From Bull's introduction to SR4:

well, given the abilities of drugs in SR4 (jazz and nitro), a high will power, some addictions and some combat drugs would make him a dangerous opponent. Make a conversion for the SR3 auto injector, and he could cause some damage.

edit:
oh yeah, unless you're going to use that 8th point of edge, get rid of lucky. Lucky is 20 plus the stat from 6 to 7 is 10 making 30, where if you had just gone from 6 to 7 with no lucky, it would only cost 25 points.

From what I've seen, mundanes are definitely more viable out of the box in SR4, but only because they have more stats to pump their build points into, Edge being one of them.

That being said, they're still outclassed in the long run by the sammies and spellslingers.

Mundes are definitely a viable choise because they have a lot more points to spend on skills. Remember, the new “6” in skill rating is 4 and the average professional have skills of 3.

That’s quite a lot of skills, especially if you go for specialisation ( 1/3 ) will give them several skills in different professions, especially skills like Armourer (Explosives) 1(3) and Demolitions (Improvised) 1(3) will get you a demolitions expert.

What I’d like to know is how many percentage of the industrial world that are wholly non-cybered, I’d believe that even the majority of magicians/adepts might have one point of essence removed for those things that makes things easier.

I seriously don’t think there are anyone in the larger cities who are non-cybered (except for the die-hard luddite mages/shamans). Even small things like image links, datajacks and the like are so easily obtainable – and then you add the implant procedure that is probably taken care of by programmed nanites so no more cracking open the skull to install clunky pieces of metal, it’s mostly injected I’d believe.

Still, if you go for Dice counting then mundanes are shafted on the individual skills, and initiative. Mundane Hackers with no cyber are a perfect viable choice though.

I think they are very viable, although the stats may not directly respect this. The book is right when it says edge is a very powerfull asset. 5 or more dice (potentialy open ended) that you can apply to any test 5 or more times a run is VERY powerfull. Cyber and Magic can get you more dice in general, but on those occasions when you use that extreme edge you are as good or better than the best of them. And your edge allows you to attempt tasks that are plain impossible for other characters, no matter how good they are by taking a long shot and rolling just your edge. Obviously having more dice for these tests is a good thing.

Being uncybered and mundane has some of it's own advantages. You can get into places your cyber heavy friends can't, and you don't attract any special notice on the astral plane either. Being unobtrusive certianly has it's advantages in Shadowrun. They aren't as easily quantifiable, but they are definetly signifigant.

I would agree with some others that putting the full six points into edge is sub-optimal (5 is a better number), but never the less, unlike in previous editions, you can play a mudane and not be totaly outclassed by your opponents. So you can play that kamakazii addicted ork detective to your hearts content, and not worry about holding back the team.

An uncybered mundane is viable in SR3 and is viable in SR4, it just isn't viable according to standard playing styles.

When I stated Scout for SR3 I noticed something important. She was an uncybered mundane with a few resources. She way an ork and she didn't need high physical stats, so her STR and BOD bonuses took care of her needs there. She was able to max out her mental stats without much trouble and she had plenty left over for skills.

It is skills where she really shone. She could do just about anything, including a little combat. In a real firefight the sammies and adepts with F her up. The adepts would overwhealm her with skill while the sammies would do the same with speed. That wasn't the point. She isn't a fighter, she is a con artist and a demolitionist. By the time anyone notices that there is something wrong about her all she has to do is push a plunger and they all go up.

She could sneak, not as good as a stealth adept but good enough. She could con, not as good as a Social Adept but good enough. She could pick locks. She could rewire electronics. She could make high explosives out of household chemicals and knew exactly where to put them. If she had surprise she could do a pretty good job of blowing someone away with a shotgun, too. In short, so long as she avoided an actual straight-up firefight she could do everything except deck.


SR4 is a bit harder on such characters but the concept is still viable. The trick is to make someone who will be able to avoid combat consistantly and give that character a wide variety of invaluable skills. With certain skills, it is even easier in SR4 although it is more difficult with others.

The thing with the SR4 system is the TN of 5. Cyber's real power in SR3 was the alteration of the TN. The best cyber would reduce your TN, and thus double or triple your successes. Now you get 1 to 3 (on average) more dice from Cyberware in 4th edition, which is about 1 more success than you'd get without the cyberware.

So, personally, I find that a lack of cyberware is actually very doable. Now, instead, spend the points on Chameleon suits, external comm-link, glasses/contactlenses, and above all, virtues. Starting with a 6 Karma Pool (the best SR3 to SR4 translation for edge) and enough non-cyber boosters (Seriously, don't even need SmartLinks installed, just a pair of glasses which can include an Image Link), and edges, and you're doing just as good as the cyber guy.

