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LaughingTiger
So, I'm getting ready to blow up my own little world to usher in SR4. I'm planning several "scenes" to show just how bad the crash of the entire matrix would be.

In my St. Louis, an aging Lambert Intl. Airport was taken over by Fed-Boeing who revitalized the old MacDonald Douglas plant. Now know as MacDonald-Douglas Internatioanl airport (or "the Mac" to the locals) the vastly improved facility was home to the first Semi-ballistic launch and landing. (only in my world, I have no idea where the first was according to cannon.)

As part of the Matrix crash, I was planning on having a out-of-control semiballisitic slam into the Mac. I asked a friend much smarter than I am what kind of devestation this would cause and he said I'm looking at nuclear blast-level shockwaves from the impact of something that large moving that fast.

What say you, oh Dumpshockers? How much damage would an falling semiballistic slamming into the ground at near full speed cause?
RunnerPaul
I'd put it in the same ballpark as the Tunguska impact event.
mfb
i really don't think a semiballistic is going to put out as much of a shockwave as a nuke.
bclements
Blood in the Boardroom has a semiballistic crash in it (Flight 118, IIRC). I'll look it up to see what kind of damage it caused.

EDIT: Looked it up. I'd probably compare it to a SCUD blast, or some other type of industrial explosion (refinary or chemical plant). BitB mentions that the wreckage of the crashed semiballistic was scattered over a large area, so you'd have a primary impact point with secondary damage occuring as the plane kept going after impact.

Westiex
Depends largely on the wieight of the object, but yeah, you'd be looking at a fairly large blast.

In quite a few novels one side or another have what are basically 'rocks droped from orbit'. Hard to hit a stationary target with, but great if you need to take out a hardened fortification without the messiness of nuclear fallout. The Rich Man's Nuke, as its been put.
the_dunner
Sounds about like a Thor Shot hitting.

Lessee, it's coming in at Mach 19 per R3R. The smaller one has a cargo capacity of 8000kg + 126 Passengers (@ say 70kg each) = 16820kg that's more than 18 US tons, and it doesn't allow for the mass of the Vehicle itself.

On the plus side, it probably didn't have much fuel. nyahnyah.gif

Yeah, nuclear blast impact seems reasonable.
Fix-it
In Blood in the Boardroom, the Semiballistic landed in Redmond, so no one really cared about the damage it did on the ground (or the people living there).
Rotbart van Dainig
Wasn't that a suborbital trying to land and 'just' missing the airport?
FrankTrollman
I'm really not sure why anyone would make a semiballistic. In the world of Shadowrun, a regular plane that flies within the atmosphere can be accelerated with the movement power and protected with the guard power. A semi-ballistic leaves the atmosphere and can't benefit from either one.

A 747 has an economical cruising speed of 907 km/hr. So if each airport sends them off with a Force 4 unbound spirit on remote service, they are traveling at 3628 km/hr. That means that you can easily make it from Seattle to New York in an hour. With a 747 and a Force 4 spirit. You could also invest real money and power and get much better speeds.

-Frank
mfb
that's a lot of mages working at airports. also, in SR3, the movement power is not nearly as handy for vehicles as it is for living beings. don't know about SR4.
Fix-it
In Target:Wastelands, there was a section on space travel,

of which there is a lot of corp-owned space stations, with regular transfer of CEOs and other important peeps up and down the gravity well. (Zurich Orbital is one example)

having a semiballistic that can make ground to ground transfers, as well as space-ground and ground-space would be immensley usefull, as well as the fact that you could go from beijing to NYC in a matter of an hour or two.
Rotbart van Dainig
Actually, no semiballistics are used for space travel:
They really are only able of semiballistic flight - no big maneuvering, no circling, nothing.

For those occasions, suborbitals are equipped with additional booster rockets.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (mfb)
that's a lot of mages working at airports.

Not really. A single magician can conjure a Force 4 spirit and send it off to motivate an airplane every 6 seconds until he becomes too tired (drain is extremely random - one out of 81 spirits summoned forces a character to resist 8S). But even if you do take a big pile of Drain, you can get your mage back up and running with First Aid in less than a minute. What you're really going to run short on is medkits.

