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MK Ultra
QUOTE (Azralon @ Jan 10 2006, 12:00 PM)
...
as an SR4 design edict was to use Edge as a balancing factor for those people who didn't want to go implant-crazy or ride the magic train.


When the first anouncement on Edge was out, it remindet me of Ghost in the Shell. The scene when the former Cop (Togusa, not Ishikawa as I falsely recalled) askes the Cybermajor (Kusanagi) why she requested him for her team. Very shortened, her answer was "overspecialize, and you breed in weekness". She sayed that all of her Team being cybered up to the scalp made them predictable, so she mixed in an allmost uncybered police man.

Since the first anouncement, it got struck with the idea, that uncybered mundanes should be able to have higher Edge then cybered and moyoed chars. While this is somehow the case with Magic, since it eats up much Karma, there is nothing that hinders a chunk of metal from having max. Edge.

I have to ad, that my interpretation of Edge (as well as Karma Pool in previous editions) is, that it is more experiance and training than luck and spiritsī blessing.

So Iīm serioucly toying with the idea to lower the Edge cap in relation to gaining more moyo, resonance or implants.

My current working model is, to lower the Edge cap by:
Magic/2
Resonance/2
Essenceloss*/4
*before adjusting it due to customization and before deviding the lower loss from cyber/bio by 2.

This should not lower the current Edge-Attribute, as long as it isnīt higher then the new cap. Otherwise it would be a bit too hard.

I think this is fair and it reflects, that people who have some very defined and powerfull means, tend to be less versatile in there tactics and less on thair toes. When you can handel allmost everything you encounter with your moyo, res or implants, you will slowly start being less "on Edge", becaus you donīt need to, mostly. On the other hand, if you are a nonimplanted mundane, youīd better have a damn high Edge and be attentive bordering to paranoia, for this one moment, when your boosted friends canīt save your ass.

So, what do you think about this?

Edit: Sorry azralon, I couldnīt find the original site, were I read wat you commented and I was too lazy, too write up a new text and search out my copy of GitS to quote the compleat conversation. I may eventually redeam myselfe..
Azralon
QUOTE (MK Ultra @ Jan 11 2006, 06:51 PM)
Edit: Sorry azralon, I couldnīt find the original site, were I read wat you commented and I was too lazy, too write up a new text and search out my copy of GitS to quote the compleat conversation. I may eventually redeam myselfe..

Heathen! Miscreant!
MK Ultra
Well DEUS may eraze my SINns. The psychotropic programming is strong but the mind is weak. But I promis, Iīll post the full conversation eventually! Allso, I made some cosmetic modifications to my original post, doesnīt that count for some MP of my Soul to be saved?

Edit: Does that mean, you wont participate in this anymore frown.gif
PlatonicPimp
I like it. Though I'd change your formulae a bit, mostly because Essence loss is so difficult to calculate via your system there.

So how's this:
Lower the edge cap by 2 for having a magic attribute at all.
Same with Resonance.
Lower it by essence loss, round down. Therefore if you just have a datajack no problem.
MK Ultra
Yea, Your probably right about the cyber. I just wanted to keep the logic, cuz more implants, that are better integrated in your system, shouldnīt make you less eliant on them. But I realize, that this may be a bit to complicated.

For the Magic and Resonance its the same, I wanted ubermages and matrixmasters to be less on edge than little sprite kidies and adepts that have only astral perception.
Moon-Hawk
As I said when this was brought up in the other thread, I think it's a really neat idea.

I agree that you should probably just use essence in your formula instead of your previous (weird) formula. If you need to rationalize it, figure it has something to do with gear being more smoothly integrated into their system and throwing off their edge less.

Street Sams are looking at less than six points of essence loss, ever, absolute maximum. What about the Mages and Technomancers? Are you subtracting based on the initiated/submerged stat, or just the base? I could see arguments either way.
On the one hand, you're trying to reduce edge based on other abilities, but this allows them to reduce their edge max to zero (theoretically) and that's not fun. I think you should only base the loss on the base stat, and initiation and submersion are free. Rationalize it as, base stats are raw inborn power, which throws off your edge, but initiation is learning to increase your natural ability and work with it more effectively, so no edge penalty.
Thoughts?
MK Ultra
Zeroing Edge was a problem I was allso worrying about. But Iīm thinking of a compromize.