More importantly though, that itty bitty edge the cyber gets over the mundane, is insta-countered the moment you get injured and the mage casts heal on you. Smaller threshold on healing is paramount. You may not throw quite as many dice (but you'll be close), but you make up for it easily in other areas besides Edge (which is a keen area by itself)

Sphynx

Maybe this contributes to your discussion somehow.

and how is that diffrent from SR3-? i seems to recall threads where people where talking of groups made purely from magicans and adepts.

magic rules all i the long run, no questions asked. why? the potential for unlimited growth...

and never forget that while guns and cyber can be picked up on sensors, only a spirit or a astraly active mage may spot your ability for powerballs and killing hands.

1% of the worlds population is magicaly active? yea right. if you go by the avarage number of people playing a magicaly active char i would say closer to 90%
(but one cant realy calculate it that way as people are not all playing in the same game. more like they all exist in paralell realitys)

btw, i must say that hyzmarca's scout sounds a bit like macgyver without the pasifist flaw

oh, and lets not forget that the all-important smartlink have now been moved off cyber. grab a simlink for your comlink and a skinlink. presto, all the bells of smartlink with none of the essence loss.

For me SR4 is more viable for uncybered mundane because if cyber bonus are significative, it doesn't mean that an uncybered character can't do anything.

Edge was initially an attribute to balance character without cyber but in fact cyberware are cheap and it's possible to spend only few BP to get some great cyber additionally to edge. (okay if you want cultured bioware then BP is quickly spent - but there are some great and cheap implant available). However, if cyber give great bonus and can give a real advantage, it's no more must have to survive. A cyber-runner can be killed as a non cybered character and the opposite is also true : a non-cybered character can be useful even if he have a lower pool. After this consideration, a non-cybered character have some BP to spend to get more skills or contact...

And for me the most important in anyway a non cybered character can be interesting to play, even if he doesn't get 7 or 8 on edge. (I dislike character optimized for a pseudo credibility, a magician with 5-6 in magic and willpower is not my trip, I prefer a magician with attribute at 3-4 : he is not a supermagician, just a magician among others. Because the world is not composed by magician with 6 in willpo, troll with 10 in body and strenght (if not more with exceptional attribute), uncybered human with 7 in edge and so on. And this is a thing I like in SR4 : if you want a 7 agility and 7 pistol character, you can but this legendary skills have a cost and it's totally normal to have a poor character among this exceptional ability to use pistols. I think it's important to consider maximum as maximum not as standard in fact. Mmh back to the topic, following what you want to play, it's totally possible and viable to play non cybered character even if he haven't the max in edge or in other skills or attribute. (after it depend of the players around the table too)

- Daegann -

Magic has the most potential. Implants offer the quickest power escalation. Unaugmented mundanes, however, can offer the best build efficiency.

If you spend all of your build points on attributes, skills, and Edge then you have less "waiting for karma" to do than anyone else. You have more skills at higher levels, for instance. Your Edge can be that much closer to capping.

Gear and money can potentially come quickly to the resourceful 'runner; an unaugmented mundane can devote his budget to buying implants after chargen. This effectively bypasses the Availability:12 limit and means you don't have to buy subpar items before the SOTA stuff becomes potentially available. For example, you don't have to throw away money on standard Wired:2 on the way to getting beta Wired:3. You can just save up and buy the good stuff all at once.

I won't argue that the road might be rough on the way up there. Adepts will outclass you in their chosen field, and vatjobs will be more consistently effective than you in most areas. However, all you need is time and money and you'll blow past the guy who dropped 250k on implants in chargen.

Also, I should note, that you don't need to burn a single bit of Essence to be a kickass hacker or rigger. Heck, if you've got mad skills in those areas then all you need to do is mug a few of those guys for their gear and suddenly you're above the curve.

Yeah, that was one thing I was asking myself too, on the cybered route: whether it would be better to start out with none, and just get the good stuff later, instead of having to "upgrade" everything. I guess it depends on the cash rewards of the campaign. If the runners are stuck with dinky runs to start out, it might not be worth the wait, but if they make decent money (which they should, to be honest, considering their skill sets), then starting out with no cyber is a decent option.

Agreed, Glyph. If you know you're looking at a low-cash campaign anyway then magicians, adepts, and technomancers are probably going to be your best bets.

Reminds me of a fairly recent D&D campaign we had. The GM said "Loot will be somewhat rare in this gameworld." I've never seen so many PC monks, sorcerers, and people with Vow of Poverty.

There's a 200 points cap for stats though, so the sam and mundane can (but don't nessecary need to) be on the same level at chargen. But i agree with spending more points for skills - that's the field an uncybered guy can shine.

Shadowrun 4 is much more survivable when a single guy shoots you. The days of Power Level 20 Deadly Wounds being handed out on a regular basis are over. But it is also less practical to wade through multiple opponents with small arms. The days when a heavily armored character could expect to bounce dozens of light pistol shots without a scratch are likewise over. The combat field has been levelled substantially, and the the end result is that getting caught is really really bad.

