Cain has succeeded in a test which involved rolling more hits on Willpower, than the attacker rolled on Logic. Cf. the thread on PC-vs-PC social interactions.

One can install a pilot on a vehicle. As long there is no quote saying "installing pilot on a vehicle requires rigger adaption", it does not.

We are just told that drones need to have rigger adaption for that. Vehicles are distinct from drones because they don´t have rigger adaption. I do not need to install a pilot because they come with pilot. Which they may have, because vehicles may run pilot programs.

After you installed rigger adaption, your vehicle can be used as a drone. But you don´t have to do that.

When your supporting argument is the rules don't say I can't, well.... there's a lot of stuff the rules don't say.

Drones have Rigger Adaption and Pilot does not mean all things with Pilot have Rigger adaption.

The bit about drones having both Rigger Adaption and Pilot is in the book, but the inference that anything with Pilot must also have Rigger Adaption is not. (Please show me this exact statement in this form if I am wrong, I would be more then happy to see this. It is true all the vehicles in the book have Pilot, but the connection to Rigger Adaption is not explicit.)

Since it also does not state anywhere Rigger Adaption is required for a Pilot to operate a vehicle, I do not draw the conclusion that anything with Pilot must have Rigger Adaption as well.

It's basically an argument of definition. A drone is distinguished from a vehicle by tthe rigger adaptation that provides a Pilot program. In other words, the defining line between drones and vehicles is that Pilot program.

Look at it this way. All drones must be able to act a limited degree on their own. That's part of what defines a drone, that autonomous capacity. All the vehicles in the BBB have Pilots, enabling them to act to a limited degree on their own. That means they're all drones, in addition to being vehicles. And since the book says all drones must be rigger-adapted, then all the vehicles in the book are also rigger-adapted.

I don't get what the furor is.

Injecting some of my own take on this and that of the players and other DMS in the FanBoy 3 circuit (you know who you are)

Pilot - Software that runs a vehicle or other mechanical device (such as an autodoc or nano-fac), installed to a basic degree on all vehicles (may be upgraded)

Rigger adaptaion - a series of sensors and feedback circuits that act as a simrig for the device they are put in, always comes with a pilot program.

Drone - A vehicle with no control/passenger space, always comes with Rigger adaptaion to allow VR control.


The BBB Doesn't say that all vehciles are drones, nor does it imply it,


SR4 p238: "The key difference that sets drones apart from ordinary vehicles is the rigger adaptation that provides drones with a Pilot program"

This states that its the Rigger adaptation that makes a drone NOT the pilot program, the fact that a rigger adaption gives a vehcile a pilot program does not mean this is the only way to get a pilot program.

Vehicles can be controlled by Physical (with or without AR assist), Command or by Remote.

Drones can be controlled by Command, Remote, or Rigging

Vehciles which have been rigger adapted can be controlled by Physical, Command, Remote or Rigging.


This take means that the rules in the skills and combat/vehcile section can be applied without any confusion

The main thing people are ignoring, straight from the BBB, page 238: (assuming BBB is big black book from what I read here, being the SR4 tome, please correct me if I'm wrong)

My take on it.

All vehicles have Pilots. Rigger Adaption includes (among other things) installing a type of upgraded Pilot that turns the vehicle into an actual drone.

I think you are arguing one of the main problems with the SR4 rules which no one really ever talks about:

Sloppiness of term usage.

In SR3 you could only rig if you had a VCR. In SR4 anyone who has a sim module and a commlink can "jump into" a vehicle. They didn't want to get rid of riggers so they put the Control Rig cyberware in. However, they unfortunately use the term Rigging to refer to anyone jumping into or using a vehicle. It muddies the rigging rules.

CAD/CAM systems are able to run themselves. They have a pilot. The operator does not "jump into" the system in order to correct a problem, he just corrects the orders given to the system.

According to Cain, anyone who operates a CAD/CAM system should also have the Control Rig cyberware because they'd get a +2 dice pool bonus to monitor the manufacture of widgets. This is because according to him everything with a Pilot has to have a Rigger Adaptation.

Here's some fuel for the fire... This is new input, not "yes it is/no it isn't"

Do vehicles require a rigger adaptation for sensors?

According to the "all BBB vehicles are drones" group, yes they do. What's rolled for sensor, pilot + autosoft, and the only way to get a pilot is through a rigger adaptation.

According to the "Rigger adaptation yields Pilot but Pilot doesn't require Rigger adaptation" group you have half your program already provided free with the vehicle, but your sensor is likely to suck anyways because most vehicles only have a rating 1 pilot.

[Opinion]
The way it is meant to be taken, is all vehicles have a pilot that is just a simple computer to handle the car, it tells you your fluids are low, tunes the radio to match your prefrences, sets the internal temperature to a reasonable setting, check grid guide for warnings, respond to Lone Star overriding the car and telling it to pull over, and follow grid guide routes from point A to point B. The Pilot is essentially User/OS, the vehicle itself is the commlink.

Once you add a rigger adaptation, then the vehicle is able to respond at a level that a rigger can put out. Then it can perform stunts greater than parallel parking and merging. The rigger adaptation are skill wires for the vehicle basically its not the commlink, just an add-on feature.
[/Opinion]

Cain, all your arguments have the assumption that Pilot programs require Rigger Adaption.