A single Magician + Medical Staff unit can speed every plane that leaves an airport. If you think there's any magical security in airports at all, you can bet your ass that every plane gets movemented by a Force 4 Spirit. The prospect of saving 180,000 litres of jet fuel per tank is simply too lucrative of a proposition to pass up.

-Frank
mfb
don't magicians have a limit on the number of unbound spirits they can have at one time? and are you sure there aren't any special rules for using the movement power on vehicles in SR4? i ask because there are in SR3, but few people realized it.
Rotbart van Dainig
No special rules.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (mfb)
don't magicians have a limit on the number of unbound spirits they can have at one time?

Yes. You can only have 1 unbound spirit at a time. But once you detail the spirit to accelerating the plane it doesn't count against your control limit any more. It's called a Remote Service.

QUOTE
and are you sure there aren't any special rules for using the movement power on vehicles in SR4? i ask because there are in SR3, but few people realized it.


Yep. Sure. Those rules didn't exist in SR1 or SR2, and they don't exist in SR4.

-Frank
Cray74
QUOTE (LaughingTiger)
As part of the Matrix crash, I was planning on having a out-of-control semiballisitic slam into the Mac. I asked a friend much smarter than I am what kind of devestation this would cause and he said I'm looking at nuclear blast-level shockwaves from the impact of something that large moving that fast.

What say you, oh Dumpshockers? How much damage would an falling semiballistic slamming into the ground at near full speed cause?

Your friend exaggerated.

After burning off its fuel, a semiballistic should be 50 to 250 tons (based on RL engineering studies and flown hardware).

Assuming that MIRACULOUSLY the semiballistic maintains full orbital velocity (7800m/s) from orbit to the ground, and assuming that the semiballistic was 250 tons on re-entry, impact would yield:

7.6E12 Joules

A megaton is 4E16 Joules, so the impact blast would be comparable to 190 tons of TNT.

In fact, most re-entry vehicles (due to their basic shape) will slow to about mach 1 if they re-enter intact simply due to drag. You need specialized re-entry vehicle shapes (e.g., MIRVs) to maintain hypersonic velocities through the troposphere. Therefore, a 250-ton semiballistic will only hit with about 11.25 gigajoules (or less than a ton of TNT).

QUOTE
A 747 has an economical cruising speed of 907 km/hr. So if each airport sends them off with a Force 4 unbound spirit on remote service, they are traveling at 3628 km/hr. That means that you can easily make it from Seattle to New York in an hour. With a 747 and a Force 4 spirit. You could also invest real money and power and get much better speeds.


A semiballistic should travel at close to orbital velocities (or it won't travel more than a few dozen miles on a ballistic course.) With orbital velocity being 25000kph, the semiballistic would be 7 times as fast as the 747+spirit.

The 747+spirit could get between Seattle and New York in an hour. The semiballistic could get to the far side of the Earth (~20000km) in an hour, allowing for acceleration and braking.

QUOTE
The prospect of saving 180,000 litres of jet fuel per tank is simply too lucrative of a proposition to pass up.


It is attractive for cattle-car and freight flights. However, there are travel markets where speed pays for itself.
Jaid
unbound spirits on remote service no longer count towards the magician's maximum.

of course, should that ever get abused by a player, i feel confident the GM will start having the spirits spend edge, but as Frank said, it mostly needs a fairly hefty medical team to work at it's full potential. and a wizard with lots of drain resistance, i guess, but mainly the medical team.

oh, plus i personally would probably add a spirit with the Guard power protecting the conjuring magician from glitches.
mfb
egad. i think the worst part about SR4 is the horrible things i could accomplish with it.
LaughingTiger
QUOTE (Cray74)


In fact, most re-entry vehicles (due to their basic shape) will slow to about mach 1 if they re-enter intact simply due to drag. You need specialized re-entry vehicle shapes (e.g., MIRVs) to maintain hypersonic velocities through the troposphere. Therefore, a 250-ton semiballistic will only hit with about 11.25 gigajoules (or less than a ton of TNT).

can you give me an idea of how much destruction less than a ton of TNT would cause?
MK Ultra
As GM, Id say, the resistance of the air would lead to movement being less effective at very high speeds. Im aware of this problem since realizing that a very powerful NPC Mage of mine could make over Mach 1 with a high powerd Levitationspell in SR3, even without Movement. So I outlawed these Mangaesqu speeds throu spells and spirits.

