Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Skillsoft Incompetence
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Gothic Rose
QUOTE
A skillsoft program is a programmed/recorded skill—
as in, a person’s knowledge and memory (including “muscle
memory”). When used in conjunction with the proper
hardware or cyberware, skillsofts allow users to know and
do things they never otherwise learned. When a skill test is
called for, the character may use the skillsoft rating in place
of an appropriate skill.
If the character already possesses the
skill, use whichever rating is higher. (SR4 P. 320)


QUOTE
The character is treated as having a skill level of “unaware” for
that particular skill (see the Skill Ratings Table, beginning on p.
108 for more information). In some cases, a Success Test may be required
to perform certain tasks that most people take for granted.
Characters may not possess that skill, nor may they default on it. (SR4 P. 82)


I just realized that there is nothing forbidding someone from taking the Incompetent Negative Quality, and, using a skillwire system and an Activesoft, having that skill anyways. Sure, you can't spend edge on it, but that's 5 bonus points for sacrificing...well...nothing.

Thoughts?
Moon-Hawk
Well, if you replace the word "nothing" with the words, "the cost of the skillwire system, the chip, the essence, and the ability to use edge", then I totally agree with you.
Gothic Rose
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Well, if you replace the word "nothing" with the words, "the cost of the skillwire system, the chip, the essence, and the ability to use edge", then I totally agree with you.

True - but, skillwire is a common bit of cyber - every street sam I've made in SR4 so far has had one.

This is only applicable with a razored character of course, but it's still kinda loopy.
Azralon
If you take Incomp: Unarmed (+5 BP) and then buy Skillwires 3 (6k nuyen, .6 Essence) and then the Unarmed-3 Activesoft (9k nuyen) for a total of 15k nuyen (3 BPs), then you're basically trading in .6 Essence and the ability to roll Edge on Unarmed for 2 BPs.

Moon-Hawk
I absolutely agree. Especially that skillwires are a great bit of gear. But a skillwire system can only do so much at a time, so the skill making up for your incompetance is using part of the skillwire system that could be doing something else. Sure, you can switch skills, but sometimes time is tight.

If all you're saying is that it seems like a really good idea to take incompetance in a skill you're planning on chipping anyway, I definitely agree.
If you're saying that the incompetance/skillwire exchange is such an amazingly great deal then every character should do this no question, I think there are enough disadvantages in the mix to disagree.
If you just pointing out that characters with an incompetance should seriously consider skillwires, I agree and it sounds like a very realistic, in-character thing to do.
Kerberos
QUOTE (Azralon)
If you take Incomp: Unarmed (+5 BP) and then buy Skillwires 3 (6k nuyen, .6 Essence) and then the Unarmed-3 Activesoft (9k nuyen) for a total of 15k nuyen (3 BPs), then you're basically trading in .6 Essence and the ability to roll Edge on Unarmed for 2 BPs.

Yeah, but obviously you'd take incompetent many times, not just one. Also you could take skillwire Alpha and reduce your essence loss to 0,48. My GM incidentially stated, quite sensibly IMO, that if you bought skillwire for a skill you were incompetent in, he'd rule that you didn't understand the program.
Rotbart van Dainig
From an IC PoV, using skillwires for things you can neither learn nor really try is about the only way to ever do them. wink.gif

Incompetence in SR4 shouldn't be taken lightly, though.
Moon-Hawk
I didn't think about taking incompetance multiple times.
Maybe incompetance should give diminishing returns. One incompetance gives you 5 points, but if you take it agian you only get 2, or something like that.
Thoughts?
Rotbart van Dainig
Incompetence is a crippling flaw in SR4... those measly 5 BP are hardly worth it.

Taking it multiple times is, well, somehow masochistic.
Mr. Unpronounceable
QUOTE (Azralon)
If you take Incomp: Unarmed (+5 BP) and then buy Skillwires 3 (6k nuyen, .6 Essence) and then the Unarmed-3 Activesoft (9k nuyen) for a total of 15k nuyen (3 BPs), then you're basically trading in .6 Essence and the ability to roll Edge on Unarmed for 2 BPs.

Hmm...I think you're off a bit:

total savings should be 14bp, actually - you're forgetting to account for matching final numbers (unarmed 3 = 12 bp)

unless I'm mistaken about how skillwires work.
Kerberos
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Incompetence is a crippling flaw in SR4... those measly 5 BP are hardly worth it.

Taking it multiple times is, well, somehow masochistic.