The book clearly states the Rigger Adaption on Drones includes a Pilot program. This is where Drones are defined as non passenger vehicles.

The book also clearly states that Passenger Vehicles are not normally Rigger Adapted.

The book also shows all examples of Passenger vehicles have a Pilot program.

The connection that a Pilot program requires Rigger Adaption is not clearly stated.

The inference that all Passenger vehicles have Pilot and are also Rigger Adapted is not clearly stated. (In fact you'll note it is clearly indicated that all passenger vehicles are not Rigger Adapted)

You cannot logically infer all vehicles have pilots.
You cannot logically infer all vehicles are Rigger Adapted.
You cannot logically infer Pilots require Rigger Adaption to operate.

You may may make all or some of those assumptions.

On a side note, my personal opinion regarding Vehicle Control Rigs and Rigger Adaption, Rigger Adapation is required for anyone to use VR and Jump In. Control Rigs add + 2 Dice when Jumped In.

The big difference between a "vehicle" and a "drone" in most uses of the terms is that a drone can't be manually piloted, whereas a vehicle can be either or.

Y'all realize this is thread necromancy, right? This puppy was dead for nearly 3 months.

To rehash the rehashed:

Some people feel B requires A and since all vehicles have B therefore all vehicles have A.

Other people feel that B is typically bundled with A but not necessarily, so the existence of B on all vehicles doesn't mean they have A.

And the FAQ, to the best of my knowledge, dodges this question with karma thrown into a 12-die combat pool.

So until someone at Fanpro is willing to quash this grenade, have your GM publicly make a call for your group but realize that about 30% of the gamers out there might disagree (the remaining 40% are ambivalent or never thought about it)

Actually, using occam's razor the simplest interpretation would be that unless explicitly stated, it's an assumption, and thus not a fact.

Looking at the Vehicles and Drones in the street gear section, The drone section explicitly states that "All drones are equipped with rigger adapdation" while in that same section, before the vehicles the rigger adaptation is again explicitly listed as having to be added to a vehicle.

The fact that a matrix character can give a vehicle commands, for which a pilot rating would be needed to interpret them further clouds the issue, but it would seem to indicate that a pilot rating isn't neccesarily connected to the rigger adaptation.

Of course, every GM will decide this for themselves, but the rules, while a bit fuzzy, do not explicitly deny either of the two points of view. While I personally believe it's non-standard, I can see how some would see it as being standard, though the question to me would arise why they would've bothered to specifically list the adaptation set. I just hope that it'll be adressed in rigger 4, or arsenal, or whatever book will supplement vehicle rules.

I'm at work at the mo and thus no BBB, but I was rereading the rules for vehicles in the combat section and theres a bit of text in there that helped shed some light someone want to have a quick gander at their BBB its in one of the first few paragrapghs in the section.

Its funny, I haven't been on these forums for months and this topic I started is still on the front page

I have skim read the rest of this thread and I can agree that although drones get their pilot rating by having rigger adaptation installed, this may not be the only way to get a pilot rating into a vehicle.

This would thus mean there is no contradiction between the vehicle listing which shows pilot ratings on non-drones. Also I assume that the need for a control rig to rig a drone is an error in the description of Rigger Adaptation.

5 Ways to Pilot a Vehicle in Shadowrun 4th Edition

1. Physically
The driver physically sits in the vehicle and uses the manual controls of the vehicle to pilot it.
Roll: Reaction + Vehicle Skill
Threshold: As normal
Initiative: As normal (Reaction + Intuition for un-augmented characters)
Passes: As normal (1 pass for un-augmented characters)

2. Physically + AR
The driver physically sits in the vehicle and uses the manual controls, augmented with the virtual controls of the vehicle to pilot it. This requires a commlink and associated peripherals.
Roll: Reaction + Vehicle Skill +1
Threshold: As normal
Initiative: As normal (Reaction + Intuition for un-augmented characters)
Passes: As normal (1 pass for un-augmented characters)

SR4 p159:
Characters who are physically driving/piloting with the aid of augmented reality (they have subscribed to the vehicle as a service) receive a +1 dice pool modifier on all Vehicle Tests.

3. Remotely
The driver is not sitting at the manual controls of the vehicle but instead controls it remotely with a commlink over a wireless link.
Roll: Command program + Vehicle Skill
Threshold: As normal
Initiative: As normal (Reaction + Intuition for un-augmented characters)
Passes: As normal (1 pass for un-augmented characters)

SR4 p220:
Remotely controlling a drone would take a Command + vehicle skill Test, and so on.
Note that remotely controlling a drone in this matter is different from rigging a drone (requiring you to ‘jump into’ the drone with full VR and ‘become’ the drone) or issuing commands to a drone (in which case it acts on its own accord).
SR4 p159:
If they are remotely controlling the vehicle, they receive no bonus.

