So he can take body, strength, and killing increasing implants, but there’s no additional edge he gets for the matrix.

Healing- It is harder or a adept to be healed, by -2. Though anyone with implants suffers a -1 for every 2 loss of essence.

VR- they both still get the +2 bonus for actions while hot, which they can both do.

Long run- Mundane can get more implants, better programs, skills or gear.
Adepts can do any of those at no extra cost (aside from implants), also if he so chooses can increase his magic, and get a variety of things, or more skill boost

They mirror themselves in choices and costs after that. So ultimately a mundane hacker can get a lot of cyberware and bioware that an adept can't, though this copious amount of implants don't do much for him when he is hacking.

At this point after fully reading it, I am no longer worried about technomancers, as they have there own problems short game, but are great mid and long game.

I am only looking for help balancing, I don't want to make an overpowered character, I fear people using them in my games, or the long argurement of why he can't. Though I think I found something that might help, do adept powers leave a trail on astral? If so do skill boost do? And further more, if all yes, would the signature be where the adept's meat body was sitting, or with the virtual datatrail?

Thanks

Since essentially every peice of gear that a hacker needs is essence free (at least until augmentation comes out, where there is sure to be some fun hacker gear), the only difference build wise between a hacker and a computer adept is the improved ability. The Adept can get improved ability in each computer skill. There is nothing the hacker can do here that the adept can't do. Heck, even a control rig and a datajack would only set the adept back 1 magic point, an expendature well worth it since these are abilities he cannot get as an adept power.

This means that you can take any hacker build you have, add add improved ability to all the hacker skills, and throw around and extra 2 to 3 dice on all computer tests. The adept clearly wins here.

This, in my humble opinion, is what Fastjack is.


If this seems overpowered to you, as it does to me, I suggest raising the cost of improved ability for computer skills to .5 per level. I am considering raising all skill costs to .5 per level, anyway, because the way I run SR non combat skills are as or more important than combat ones (though it is too late to change things for the adept in the party, seeing as how she'd throw a hissy fit if I took away her bonus dice, and she's my wife so she controlls my sex access.)

If you're looking for a way to shut down people for making an adept hacker, you can use the reasoning that since All other adept abilities are placed in the realworld, that there skill boosts would also only work in the real world. In short, magic doesn't or shouldn't work over the matrix. So he could get the bonuses using AR, but not in VR.

Actually, he can have improved ability (hacking) at 4, since adept powers are limited by teh skill cap. See the new errata on the fanpro site.
But 4 dice is nothing to sneeze at.

Wrong. He can have Improved Ability 3, as the maximum improved skill is 10 in this case.

Shadowrun 4 Errata 1.3: aka "Let's F**k Adepts up the A** Again."

Once again there is only limited usefulness to play adepts. I think I might disregard this rule in my house rules. The advantage of adepts in SR4 had been that they effectively had a skill limit of 12 (14) which was impossible for anyone else to get. Now they don't. Pain resistance is better gained through Bio or Drugs, higher IP is better gained through Bio, and armor is better gained through spells or armor. Hmm, what does that leave?

Guess adepts are now going to be nothing but Social Adepts with hordes of magic resistance and attribute boosts.

Hey, that's still 3 dice few other people can get. Show me any way a non-adept can get die bonus that applies to the cap. The only one I can see is reflex recorder, which is a measly 1 die. Adepts are still the skill masters.

I mean, if you don't like it that's fine, but they didn't gimp adepts with the errata. They made them reasonable.

Hmmm, I'm still on the fence on this one. Reasonable is good, but (including the reflex recorder) only getting two more dice than everyone else? That's not even a hit. (average) I agree it should be limited somewhat, but only two dice?
I dunno, adepts are supposed to be much, much better than everyone else at their chosen forte, or so I'd always thought. Two dice at the high end isn't all that much.

except that if you make adepts THAT much cooler than everyone else (as fans of insist is their forte) then what's the point of playing anything BUT an adept?

They need balance. the choice between adept and mundane should be based on HOW you want to acomplish your stats, not what way is BEST. If adept powers don't stack up compared to Bioware, its because Bioware is broken, not because adepts need to be cooler. it's been a tradition now for three editions that increasing reflexes cost the same in adept powers or in essence loss for the cyberware. They needed to rebalance the essence costs of a lot of cyber and bio to make sure that it stayed true.

in SR3, this would have been a horriffic gimp. in SR4, being an adept is something you can tack onto your character almost as an afterthought, so the limitation is probably necessary.

Now, for maximum adept hacker munchyness,

Be a mystic adept who can cast improved attribute (Logic) on oneself. I understnad that the RAW has few tests that actaully require an attribte, but many poeple use house rules that add more use for logic, and even if you don't there are a few tests that it would help for. Get a sustaining focus (Enchanting your commlink would be ideal) and you are in business.

PlatonicPimp: Whoa, whoa. I agree that pre-errata adept were too powerful. No contention there. Those dice pools could get crazy-big. I agree that they needed to be nerfed down a little bit or else, as you say, why play anything else? I agree.
I'm just not convinced that a two-die advantage isn't a little too small. Maybe this is because SR4 takes one of adepts' strongest points and changes it into a very small advantage, planning on letting adepts' other abilities balance them out, and mabe they do. The ability to walk through a metal detector should not be under-rated.

mfb: True, but the GM is not supposed to allow you to tack adept onto another character as an afterthought, as described in the adept quality.
(I say this last bit with a healthy dose of sarcasm, as I'm not particularly fond of that part of the rules. I believe in GM arbitration, but that line is just SO subjective)

hey, why write rules when you have the option of dumping it off on the GM?