Besids, in SR (since SR 1 or 2, NAGRL) even normal long range passenger airplains are hypersonic making Mach 3 or 5 or something. They do the Seattle-Tokio in under 2 hours, semibalistics & suborbitals get you there in under an hour!

Id allso say a wagemage summoning what, 48 (counting very low) spirits a day wont live very long! Even If he manages it with little drain, attended to by medics, it would have a horrible impact on his organism over the months and years (surely dont need to reccon in decades). Being a to the edge doped pro athlet is a cakewalk in comperrison to getting 10 medcit-applications a day!

Edit: Aztech in the haydays of sacrificemagic may consider this rout, but IMO it shoud not work.

Edit 2: Ah, the crash zone in the redmond barrens is described in some detail in the New Seattle sb.
Jaid
so you only have movement on a few planes. this is just to replace the suborbitals and semiballistics remember, not all the planes.

and you have a few different magicians doing it. the airport probably already has several on their payroll. why not have them rotate between security duty and boosting the planes?
Ed_209a
QUOTE (LaughingTiger)
can you give me an idea of how much destruction less than a ton of TNT would cause?

A standard 500lb aircraft bomb (roughly 250lbs explosive) can level most small to mid-sized office buildings with a direct hit. (Or midsize to large homes.)

A ton of TNT is 8 times that much energy.

Your semibal kamakazi won't be apocalyptic, but it will equal all but the largest car bombs you have ever heard of.

The bomb that destroyed the Murrah building in Oklahoma City was roughly 2.5 tons. Due to it's composition, is had roughly the same force as 1.25 tons of TNT.

Pull up a picture of the Murrah building and picture your semibal doing that.
LaughingTiger
You guys rock, thanks for the input and the interesting conversation.
Taki
You guys really think a force 4 spirit could accelerate with the movement power a target of a 747 size ??? eek.gif ???
Is this a joke ?
I don't think it works in the SR world. (otherwise there should seriously have been such example in the sr4 book presentation of magic).
the power movement works on a SUBJECT - which is a living thing (to my mind), and this seems quite evident when you compare with other power scale (such as concealment).

- if you want a big shock, have a military plane fulled with "normal" and tactical nuclear bomb to crash ...
MK Ultra
Or maybe one of the corps loses a thor shot or two during the crash cyber.gif
kigmatzomat
The easiest way to get the biggest boom for the buck is to have the SB detonate on the launch pad. If the SB is using cryogenic fuels (meaning "have to be below 0c just to be liquid") a rupture in the tanks will turn the SB into an fuel/air explosive (FAE) as the fuel rapidly (and possibly explosively) turns to vapor, one of the few weapons that can rival a nuke for destructive power.

Assuming the SB doesn't experience forces beyond 3Gs (same as the space shuttle) and that air resistance is negligible this would be 6.6E13J or 600T of TNT.

Air resistance is so very much not negligible at those velocities nor does this quick calculation factor in the energy required to accelerate the fuel but we can assume that excess energy is wasted in simple heat as the SB is not a very efficient bomb.

I would imagine that SBs are launched from underground vaults so that a launch failure results in a spectacular vertical burst but there's not much they can do if the SB detonates at 100' from the ground.
MK Ultra
SBs in SR start just like ordinary planes, leaving the populated area (though barrens dont count, maybe) ant than begins to ascend rocketlike. Allso, when a SB or SO arrives at its destination there is no fuel left! It cant even make a second trial on landing. 1st landing attempt bothed = SB/SO crashes!
Jaid
QUOTE (Taki)
You guys really think a force 4 spirit could accelerate with the movement power a target of a 747 size ??? eek.gif ???
Is this a joke ?
I don't think it works in the SR world. (otherwise there should seriously have been such example in the sr4 book presentation of magic).
the power movement works on a SUBJECT - which is a living thing (to my mind), and this seems quite evident when you compare with other power scale (such as concealment).