That would depend on how, and how much your GM uses notority. Skillwire essentially eliminates the direct negative effect of not being able to use the skill.
ElFenrir
It would just suck if the person lost their softs now, wouldn't it?

Yeah, Incompetence is a rather masochistic flaw. It SEEMS alright(ahh, boy, the Archetype sammie is incompetent in hacking, whee), but really, you don't want to be stuck with them. Remember people who take incompetence in varied social skills, you also cannot default to defend against them being used against you.

As for the skillwires thing, yeah, you pay for it a bit, but...no edge, and they CAN be taken from you. Woe to the person who makes themselves Incompetent in four or so skills and tries to wire them all in...
Kerberos
QUOTE (ElFenrir)
It would just suck if the person lost their softs now, wouldn't it?

Yeah, Incompetence is a rather masochistic flaw. It SEEMS alright(ahh, boy, the Archetype sammie is incompetent in hacking, whee), but really, you don't want to be stuck with them. Remember people who take incompetence in varied social skills, you also cannot default to defend against them being used against you.

As for the skillwires thing, yeah, you pay for it a bit, but...no edge, and they CAN be taken from you. Woe to the person who makes themselves Incompetent in four or so skills and tries to wire them all in...

Well obviously your Street samurai shouldn't be incompetent in Dodge, Pistols, Automatics, Longarms, Blades, Clubs and Unarmed. You'd pick skill that you expected not to use to much, and use the Skillwire as insurance.
emo samurai
What about a mage who's incompetent at hacking? That's okay, since no one could give him lethal biofeedback.
mintcar
Qualities are by their very nature extremely easy to exploit if they are not kept in check by the GM. It is obviously a good idea to slot skillsofts of things you are incompetent at, sure, as is getting lenses if you see badly or getting a cyberarm if you´ve lost your right arm. The qualities you take will still have to be ok´d by the GM and fit your character though. I for one do not allow players to take incompetence in any skill that for some reason would never be used by the character anyway (skills that are called for by circumstance are always allowed, like infiltration, perception and dodge). Taking that into account, I think skillwires actually make the 5BP award for this quality a bit more fair. It can be a very big disadvantage without them.
PlatonicPimp
In my campaign I forbade incompetence for any of the Trained only skills, those that were in italics on the skill list. you can't default on those anyway, so incompetence with those wasn't really a drawback. The only exception I made was for magic skills for mages, as that seemed the best way to make aspecected summoners and conjourers.

I'd rule that skillwires would overcome incompetence, just make sure you don't take incompetence in computers!
Grinder
QUOTE (Azralon)
If you take Incomp: Unarmed (+5 BP) and then buy Skillwires 3 (6k nuyen, .6 Essence) and then the Unarmed-3 Activesoft (9k nuyen) for a total of 15k nuyen (3 BPs), then you're basically trading in .6 Essence and the ability to roll Edge on Unarmed for 2 BPs.

True, but nothing prevents you from starting the game without the skillsoft and buy it later in the game, thus saving the 3 BPs.
Space Ghost
If someone wants to take incompetence 7 times at chargen, that's fine by me. If they get the skillwires in game, that could be even cooler. i like the idea that if you don't like an aspect of yourself, the science of 2070 is there to cater to your consumer needs. It's gone beyond facelifts and liposuction to the point where now you can get your muscles augmented. Bioware is more common, so if you have the cash, they can actually make you smarter. Think of the ad campaigns constantly reinforcing the idea that you aren't good enough the way you are.

Imagine the ultimate social catastrophe. He's ugly, fat, weak, dumb, socially incompetent and (most importantly) rich. With the right amount of cash he can make himself handsome, lean, strong, smart, skilled and (possibly) poor.

Anything can be bought in shadowrun.

If you're worried that the "free" BP from incompetence is too good, just reinforce the character's negative notoriety. If you took incompetent 7 times, that's 7 notoriety. Mr. Johnson doesn't want you on his run, because everyone knows that you're a nobody who bought his way into the shadows. People like you can be made by taking some guy off the street and shoving some 'ware into him. If you're skillchips were ever taken away, you'd useless.

And it certainly doesn't matter if you deserve your bad rep. Maybe you're really good at magic or hacking or whatever. Somehow you got a bum rap, and it will hurt your paycheck.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Kerberos @ Jan 6 2006, 08:56 PM)
That would depend on how, and how much your GM uses notority.