4. Rigging
The act of using a simsense module (either cyberware or in a commlink) to be able to ‘jump into’ a vehicle and control it using full VR immersion. The rigger may be physically located in the vehicle and accessing it via a fibre optic link, or he can be controlling it remotely via a wireless connection (a commlink). This requires the vehicle to be rigger adapted meaning only drones and those vehicles explicitly adapted can be rigged.
Roll: Reaction + Vehicle Skill (+2 if driver has a Control Rig implant)
Threshold: -1
Initiative: Commlink’s Response + Intuition (+1 if Hot Sim)
Passes: 2 passes (3 passes if Hot Sim)

SR4 p158:
If the controlling character is using full-immersion virtual reality to control the vehicle (this is called ‘rigging’ the vehicle), the vehicle operates on his Matrix Initiative (see p. 230).

SR4 p159:
Characters who are driving a vehicle through virtual reality (whether they are directly jacked in to the vehicle or piloting it remotely), receive a -1 threshold modifier to all Vehicle Tests.

SR4 p228:
A simsense module is required to access full VR. The sim module is a commlink accessory that you access with a datajack or trode net.

SR4 p230:
If you’re operating in cold sim virtual reality, your Matrix Initiative equals your commlink’s Response + your own Intuition attribute. You also get an extra Initiative Pass (two total).
If you’re running with hot sim in virtual reality mode, your Matrix Initiative equals your commlink’s Response + your own Intuition attribute + 1. You get two extra Initiative Passes (three total).

SR4 p331:
Control Rig: This implant harnesses the raw data-coordinating and synchronization power of the middle brain for the express purpose of directly manipulating rigged vehicles / drones. The control rig provides a +2 dice pool bonus on all Vehicle skill tests while the rigger is ‘jumped into’ a vehicle/drone via full virtual reality. This bonus does not apply to other drone manipulation through the Matrix.

SR4 p341:
Rigger Adaptation: When added to a vehicle, this ‘black box’ allows a character with a control rig (see p. 331) to rig the vehicle (see Rigging and Drones, p. 238), either through a direct fiberoptic cable or wireless link.
NOTE: The condition that the character has a control rig is believed to be an error, though this has not been officially confirmed. The basis of this assumption is that if having a control rig was the only was to rig a vehicle then the -1 threshold modifier for “full immersion� VR would be mentioned under the Control Rig description (it is not).

5. Issuing Commands
This involves the character issuing a command to a drone or vehicle with a Pilot rating. The vehicle or drone performs the task on its own.
Roll: Pilot + Maneuver autosoft
Threshold: As normal
Initiative: Pilot + response
Passes: 3

SR4 p221:
While online, you can issue commands to an agent (p. 227), drone (p. 238), sprite (p. 234), or other device under your control with a Simple Action.

SR4 p238:
Drones acting on their own use their own Pilot and autosoft (see p. 239) ratings for all necessary tests, and act on their own Initiative (see p. 239).

SR4 p239:
Drone Initiative equals Pilot rating + Response, and they receive two extra Initiative Passes (three total).

SR4 p240:
Maneuver autosofts are the equivalent of vehicle skills - they assist a Pilot to maneuver itself better. [?] A drone with this autosoft rolls Pilot + Maneuver for Vehicle Tests (see p. 159).


Are the SR4 vehicles by default adapted for rigger control?
Page 238 states that it is Rigger Adaptation that provides a vehicle with a Pilot Rating, it also states that only drones usually come pre-adapted for rigger control.

SR4 p238:
The key difference that sets drones apart from ordinary vehicles is the rigger adaptation that provides drones with a Pilot program, which enables the drone to act independently of its controller to a limited degree.
All drones that are incapable of carrying passengers are usually automatically pre-adapted for rigger control. Passenger vehicles or larger passenger drones are not usually pre-adapted, but can be adapted quickly by the manufacturer, a mechanic, or even a rigger character (see Rigger Adaptation, p. 341).

However, this does not necessarily imply that the only way to get a Pilot rating is to be rigger adapted i.e. rigger adaptation may be only one of several methods to provide a vehicle with a pilot rating. This distinction is made because the vehicle listing on page 342 shows every vehicle has a Pilot rating of 1 or more!

Ahhh that is sweet of you. Unfortunately I find RPG.net to be my main forum of choice nowadays as it covers all games that I play (including Shadowrun).

Still I may pop in every so often

Remotely is basically remote control, the pilot isn't doing anything. You are driving or targeting, the system is responding to your actions not the pilots. But command only works for physical actions I'd say you can't "Command" perception. It might be command + sensor in this scenario of remoting a camera. Most times this is a complex action.

Issuing commands is only a simple action per command whether issued to one drone or army of drones. These are less detailed then remoting. You tell drone (swarm) to return home, or target the sammy. They do the work you tell 'em what to do and forget them till its time to issue another order.

I'll reiterate though that there's supposed to be a -2 to dicepool due to "remotely controlling" This I believe is listed where its explaining command in reference to the med drone. I need to start bringing my SR4 book with me to work

AR uses physical initiative, VR is Response+Intuition(cold)+1(on hot VR).

If that were the case, passengers would get the benefit of the vehicle's armor when the vehicle crashes. They don't: "Characters resist ramming damage wth half their Impact armor (round up).", p 160. Crashes are treated as if they were rams.