- if you want a big shock, have a military plane fulled with "normal" and tactical nuclear bomb to crash ...

yes. yes, as a matter of fact i do think it would work.

in point of fact, it worked in SR3, too, in theory.

of course, in SR3, i believe the spirit had to roll it's force against a TN equal to the vehicle's body (and possibly + armor, can't remember fully), so good luck getting any successes with a force 4 spirit against a TN that's probably up around 15+

plus i think you had to get at least 2 successes for it to do anything at all, not sure though...

in SR4, however, this is definitely possible, indeed *easy*

there is no test involved. you just apply the spirit's force (actually it's magic, which is equal to it's force) to the movement speed of the subject, either multiplying or dividing (depending on if you want faster or slower, obviously).

and you will notice that it is a physical power; that is, it can affect objects too.
Cray74
QUOTE (LaughingTiger)
QUOTE (Cray74 @ Jan 7 2006, 05:42 PM)


In fact, most re-entry vehicles (due to their basic shape) will slow to about mach 1 if they re-enter intact simply due to drag. You need specialized re-entry vehicle shapes (e.g., MIRVs) to maintain hypersonic velocities through the troposphere. Therefore, a 250-ton semiballistic will only hit with about 11.25 gigajoules (or less than a ton of TNT).

can you give me an idea of how much destruction less than a ton of TNT would cause?

How about instead I point to some airplane crashes that involved about 250 tons of aircraft moving at about the impact speed of an intact semiballistic:

This was a 747 that made a nice crater and roughed up the surrounding buildings (the Lockerbie, Scotland bombing):

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/WORLD/europe/08/...rbie.crater.jpg

And this Concorde crash flattened a hotel:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bristol/content/conco...orde_crash1.jpg

QUOTE
if you want a big shock, have a military plane fulled with "normal" and tactical nuclear bomb to crash ...


If a modern nuclear weapon is caught in a violent environment (e.g., plane crash; grenades nearby; it's shot, etc.), you're just going to have a small radiation hazard. Assuming the first stage explosives in the nuke detonate at all, they won't detonate with the correct timing to properly implode the plutonium. You'll have some chunks of plutonium tossed here and there.

And, no, plutonium is not as uber-toxic as some fearmongers suggest.

QUOTE
The easiest way to get the biggest boom for the buck is to have the SB detonate on the launch pad. If the SB is using cryogenic fuels (meaning "have to be below 0c just to be liquid") a rupture in the tanks will turn the SB into an fuel/air explosive (FAE) as the fuel rapidly (and possibly explosively) turns to vapor, one of the few weapons that can rival a nuke for destructive power.


FAEs' performance is exaggerated. They make a nice, wide-area bang, but they aren't close to nukes.

Further, you only need to worry about an explosion if the SB is fueled with kerosene and LOX. A SB fueled with hydrogen and oxygen will just generate a large, intense conflagration.

In either case, plentiful historical examples of exploding cryogenic rockets shows the explosions do not follow a FAE pattern. The fuel doesn't have a chance to vaporize and disperse before it's consumed in the explosion.

QUOTE
Besids, in SR (since SR 1 or 2, NAGRL) even normal long range passenger airplains are hypersonic making Mach 3 or 5 or something. They do the Seattle-Tokio in under 2 hours, semibalistics & suborbitals get you there in under an hour!


As I recall, HSCTs are mach 2-3, which puts them only halfway to hypersonic speeds (mach 5+).
MK Ultra
So why are they called HyperSonicCivilianTransporters than? I may look it up.

The crash pics are realy impressive, though the devastation described in BitB & NS was more dramatic if I remember correctly (then again, maybe they hit an industrial chemical plant or something, instead of a hotel).
Darkness
[Edit]: Ignore me, just a misposting[/edit]
Gothic Rose
The PROPER formula for figuring out how big the Explosion of the Semi-Ballistic impacting into the airport would be is: D+I-R+P(A)= EX, where D equals Your Desired Size, plus your Imagined Scene, minus your desire for Reality, plus your Players Desires, Multiplied by the Sheer Awesomeness of the Scene - this equals the size of the Explosion.

Seriously. make it as big as you think would be awesomely badass, and then maybe make it a little bigger to really kick home the message of: "Oh...Shit!"

Cray74
QUOTE (MK Ultra)
So why are they called HyperSonicCivilianTransporters than? I may look it up.

