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PlatonicPimp
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
The rules are quite clear that the power increases velocity, though. wink.gif

Yes, but that's because velocity is defined by distance divided by time. It decreses the time it takes to get somewhere, so it increases overall velocity.

My ruling is that is does NOT increase moment velocity. How can you increase overall velocity without increasing moment velocity? Screw off physics, this is magic.
FrankTrollman
PP's interpretation is pretty valid. The power never mentions "velocity" only "movement rate."

And since you apparently can't use movement on the ammunition of your Hamtarocannon to do ludicrous amounts of damage, the time dialation explanation for that power is probably the best one.

-Frank
Cray74
QUOTE (Vertaxis666)
F=mv^2

Actually, you probably want:

Kinetic energy = 0.5 x Mass x (Velocity^2)

Force doesn't say much about how much energy is available to move mass (local buildings and terrain), incinerate bystanders, etc.
nick012000
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
PP's interpretation is pretty valid. The power never mentions "velocity" only "movement rate."

And since you apparently can't use movement on the ammunition of your Hamtarocannon to do ludicrous amounts of damage, the time dialation explanation for that power is probably the best one.

-Frank

Umm... velocity is "movement rate". More specifically, it is "rate of change of displacement with respect to time".

Also, no known magic can warp spacetime, according to the spell design rules in MitS.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Adarael)
Taken to the utmost, 1 Earth = 1 object = 1 subject.


That is correct.

It is possible for a magician to powerbolt the Earth into oblivion, but it won't harm anything on the Earth (sudden exposure to the vaccum and other related trauma will). Since one can only see an extremely small portion of the earth visibility modifiers apply. This, combined with enough Body to reliably stage a nuclear explosion down to zero, makes powerbolting the Earth very difficult. In SR4, it is possible only when using edge, due to extreme threshold and dice pool modifiers. In SR3, it is possible due to the rule of 6. Needless to say, it is inevetable that some dumbass will eventually do this and succeed.

Likewise, it is possible to powerbolt a 747. The attack will do nothing to the passengers, since they are not the targets. However, the falling out of the sky can't be good for their health. It isn't much of a leap to say that a spirit can use Movement on a 747 and that the 747 will push the people inside of it (which, really, is how it works without the movement power. The engines puch the fusaloge forward while the wings push it up. The fusaloge, in turn, pushes the people and things inside.)






QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
The rules are quite clear that the power increases velocity, though. wink.gif

Yes, but that's because velocity is defined by distance divided by time. It decreses the time it takes to get somewhere, so it increases overall velocity.

My ruling is that is does NOT increase moment velocity. How can you increase overall velocity without increasing moment velocity? Screw off physics, this is magic.


Velocity is realitive to a frame of referance. In reality, everything on Earth is moving at a very high rate. We don't notice because everyhting is moving at the same rate. It is possible to do what you describe using various quirks of Realitivity. However, deciding that spirits do so violates the tried and true 'magic can't warp space-time unless you are an IE with bad taste in face pain't rule. Yeah, if you had a gravity elemental generate a small black hole that would work since it isn't directly warping space-time, but it would kill everyone.
TheHappyAnarchist
Darn, and it seemed to work other than that.

I just really think the movement power was never well thought out and was always way to good.

Though one of my favorite tricks I figgered with it was when infiltrating a ship, we turned our motorboat off and started paddling. Made good speed with the F4 water elemental assist. wink.gif No emissions, low low signature.
PlatonicPimp
Ya'll missed my point. You are apllying Physics to magic, which does not work. Physics is the objectively observed universe acting the way it does due to it's inherent laws. Magic is you manipulating the way you think about the world using symbols to affect change in your observed world. They don't intersect.

I feel the movement power directly says screw you physics by increasing distance over time without increasing velocity. This violates the very definition of velocity, but this is magic, and you can do that kind of shit.
Cray74
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
It is possible for a magician to powerbolt the Earth into oblivion

The Earth isn't one object. A power bolt hitting the Earth is going to hit an object like "a few cubic meters of soil" or "a boulder."
Azralon
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
Ya'll missed my point. You are apllying Physics to magic, which does not work. Physics is the objectively observed universe acting the way it does due to it's inherent laws. Magic is you manipulating the way you think about the world using symbols to affect change in your observed world. They don't intersect.

Agreed.

Now, once every few thousand years, physics and magic move in together and occasionally share the same bed, but they still keep their clothes in different drawers.

Were I to define physics, I'd say it's "the laws that define the mundane world." Magic is "the laws that define the astral world." By canonical definition, the two realities share the same temporal and spatial attributes but pretty much anything else is fair game for cosmic disagreements.
Azralon
QUOTE (Cray74 @ Jan 10 2006, 02:12 PM)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 10 2006, 01:50 PM)
It is possible for a magician to powerbolt the Earth into oblivion

The Earth isn't one object. A power bolt hitting the Earth is going to hit an object like "a few cubic meters of soil" or "a boulder."