What about Edge cap
-1 for Magic and Resonance 1 to 3
-2 for Magic and Resonance 4 to 6
-3 for Magic and Resonance 7+
-Essence loss / 2
Moon-Hawk
I like it.
Consider a slight buffer for those with negligible abilities:
0 for Magic and Resonance 1
-1 for Magic and Resonance 2 to 4
-2 for Magic and Resonance 5 to 7
-3 for Magic and Resonance 8+
-Essence loss / 2 (round loss down, so the datajack is free)
Space Ghost
i like the free datajack idea. Togusa (the ex-cop) had a little headware, so it fits with GitS too. Ishikawa is the uber-hacker guy, though it shows more in the comic and the tv show than the original movie.
Lagomorph
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
I like it.
Consider a slight buffer for those with negligible abilities:
0 for Magic and Resonance 1
-1 for Magic and Resonance 2 to 4
-2 for Magic and Resonance 5 to 7
-3 for Magic and Resonance 8+
-Essence loss / 2 (round loss down, so the datajack is free)

it seems logical to lump essence spent into the same plan as magic and resonance. It would simplify things quite a bit.

so something like:
0 for Magic, Essence Spent and Resonance 1
-1 for Magic, Essence Spent and Resonance 2 to 4
-2 for Magic, Essence Spent and Resonance 5 to 7
-3 for Magic, Essence Spent and Resonance 8+



One problem that could occur is mages with cyber, if you pick up 6 Magic and spend 2 on cyber wares, you'd have a -3 penalty..
MK Ultra
Ah, thanks Ghost, will edit that wink.gif .

I allso think the Essence loss should be rounded down for this purpose, so you could have allmost 2 points worth of implants without reducing the Edge cap.

Edit: @ Lagomorph
I intended awakened with implants to reduce the edgecap twice wink.gif Not much Edge for those Aleph Fraggers biggrin.gif
Lagomorph
QUOTE (MK Ultra)
Edit: @ Lagomorph
I intended awakened with implants to reduce the edgecap twice wink.gif Not much Edge for those Aleph Fraggers biggrin.gif

Roger that biggrin.gif
Moon-Hawk
So someone totally cybered to the gills is losing 2 off their max edge. Does that seem in-line with what you were aiming for, or are they getting off light, having a smaller maximum penalty than the mages and technos?
PlatonicPimp
If someone loses edge, they will lose magic too, and thus reduce the amount of edge they lose from magic.
Chandon
The uncybered mundane is already a weak archetype, and your houserule suggestion won't really change that. What it will do is majorly nerf cybergoons out of medium-term character advancement.

Cybergoons already have trouble finding effective things to do with karma, and preventing them from raising their edge attribute will just take away one of their best paths of advancement.
Gothic Rose
Indeed.

Instead of doing this, why not -increase- the cap for Unaugmented or Nonawakened characters?

Or, allow total mundanes to do other things with Edge.
Hasaku
Or reward the roleplay concious player for his decision not to optimize. Whoah, crazy, I know!

edit: Because I luv ya...

"If we all reacted the same way, we'd be predictable, and there's always more than one way to view a situation. What's true for the group is also true for the individual. It's simple: Overspecialize, and you breed in weakness. It's slow death."
MK Ultra
Oh Hazaku, you are so fantastic! DEUS shell reward you for this, you are sure to be JackBNimbeled! notworthy.gif

@Gothig Rose and Chandon
Yea, I was thinking about raising the Edge cap after CharGen to its augmented maximum, since you canīt boost it anyway (or can you?)!
Allso, the maximum penalty for the Cyborgs is at least 1 less then that for submerged TMs and initiates with R/M above 6

@Platonic Pimp
I canīt quiet catch what you are meaning frown.gif
Moon-Hawk
I was wondering about that. Edge has an augmented maximum anywhere from 9 to 12 (if you're human with exceptional attribute), even though there is nothing that can augment edge, right? Weird.
Well, maybe not. Magic and Resonance are also attributes, and they don't have an augmented maximum, right?