HSCT = High Speed Civilian Transports, not Hyper Sonic CT. wink.gif
bclements
QUOTE (Gothic Rose)
The PROPER formula for figuring out how big the Explosion of the Semi-Ballistic impacting into the airport would be is: D+I-R+P(A)= EX, where D equals Your Desired Size, plus your Imagined Scene, minus your desire for Reality, plus your Players Desires, Multiplied by the Sheer Awesomeness of the Scene - this equals the size of the Explosion.


Sig worthy biggrin.gif
SEAL Intel
QUOTE (kigmatzomat)
The easiest way to get the biggest boom for the buck is to have the SB detonate on the launch pad. If the SB is using cryogenic fuels (meaning "have to be below 0c just to be liquid") a rupture in the tanks will turn the SB into an fuel/air explosive (FAE) as the fuel rapidly (and possibly explosively) turns to vapor, one of the few weapons that can rival a nuke for destructive power.

QUOTE
The easiest way to get the biggest boom for the buck is to have the SB detonate on the launch pad.  If the SB is using cryogenic fuels (meaning "have to be below 0c just to be liquid") a rupture in the tanks will turn the SB into an fuel/air explosive (FAE) as the fuel rapidly (and possibly explosively) turns to vapor, one of the few weapons that can rival a nuke for destructive power. 


Actually, FAE is rather complicated and anything that large would not be possible for a FAE type device.

As far as the explosive force, if you look at a BLU-82 (Daisy Cutter) or a GBU-43 (MOAB) they are very impressive. You can hear BLU-82 from a couple of miles away as I learned in Afghanistan. Still those are no where a nuclear explosion but then you only want to take out the airport or something along those lines and not the entire city so it should be sufficient.
LaughingTiger
QUOTE (Gothic Rose)
The PROPER formula for figuring out how big the Explosion of the Semi-Ballistic impacting into the airport would be is: D+I-R+P(A)= EX, where D equals Your Desired Size, plus your Imagined Scene, minus your desire for Reality, plus your Players Desires, Multiplied by the Sheer Awesomeness of the Scene - this equals the size of the Explosion.

That's really my favorite answer.

As for the plane blowing up on take off, the point of the scene is to get across the true horror of a matrix crash. The plane losses all Matrix connection as it descends, goes out of control and slams into the ground.

My original plan is to have the players driving past Lambert "the Mac" as the incident happens, then having to negotiate the twisted sprawl of shorn metal and twisted vehicles as a member they have been rushing to the hospital lays dying in the back seat.. and they don't even know if the hospital will be open.


I think I can do what I want with the explosion and have some fun

Taki
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jan 8 2006, 11:40 AM)
QUOTE (Taki @ Jan 8 2006, 06:53 AM)
You guys really think a force 4 spirit could accelerate with the movement power a target of a 747 size  ???  eek.gif ??? 
Is this a joke ?
I don't think it works in the SR world. (otherwise there should seriously have been such example in the sr4 book presentation of magic). 
the power movement works on a SUBJECT - which is a living thing (to my mind), and this seems quite evident when you compare with other power scale (such as concealment).

yes. yes, as a matter of fact i do think it would work.

in point of fact, it worked in SR3, too, in theory.

of course, in SR3, i believe the spirit had to roll it's force against a TN equal to the vehicle's body (and possibly + armor, can't remember fully), so good luck getting any successes with a force 4 spirit against a TN that's probably up around 15+

plus i think you had to get at least 2 successes for it to do anything at all, not sure though...

in SR4, however, this is definitely possible, indeed *easy*

there is no test involved. you just apply the spirit's force (actually it's magic, which is equal to it's force) to the movement speed of the subject, either multiplying or dividing (depending on if you want faster or slower, obviously).

and you will notice that it is a physical power; that is, it can affect objects too.

Where do you get that from ???
A subject could be an object, a person, a animal ...

A building is not a subject, nor is a big boat with a lot of people on board, neither a 747.
When a rule is missing, the GM should use 20ct worth of logic.

No ! a force 4 spirit (neither a force 6 or 8 or even 12) is NOT able to boost a 1000 tones object by a speed of mach 3.

Or your own SR world is really ... funny ... and very different from what is generally described !
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Taki)
A subject could be an object, a person, a animal ...