In SR3, it cost you 25 points to be an Adept. 1/5 of your total "default" creation value. I wonder what percentage it costs in SR4, even if you factor in then purchasing the 6 power points?

Someone who really cares, do some math. Chop chop.

Well, with Adept costing 5 points, and getting 1 magic free with that, it would cost a total of 70 BP (about 17.5% of your default starting amount of 400) to make an adept with 6 magic. The problem is that you can make VERY skilled individuals at a much lower cost, since you don't HAVE to start with 6 magic. A 2 magic adept is only about 15 BP or about 3.75% of your total build points. That 2 magic can give you, pre 1.3 errata, dice pools of 16+ for things like hacking electronic warfare or even forgery. That's just too much.
With the changes, I think it's been fixed... though admittedly the Adept loses much of it's luster in the change. Obviously, this stuff should have been fixed BEFORE the game was released. If it had been, this would all be a non-issue. Here's hoping that the expansion books will be better proofread, playtested, and typo free.


EDIT - dang - someone beat me to it.

But if they were, they'd have to disagree with the rules in the main book!

Reflex recorders, enhanced articulation give you an extra 2 dice in any physical skills. The Sam is hands down better than the adept with the IA being rewritten. Sure adepts still make better trackers and spotters than sams but they get beaten in combat hands down--again. The only advantage they have in combat is Attribute Boost and Combat Sense, both of which can be done more efficiently by mages.

Like I said at the end of my post Adepts are going to just become social, investigators, and utility characters instead of combat characters. I liked that SR4 had the possibility for amazing Gunsligner adepts or nasty Sword adepts. Now they don't--I think it took a fair chunck of cool factor out of it and rendered Adept something you'd only take if you were planning on playing a non-cybered, non-mage, non-technomancer character for the extra versatility that 1 magic gives you (such as astral sight).

PlatonicPimp: That's 'ok' by me at this point, as long as they clearly state that the expansions override the main sr4 rulebook.

Then they had best print another version of the main rulebook with all the updates after they make the expansion books, otherwise I'll be one pissed of customer. I'd prefer a "SR 4.5" to a buttload of errata in a dozen books.

An Adept can have all the swank stuff that a street sam can have. All the bonuses from gear and even cyberware can be layered onto an Adept.

An Adept can have up to a +3 bonus from Improved Ability, and a Street Sam can have only a +1 or +0 bonus from Reflex Recorder. That's the only difference in the long run for maximum bonuses. The Adept is better at anything he really wants to be than the street samurai is.

Of course, that kind of specialization is really expensive. Street Samurai are usually good at more things, or more discrete, or both than their Adept compatriots. Especially early in their life.

From personal experience, the Adept makes a better sniper (Improved Ability: Longarms!). The Street Samurai makes a better combat generalist (Synthacardiums add to Full Defense Actions).

-Frank

Sammies have gotten gimped, too. Before, they could start out with a higher initiative than any other character. Now, mages and adepts can start out with three initiative passes, and they can't. Plus, a lot of 'ware is either unavailable, or capped at a rating of 2 at char-gen.

Meanwhile, adepts have access to a lot of powers and abilities in addition to improved ability. They can use weapon foci or killing hands to attack magical critters that would give a sammie fits. They can take combat sense or mystic armor, which are useful at low levels and surpass any 'ware at high levels. They can also take critical strike to shred an opponent's body armor like tissue paper. So no, I don't think lowering the Improved Ability power makes them that weak.


By the way... has anyone tried running a fully mundane (no magic or cyber) combat-oriented character? With a high Edge, is that a workable concept? For a sammie, would you be better off starting out with 'ware and "upgrading" later, or starting out mundane, with higher Edge and skills, and just getting the "upgrade" package later?

In the interest of preventing Sanity Checks all around, we might want to wait 'till What's-It-Called-The-Magic-Book comes out before we start wailing on about how Adepts suck.

Or we can check out this handy conversion of almost all the adept powers from SR3

SR3 toSR4: Converting Adept powers.

It's unofficial, of course. But I was impatient.

Okay, I meant four passes. And I don't think taking a hit of a combat drug is as optimal as doing it with a spell or an innate ability. The point is, sammies have limits too. On the plus side, cyber has gotten cheaper. So I'm not as sure about an uncybered mundane being that viable. For what the sammie spends on cyber, you can have a higher Edge but that's about it.

Until the cybered sam (who is likely to have 6+ (cyber-)implants or (normal) illegal items) happens to come accross a cyberware scanner (p.254, and take a look in errata 1.3). Even a average scanner (Rating 3) gets a +3 Bonus on it's dice pool (errata) getting 6 dice against a threshold of 1 for the weaponry and standard ware and 2-3 for Alpha to Betaware.
The scanner is likely to detect the Sam. But not the Adept.

I do not know why people always assume that an adept is immune to being scanned. Any place worth breaking into (including especially any airport that has more than 5 seater planes) will include astral scanning too, usually by secmage or by spirit if not available otherwise. Maybe both.

So you need to get permits just like the sam. The Adept can get masking and the sam can go mostly bio to limit scans.

The adept has limitless potential, but not as big a bang out of the gate. However, is likely one of the more effective counters for spirits.

Critical strike is just very good. Killing hands as well. That limits you to unarmed though, as they don't work with weapon focus.

All in all though, I don't think Sams are that much more effective than adepts. Not to the degree being suggested here. Especially considering that adepts can smartlink just as well as sams now.


As for sams and adepts both being faster using AR than hotsim hackers and technos, I fixed that by making matrix passes be dependant on access, not user.
AR access - 1 Pass
VR Cold - 2 Pass
VR Hot - 3 Pass
Techno Overclocking echo makes VR 4 Passes (They are always Hot )
Also note, Edge can be used to grant extra IPs in Matrix as well.