Ugh. I understand the sentiment about not nerfing character types. I could see raising the edge cap for uncybered mundanes, but one way or another I think it'd be nice if there was SOME way to make an uncybered mundane without being laughed away from the gaming table. I don't expect for uncybered mundanes to compete with sams or mages, or to be as good, but it'd be nice if they could keep up a little.
Gothic Rose
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)


Ugh. I understand the sentiment about not nerfing character types. I could see raising the edge cap for uncybered mundanes, but one way or another I think it'd be nice if there was SOME way to make an uncybered mundane without being laughed away from the gaming table. I don't expect for uncybered mundanes to compete with sams or mages, or to be as good, but it'd be nice if they could keep up a little.

Whereas, I am of the opinion that an uncybered mundane should suck.

If everyone rocks out of the box, why would you bother augmenting yourself? Why depattern yourself with chunks of plastic and metal if you can be just as good without them?

Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Gothic Rose)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jan 12 2006, 10:14 AM)


Ugh.  I understand the sentiment about not nerfing character types.  I could see raising the edge cap for uncybered mundanes, but one way or another I think it'd be nice if there was SOME way to make an uncybered mundane without being laughed away from the gaming table.  I don't expect for uncybered mundanes to compete with sams or mages, or to be as good, but it'd be nice if they could keep up a little.

Whereas, I am of the opinion that an uncybered mundane should suck.

If everyone rocks out of the box, why would you bother augmenting yourself? Why depattern yourself with chunks of plastic and metal if you can be just as good without them?

If you're going to quote me, at least read my quote.
To requote myself:
QUOTE
I don't expect for uncybered mundanes to compete with sams or mages, or to be as good,

An uncybered mundane should not, repeat NOT be as good as a sam or a magician. All I'm saying is I want them to be good enough to be playable. Uncybered mundanes are, IMO, not realistically playable as they are.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
All I'm saying is I want them to be good enough to be playable. Uncybered mundanes are, IMO, not realistically playable as they are.

Why?
They have more points to spend on edge and skills.
Moon-Hawk
Is that enough, do you think? Really? They might have more edge. They certainly will have more points to throw around. In the long run they won't have more edge than anyone else, of course. They'll have worse attributes, having spent the same 50% as everyone else, but without any means to increase them beyond that.
They'll have more diverse skills, but they won't be able to compete with anyone else in their forte. They have the same skill caps as anyone else, without modifiers.
I just don't see spending the extra BP on skills as really helping anything.
Now, if an uncybered mundane were able to put those extra points into attributes, maybe you'd have something.
I don't know, maybe they are realistically playable, I just don't see it.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Is that enough, do you think?

Sure.
mintcar
Uncybered characters do not have to stay that way. They have a huge advangage in more potential and choices in their development.
Kerberos
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jan 12 2006, 07:44 PM)
All I'm saying is I want them to be good enough to be playable.  Uncybered mundanes are, IMO, not realistically playable as they are.

Why?
They have more points to spend on edge and skills.

Do they? A cybered character can release 20 Bp by lowering Logic, strengths, reaction or agility by two and buy those two points back with cyber/bioware for 3-4 points or 6-8 if you want alpha-ware. That gives the cybered character more points for skill and edge.
TheHappyAnarchist
I don't know. I just made a character with Edge 8 (Lucky Human points waste) called Average Joe.

I won't get in to backstory, but as you can imagine, Average Joe has average stats, other than edge.

That means, most time, he will be rolling from 5-7 dice for a test. Much like many of the NPCs.

However, 8 times a session he will be able to pull the bacon out of the fire. He is a generalist, but when you can get 14 exploding dice to throw at an important task, it is helpful.