Hrm... and what exactly is a 747 if not an object? wink.gif
Taki
said like that ?
747 = 1 object = 1 subject (even if it is a far bigger subject than what a spirit can accelerate).
IN the 747 : passanger n1 = one personne = one subject
passanger n2 = one personne = one subject and so on ...
So the whole would count for a lot of subjects !!!

Either you do use stricly the rules (only one subject), either you interprate them, and the GM could consider what a spirit can target using the power movement, depending on its force.

Just think why all the very costy hudge vehicles (eg: plane carrier, submarines) have never been said to be ALWAYS accelarated by a poor force 3 spirit (no cost - or 0.00001% of the maintenance to have 2 mage at each time who keep the spirit) ....

Just because they are not.

Any GM can change that. But it surely induice a lot of change in the SR world.
Adarael
Taken to the utmost, 1 Earth = 1 object = 1 subject.

Suffice to say, use the in-game logic: is movement generally described as being used on aircraft? Do you wish to use it on aircraft? Do you wish to accept the increase in speed worldwide this will cause?

Similarly, assuming a sports car can do 120-150 mph with a rigging driver, and a mage can summon a force 5 spirit... are you willing to accept, as a GM or a player, a Shadowrun world in which criminals (and police officers) have vehicles which can break the sound barrier on the surface of a street and never, ever crash, due to the guard power.

As an easy rule of thumb, my rule for SR4 is the maximum weight a spirit can affect with powers is the force of the spirit x 100 kg. That leaves plenty of leeway for low-force personal movement increases, but sorta realistically caps out for anything above motorcycle or sports car.

But I liked SR3's accelleration-based rules better.
SEAL Intel
QUOTE (Taki @ Jan 8 2006, 05:47 PM)
said like that ?
747 = 1 object = 1 subject (even if it is a far bigger subject than what a spirit can accelerate).
IN the 747 : passanger n1 = one personne = one subject
passanger n2 = one personne = one subject and so on ...
So the whole would count for a lot of subjects !!!

By that logic, couldn't you be a GM D*ck and say yes the can use the power on you but your shirt is another object, you pants are another object, your left shoe is another object etc.

It would be easier to say that the spirit will not comply with an action that will damage its element and breaking the sound barrier would in fact be ruled by the spirit as just such a thing. In that case the spirit will move the object at a just under sonic speed. Not much of an improvement to keep the sense of balance without leading to problems of when is a subject a subject or simply a collection of smaller subject.

Adarael's post actually has a much better house rule. I like that one.
Adarael
I just thought of a new one. I'm not sure what I think of it yet.

Use movement on a projectile for more damage.

Ouch.

Edit: Never mind, I just realized that at the speeds such a projectile was moving, the materialized spirit couldn't POSSIBLY keep it in line of sight for longer than a microsecond, and therefore it's a pretty worthless application.
SEAL Intel
If the projectile is already punching through the target, I don't see the extra velocity helping. It will simply go through faster.

Now have the Troll throw a cinder block and have that accelerated by 4 and you are on to something.
FrankTrollman
The SR3 rules ended up doing the same thing, they just took a while to "ramp up." The spirit rolled its Essence every round against a TN of half the vehicles body, with successes each round being multiplied by the vehicle's acceleration and added to the vehicle's speed - the maximum modifier was still max speed x Essence. This is very similar to just multiplying the speed by Force.

Let's consider a Force 3 Spirit using Movement on an Ares Dragon (a massive transport helicopter - Body 7). On average, the spirit gets 2 hits each round (rolling 3 dice against a TN of 3), so the vehicle accelerates at 2 times its Acceleration in addition to its acceleration each round (see SR3, p. 265). So each round, it moves 10 meters/turn faster for its normal acceleration, and 20 meters/turn faster for the movement. In SR4, we now use the completely different setup where the spirit moves 30 meters/turn faster (acceleration x Force). Oh horrors!

Seriously, the SR3 rules were complicated, and quite different if you were using them to accelerate a vehicle that was already moving at maximum speed, but they had the same basic effect when used on a vehicle from the beginning. It's always worked this way, just sometimes the rules have been written in a fashion that was really confusing.