Actually, having notority is a very good thing on the long run - it gives you street cred to burn.
mfb
it could be argued that, since the character isn't normally allowed to even roll the attribute linked to the skill in question on tests that require that skill, they only get the dice from the skillsoft.
Space Ghost
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Kerberos @ Jan 6 2006, 08:56 PM)
That would depend on how, and how much your GM uses notority.

Actually, having notority is a very good thing on the long run - it gives you street cred to burn.

Notoriety doesn't give street cred, it adds to public awareness though.

Or did you mean that having more negative notoriety allows you to burn more street cred and therefore keep Public Awareness down due to lack of street cred and notoriety? Because that isn't necessary.

It looks like you can burn street cred even when you don't have notoriety. This would give a negative notoriety (which is good). i'm not sure how a negative notoriety factors into public awareness, though. By the numbers, it keeps public awareness down. Does that seem right? i suppose the news prefers to report the darker side of things. Maybe no one wants to hear about "good" shadowrunners.
Rotbart van Dainig
True, but negative notority eats dice when intimidating people.
Space Ghost
If they know who you are, yeah. i suppose i hadn't thought of that.
Kerberos
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jan 6 2006, 04:55 PM)
True, but negative notority eats dice when intimidating people.

Yeah, the notority rules are bizare. If I'm super-incompetent, unlucky, is a drug addict try to look like and elf or ork, has no education, is infirm or freeze in combat question.gif then people fear me. I mean just think of it:
"I Am Bozo! The illiterate, incompetent and cowadly criple. TREMBLE before Me!!"
wobble.gif
I'm not to sure that negative notority actually subtracts dice though. It says notority is added as a bonus to intimidation (p. 258), nothing about potentially being subtracted if it's negative. To further add to the odness, a mass-murdering hugely succesfull runner, can apparently by pure magic tranform himself into somebody that no one has ever heard of. silly.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Kerberos)
Yeah, the notority rules are bizare.

unfortunately, every bit of the reputation rules is bizarre... sleepy.gif
Kerberos
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Kerberos @ Jan 7 2006, 01:03 AM)
Yeah, the notority rules are bizare.

unfortunately, every bit of the reputation rules is bizarre... sleepy.gif

Hmm, I think what I mentioned where the most obvious absurdities, the rest seems to be at least superficially reasonable. What specifically were you thinking of?
Rotbart van Dainig
Street cred itself - it accumulates far too quickly... and acting as bonus dice to social tests, that is quite nasty.
elbows
The reputation rules are a neat idea, but the actual implementation of them is rather lacking.
In my game, all of the reputation stats are determined by GM fiat. If you act professional and succeed at runs, you gain street cred. If you're reckless, dangerous, or untrustworthy, you gain notoriety. And if you make the news, you gain public awareness.

The GM can also decrease your reputation stats if it's appropriate -- I think public awareness in particular should be a rather transient thing.

My game hasn't been running too long, but it seems to be working out well so far.
Kerberos
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Street cred itself - it accumulates far too quickly... and acting as bonus dice to social tests, that is quite nasty.

Ahh, OK I haven't tried playing SR4 yet and I'm very new to SR3 too so I wouldn't know about that, the principle seems sensible enough, but the acumulation speed is obviously an issue. The GM using his judgement seems the best option, also when it comes to how to use the stats in social tests. I can see how working for a dragon or behaving like a psycho could add to you intimidation but bungling a run isn't likely too.
BlackHat
QUOTE

If you take Incomp: Unarmed (+5 BP) and then buy Skillwires 3 (6k nuyen, .6 Essence) and then the Unarmed-3 Activesoft (9k nuyen) for a total of 15k nuyen (3 BPs), then you're basically trading in .6 Essence and the ability to roll Edge on Unarmed for 2 BPs.


You might also want to take into account that the alternative (the option where you can roll edge on unarmed) would require NOT taking Incomp: Unarmed, and buying Unarmed 3 (12 bp)... so you have the option of paying 12 BP for Unarmed 3, or GAINING 2 BP, and having it skillwired (so no edge). That's a 14 BP difference, which is a bigger deal.

OF course, all the characters I have made so far that WOULD consider getting cyberware, have already maxed out their nuyen to have tons of cool gear/cyber... so it doesn't really work out like that. Also, I fear space-cows, so I wouldn't try it in a game... but it does make sense that someone who was absolutely abysmal at something, would try to compensate by having hteir skillwires do it for them (especialyl if they already had skillwires for some other reason).

Course there is a limit to how many skills you can have on the wires at a time, so I am sure a reasonably clever DM could make you regret taking incompetance more than once.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012