Admittably, twinked sams and physads regularly get 15-18 dice, and they can spend one of their 1-3 edge to reroll them, but that is only in their specialty, whereas, Joe can get 14 dice in demolitions to set that perfect bomb, or just after getting frustrated by a maglock, punch it and unlock it in a turn.

Admittably, he has a little cyber, wired 1, some eyes and ears. A few little things here and there. But he is certainly playable. Maybe not an ubertwink and may be overshadowed by cyberjim and hacker jane, but there will be times when he will overshadow them as well.

As a note, I am strongly considering removing the option of the Edge reroll. It basically allows you to have a really twinked character with 1 or 2 Edge get more benefit than someone who has more Edge. The actual size of the stat is not as important. The fact that you can use a stat rated at 1 to have such a swing on the game is too much for me.
Azralon
I haven't had the chance yet, but I intend on eventually throwing down a highly-skilled uber-Lucky human and using crazy amounts of Edge.

I've already got him on paper and he honestly doesn't look all that impressive from a sheer numerical standpoint. But hey, he gets to be a god 7 times per game session.

EDIT: Aw, Happy spent a point to go first in the Initiative order.
Kerberos
QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist)
I don't know. I just made a character with Edge 8 (Lucky Human points waste) called Average Joe.

I won't get in to backstory, but as you can imagine, Average Joe has average stats, other than edge.

That means, most time, he will be rolling from 5-7 dice for a test. Much like many of the NPCs.

However, 8 times a session he will be able to pull the bacon out of the fire. He is a generalist, but when you can get 14 exploding dice to throw at an important task, it is helpful.

Admittably, twinked sams and physads regularly get 15-18 dice, and they can spend one of their 1-3 edge to reroll them, but that is only in their specialty, whereas, Joe can get 14 dice in demolitions to set that perfect bomb, or just after getting frustrated by a maglock, punch it and unlock it in a turn.

Admittably, he has a little cyber, wired 1, some eyes and ears. A few little things here and there. But he is certainly playable. Maybe not an ubertwink and may be overshadowed by cyberjim and hacker jane, but there will be times when he will overshadow them as well.

As a note, I am strongly considering removing the option of the Edge reroll. It basically allows you to have a really twinked character with 1 or 2 Edge get more benefit than someone who has more Edge. The actual size of the stat is not as important. The fact that you can use a stat rated at 1 to have such a swing on the game is too much for me.

You're assuming that the samurai has 1-3 edge, that's not necessarily so, the Samurai I'm planning to play if or when our campaign finally gets going has 6 edge. Hell I could even make a samurai that had 8 edge, I'd just have to lower my strength and logic to 1 and use cyber to get them back to 3. Such a character would be superior to average Joe in every case but the very rare ones where you use unaugmented attributes.
TheHappyAnarchist
That is true. You could take an often not used attribute, like say Charisma (you have a face right?) or maybe Logic or Intuition or even Willpower (how often are you hit by spells, is it less than 6 times a game?) and lower it a good deal and add the same amount to Edge. You would be able to roll about the same on that attribute and potentially double other ones. Scary.
Moon-Hawk
So you've got a crappy Charisma. What happens when you need to roll it? As the street sam, this happens maybe once a session? You spend edge! And do even better than you would've before, since you had a little more Charisma, but not the spare edge to spend on it.
Chandon
QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist)
That is true. You could take an often not used attribute, like say Charisma (you have a face right?) or maybe Logic or Intuition or even Willpower (how often are you hit by spells, is it less than 6 times a game?) and lower it a good deal and add the same amount to Edge. You would be able to roll about the same on that attribute and potentially double other ones. Scary.

The funny thing is that you win free karma when you do this.
PlatonicPimp
What I was getting at is this:

Mage has Magic of 6. Assuming your edge cap goes down by 1 per 2 points of magic, you lose 3 from max edge.

Now he gets 2 essence worth of cyber. his magic ir reduced to 4. Assuming you lose 1 point of edge for 2 essence, the character remains with 3 off his max edge.

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