-Frank
Gothic Rose
QUOTE (LaughingTiger)
QUOTE (Gothic Rose @ Jan 8 2006, 01:51 PM)
The PROPER formula for figuring out how big the Explosion of the Semi-Ballistic impacting into the airport would be is:  D+I-R+P(A)= EX, where D equals Your Desired Size, plus your Imagined Scene, minus your desire for Reality, plus your Players Desires, Multiplied by the Sheer Awesomeness of the Scene - this equals the size of the Explosion.

That's really my favorite answer.

As for the plane blowing up on take off, the point of the scene is to get across the true horror of a matrix crash. The plane losses all Matrix connection as it descends, goes out of control and slams into the ground.

My original plan is to have the players driving past Lambert "the Mac" as the incident happens, then having to negotiate the twisted sprawl of shorn metal and twisted vehicles as a member they have been rushing to the hospital lays dying in the back seat.. and they don't even know if the hospital will be open.


I think I can do what I want with the explosion and have some fun

Then that is the scene that you should do. Seriously. NEVER LET MECHANICS GET IN THE WAY OF THE STORY YOU WANT TO TELL. It's your game, do what you want with it. The scene sounds awesome, and perfectly reasonable - besides, I doubt your group will CARE whether or not a SemiBallistic would cause X amount of destruction or Y amount of destruction.

@ bclements: Heh. Thanks nyahnyah.gif
PlatonicPimp
I've always figured that the movement power didn't actually increase the speed of the thing in question so much as made the distance it traveled smaller.

For one, this is magic, not physics. Even for hermetics thinking of it too much like physics can cause problems. The Idea of the movement power (In my mind) is to decrese travel times, not to increase velocity. So you get there faster. Anyone who observes you sees you going at your non-increased speed, even you. You just miss all the uninteresting parts of the trip. You kinda "Skip" that space.

For example, you are speeding down a dark, twisting road in the mountains. There are a few incredible views, and lots of essentially similar landscape. You skip over most of that landscape, catch the views, and when you hit a deer (b/c you didn't use the guard power) you hit it at your normal velocity.

Or, you are speeding away from the cops, only 1 block ahead of the lead car. You turn a corner and are briefly out of sight. When the cops turn the corner you are 10 blocks ahead of them.

Or, You are a plane. A mage uses movement on you (magic is symbolic. If the thing in question is thought of as a distinct object, you can affect it). You take off as normal, with no increased speed. You arrive at your destination 4 times faster than you normally would, but come in with no increase of velocity. The plane has used the normal amount of feul for the trip, it just made it to the end sooner.

And yes, I do suppose you could try to target the earth with this power. The only effect i could see is changing the season as you increase the speed at which she orbits the sun, or maybe increasing her rotation to brign day sooner (Which would free a spirit sooner as well.) First, you'd have to be able to see the earth as an object, which probably requires you to be in orbit. otherwise you don't see the earth, you see the ground. Second, You'd have to overcome her spell resistance. What, you thought the earth was an inanimate object? Fool. She's chucking more dice at resisting that spell than they have in your local game store.
Rotbart van Dainig
The rules are quite clear that the power increases velocity, though. wink.gif
Vertaxis666
F=mv^2

What is the mass?
What is the angle of entry?
What is the angle of impact?
What is the terminal velocity?

As a semi-ballistic is hollow, when it hits it's airframe will crush and disintegrate on impact. It'll make a crater, but it won't do as much damage as a nuke or Thor shot. It'll likely spread a lot of debris around.
SEAL Intel
QUOTE (Vertaxis666)
F=mv^2

What is the mass?
What is the angle of entry?
What is the angle of impact?
What is the terminal velocity?

As a semi-ballistic is hollow, when it hits it's airframe will crush and disintegrate on impact. It'll make a crater, but it won't do as much damage as a nuke or Thor shot. It'll likely spread a lot of debris around.

One thing about BLU-82s and MOABs is that they explode several feet above the ground because if not most of the energy goes into the ground and strait up. FYI

The thing I would do is make the damage I want happen. If it is because of secondary explosions from the fueled planes waiting for take off, okay. If it is because a gas line ruptured and exploded, that is fine too. Maybe a bunch of awakened creatures died and there was some serious mojo from that. I don't see the initial damage from the crash being that bad if it is hitting the landing platform. Just like plane crashes from running off the runway will kill the passengers but it will not destroy the city. But a plane crash into a building can be bad depending on the formula you posted.
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