Hiding in plain sight is a big part of SR4. One of the primary abilities of the uncybered mundane is that he actually doesn't have any cyberware or magic to find - he really is an "ordinary citizen" from the standpoint of a lot of security measures that could potentially undermine a mission. Now personally, I find that the loss in subtlety one gets from putting in cybereyes and a synaptic accelerator is so minor that it is more than made up for by the increased capabilities (not the least of which is that you don't have security-grade goggles in your pocket - which can be tough to explain to arcology staff).

SR4 is less about how many combat modifiers you have, and more about how many alarms you set off. Being more like one of the six billion faceless metahumans populating the world is its own reward.

-Frank

Many of the sensory disadvantages of being uncybered can be countered by the use of gear like goggles with an image link, smartgun link, lowlight and/or thermographic vision, vision enhancements and vision magnification. The same can be said for sound enhancements as well. These enhancements can always be purchased and put into a helmet that gives you [+1/+2] if you're willing to walk around with a helmet on.

The only mechanical problem I can see a person having is "only" having one initiative pass like most of the goons you'll be facing. This is not entirely bad, but one tends to have more points in Edge, so you're more likely to go first and if not, you can always use a point for another pass or the ability to say to the Wired Reflex monkey, "I don't care if you got nine hits on your initiative, I'm going first!"

With Skinlinks you can be a Hacker. You don't need any cyberware as far as I can tell.

meh, 3 dice is pretty minor--consider that a maxed-out mundane can have up to 12 dice, base. 15 dice is nice, but it's not required for badass combat types, the way a smartlink was in SR3.

Kerberos, the question wasn't if you could kill people just as well with as without cyberware, the question was if it was viable to go without Cyberware and be a runner. The answer remains yes. I've never denied you can be better at certain things with cyber, even admitted it. But you can easily get enough dice to do a job without needing modifications.

BTW, buying a magical Quality later doesn't mean you weren't magical from birth, it just means you're starting to tap into it. Legally, you can 'buy' that magical Quality at the age of 40 if you want.

Sphynx

can you actually start with the quality and a magic rating of 0 and buy it up at a later date?

I echo Frank: Some qualities are chargen-only. I personally wish each of their entries were marked as such, but what can ya do.

From a build efficiency standpoint it is not ideal (yet quite legal) to make someone with Magic or Resonance of 1 and no other magical training nor abilities. If you do that, then you're back to waiting on the karma trickle.

Besides, this thread is about characters who specifically have no magical nor technomantic capacity.

I don't think anyone is arguing that mundanes are as good as enhanced runners. They aren't. That's pretty much the definition of enhanced.

What they're arguing is that mundanes are not so totally outclassed in combat that they're unplayable, and that the advantage of not spending points on ware and magic is you can plow those points into more Edge (which can really save your bacon) and skills to avoid overspecialization. That's apparently different from earlier editions, and is nice.

It makes sense that cyborgs built for combat and adepts are better at killing. That's why those roles exist in the game, and make sense in the game world. But that doesn't mean that playing a mundane shouldn't be fun. The Edge rules allow it to be fun, and not instantly deadly.

-C.

there's always the fun of being the mundane fighting against enhanced beings. The rules make it feasible to be a mundane, but as others have said, it really depends on the campaign and also the rest of the group.

What I like is more of the Blade runner feel, the mundanes being like Deckard and him trying to take on stronger, faster, better replicants. Oh, how about Ghost in the Shell, with Togusa being one of the few uncybered guys around using more of his brains. Or maybe Leon and his partner in the ADP. But again, it really depends on how the campaign is like.

Actually, I believe I do understand you.

The breakdown occurs in that purchasing the Quality automatically comes bundled with Magic:1. Therefore, if you have the Quality, then you must have a Magic rating.

If you're looking for a mechanically-viable method of Awakening a character during his/her lifetime, I'd like to point out that while you must purchase the Quality in character generation, there's nothing saying that a character can't have lacked that Quality prior to generation.

That is to say, your PC grew up as a mundane, hit puberty (or had a massive spiritual experience, or whatever), manifested the Quality, and then became a player character. As such the Quality was never purchased outside of chargen and it all remains legal.

The eternal fallback, as I mentioned earlier, is a GM who's willing to Awaken you during gameplay. Technically the GM would be allowing you to break the rules, but as long as everyone at your table is comfortable with it.... who cares?

The mixing was my attempt to reconcile the "I wasn't a mage until puberty, but I was genetically always a mage" thing you brought up.

I apologize for not adequately getting my point across, and I'll admit conversational defeat. Or at least make a tactical withdrawal to go do something else.

Because of the point balance in SR4, mundanes have so many options available to them, most character concepts in that vein are viable. Edge is what makes that possible. Any mundane with a low edge is dead meat. My experience to back that is my "ubar street sam" used 4 edge in one combat to avoid a messy death. One tough battle, and a low edge character can be in a world of hurt.

What might be a more interesting discussion:
Is any other race besides human worthwhile? That bonus edge is sweet.