Well, that's shaky ground there (no pun intended). Per the flavor text of previous editions, everything has an auric "whole." Combat spells affect a thing's aura holistically, which is why you can't use the Called Shot rules with them. Indirect spells target points in space rather than entire auras, so you can target subcomponents of objects (tires on a car, for instance).

So casting a Power Bolt into the Earth's living aura (yes, the planet has a living aura, as mentioned even in SR4) would do damage to the whole thing.

Now you get to ponder the question of how many "Body" dice our beloved planet has to soak that spell with, and how long its Physical Condition monitor should be.
Darkness
QUOTE (Azralon @ Jan 10 2006, 08:46 PM)
QUOTE (Cray74 @ Jan 10 2006, 02:12 PM)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 10 2006, 01:50 PM)
It is possible for a magician to powerbolt the Earth into oblivion

The Earth isn't one object. A power bolt hitting the Earth is going to hit an object like "a few cubic meters of soil" or "a boulder."

Well, that's shaky ground there (no pun intended). Per the flavor text of previous editions, everything has an auric "whole." Combat spells affect a thing's aura holistically, which is why you can't use the Called Shot rules with them. Indirect spells target points in space rather than entire auras, so you can target subcomponents of objects (tires on a car, for instance).

So casting a Power Bolt into the Earth's living aura (yes, the planet has a living aura, as mentioned even in SR4) would do damage to the whole thing.

Now you get to ponder the question of how many "Body" dice our beloved planet has to soak that spell with, and how long its Physical Condition monitor should be.

That leads to the question, how much willpower does the earth have, and can you stun it.
rotfl.gif
SCNR.
Azralon
Heh. As I walked away from my desk, I knew someone would bring that up. I almost turned around for the pre-emptive strike.

Ah well; here it is, better late than never:

"The Earth has a Willpower of 0. You successfully Stunbolt it. It falls more asleep."
Gothic Rose
QUOTE (Azralon)
Were I to define physics, I'd say it's "the laws that define the mundane world." Magic is "the laws that define the astral world." By canonical definition, the two realities share the same temporal and spatial attributes but pretty much anything else is fair game for cosmic disagreements.

I concur. Magic definitely has its rules - it's own brand of physics, if you will, that can be categorized and filed, but they're different from the rules of physics. This is why MIT&T exists, after all.
hyzmarca
I'm going to disgree with everyone here and say that magic and physics are not seperate. In face, I'm going to say that physics is caused by magic in SR/ED universe. The properties of all matter (and probably energy) down to its most baic levels is due to Platonic Forms called Patterns in Earthdawn parlance. Magic is the act of using mana to temperorilary or permenantly alter or influance those patterns.

Object resistance is a result of of having multiple seperate Patterns chopped up and squished together to create a new larger pattern by mundane means. Essence loss is caused by depatternization due to magic (in the case of vampires and other such creatures) or due to stuffing an inanimate Pattern in the middle of your living True Pattern.



I wonder if Background Count would apply to someone attacking the moon from Earth. I have this vision of a SURGEd mystic adept destroying the moon so he won't have to deal with a juvinile were-monkey. grinbig.gif
Azralon
It's more of a matter of perspective, Hyz. Opposite poles of a magnet act radically differently, but they're still both co-dependent parts of the same whole.

You could view the entire cosmos, in all of its multiple dimensions, as one singular system, and by extension you could say that both your chair and the rear end sitting in it are fundamentally the same thing.

With regards to discrete behaviors and rulesets, though, so-called "magic" and so-called "science" in SR/ED are different things. Sure, in ED they're meshed together so tightly (due to the very close alignment of the astral to the physical realms) that they're nigh indistinguishable, but the very existence of mana cycles illustrates that they're fundamentally separate realities.

Man, I love this kinda armchair metaphysical blabbity blah. It's so important-sounding yet so baseless. biggrin.gif
Lindt
Interesting note.

IIRC, A semiballistic flys normally for a while (untill its both gained some good hight and is far away from a major city), then fires up the big chemical rockets and goes ballistic. So prehaps one is starting its take off flight, and gets its big guns lit up. Suddenly you have a mach 2 object screaming at very low hight over a city and eventually into several buildings. Id say you could lose a city block or 2 from that sorta impact. Not to mention what damage a large plane doing 2000 mph or so would do just from the shockwave.

Lagomorph
Just use the spirit movement power on the semiballistic. I guess that would probably change the semiballistic to a veryballistic though..
Taki
<mode french troll on>
smile.gif to lindt : the international unit is km/h
<mode french troll off>

<mode troll still on !>
if a spirit can accelerate a large plane, which I doubt
<mode troll off>

OK, let's go to sleep !
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