If I have my stats right the Walther MA-2100 has a 14S and a heavy machine gun has a 10S. The Barrett is a 14D attack. The Barrett and the heavy machinegun are .50 caliber weapons in the real world. Does anyone else think the the power levels of the Barrett and the heavy machine gun should be closer togther?

i think it's ok considering that iirc both of the snipers are SS guns, while the machine guns you can toss into full auto.

It's a game balance over realism issue most likely

Think about it like this: In general you can consider that armor values reflect not only the toughness of the armor, but also the area covered. It could very well be the case that the sniper rife has a higher damage code because it is more likely to put the same round into a more vital area - effectively adding to your skill and upping the damage.

You are absolutely right that the damage code of the HMG is crap compared to other guns. The standard excuse would be game balance -- 14D on fully automatic tends to make people very dead. Of course, a god damn heavy machinegun should kill people.

In my games, 12.7x99mm FMJs out of a long barrel did 14D with -10 to target body armor, regardless of whether it was shot from an anti-material rifle or a HMG.

*shrugs*

Hey, I'm not trying to justify it - just offering a possible explanation that conforms to other parts of the system.

The calibre of the round isnt the only consideration when determining the damage it will do. A sniper rifle has a longer barrel, with less wear, and more precise rifling. This raises the muzzle velocity significantly. Also, as I believe the barret is an anti-material/anti-tank rifle the powder charge is probably significantly more powerful than that of an HMG, as you dont necessarily want a 3 mile range on an hmg, and the friction of a bullet going 150% faster through the barrel might cause warping, heat and wear issues.

My point is that it doesn't conform to other parts of the system. Otherwise it would be a likely excuse, and one that has certainly been used to ruin dozens of FPS-games.

In 2063, sniper rifles don't use the same ammo as HMGs. This is supported by the rules concerning ammo.

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn56-e.htm

It speaks for itself.

Right. Some time in the 21st century, all firearms designers got together and decided that from here on HMGs should suck ass, sound suppressors have to self-destruct once they've had 300 rounds fired through them, and every firearm in existence has to be fed with the exact same kind of detachable box magazine.

To change the topic slightly, has anyone ever written a realistic ruleset/damageset for firearms?

Yes.

I don't think the HMG in Shadowrun was actually designed after the Browning M2.

I think based on the damage rating, it would more likely be something like a .30-06, or maybe a 7.62x54R.

Now that I look at it, the description in the SR3 rulebook labels the HMG as an "RPK". That doesn't make any sense at all, considering an RPK is just a larger version of an AK, and still uses the same magazines and 7.62x39 ammo.

Now, an RPD would use belts, but still be 7.62x39.

Perhaps what they actually had in mind was a PKM, which is a belt-fed 7.62x54R. That would make a LOT more sense, based on the damage, considering that the 7.62x54R is fairly comparable to the 7.62 NATO.

So, any opinions?

That'd require them to have had no fucking idea what light, medium or heavy machineguns are. And since LMGs, MMGs, and HMGs all do more damage than Assault Rifles, as much damage as Sport Rifles, and less damage than Sniper Rifles, that'd mean they were basically making all three based on GPMGs like the M60, M240 and the PKM. It's possible they really were that ignorant, but that doesn't mean we have to be.

Since WW2, no HMGs have been manufactured in number that were chambered for anything but .50BMG, 12.7x108mm, or 14.5x114mm.

Sniper rifles have a higher damage rating because they're kewl.

If you play out the downsides of a HMG as well, I don't think they are particularly unbalanced. The massive size and weight, having to have a (stationary, unless you're a troll) mount to fire it from, etc. make it not a very shadowrunner-friendly weapon. It's only really useful in a warzone, and any team of shadowrunners that decide to make their own warzone will quickly find themselves outgunned.

HMGs have always been around and theoretically available in my games, but none of my players ever showed any interest in getting one. They were quite happy with their GPMG and ARs.

they work decent on vehicle mounted though. I've always preferred to get a minigun if I'm going for something that heavy though. 7.62 is always easier to get ahold of.

But if you have to stop any sort of armored vehicle, that 7.62 is just going to bounce right off. At point blank range, HMG rounds have some marginal anti-armor abilities

I have to say my feeling is the HMG round, assuming it's a .50BMG or equivalent, when compared to the assault rifle is probably more accurately reflected at 14S than 10S. Agree or disagree?

Raygun puts the .50 BMG at 14D, as do I. 14S is certainly better for it than 10S.

In SR, sniper rifles use different (and better) ammo than HMGs do. Live with it.

HOW DO FIREARMS REALISM!!!!!!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!





No, but seriously. The wonky damage codes in SR3 really infuriated me. I really like Raygun's system better, or anyone who thinks of house rules to fix the wonky damage codes.

I'd be in favor of getting rid of a lot of the "creative" ammo types in favor of getting more "correct" stats for each gun and sticking to real ammo types such as FMJ, JHP, hydro-shock, or whatever.

If they had done that for SR4 it would have been absolutely badass, but of course they didn't.

So now we have situations where .50 cal machine guns are strangely ineffective compared to NATO 7.62 rifles. Duuurrrhhhh....

iirc, in Feilds of Fire, the brret is listed as requiring a special type of ammo, I will look it up to be sure though.

I have always thought of the hight\er damage code as having greater penitration capability. Example: Regular sword: (str+1 )M Katana or monosword (sharper edge) (Str+3)M

is the damage code off? Prolly, but it has rarely come up for us. HMGs aren't found often.

no offense but in sr4 the damage codes are already pretty lethal enough, making the weapons higher, while definatly "more real" really wouldn't do much balance wise and make the games fire fights (sorry it's a trademark like matrix gun fights) over quickly for one side or the other or both and a whole lot messier.

I really don't think that SR sniper rifles are 20mm, especially considering that most 20mm rifles tend to weigh 100+ lbs. Not exactly easy to carry, even for a troll.

Anti-Tank Rifles

Scroll down to the bottom, and check out the Solothurn and the Lahti. (I also recommend reading Unintended Consequenses by John Ross, but that's a whole 'nother topic )

I would consider the 20mm to be in the assault cannon catagory, personally.

Besides, how you would you explain the Ranger Arms SM-3 being able to disassemble and fit into a "standard briefcase"?

Well, in game mechanics, a gas vent is useless for a sniper rifle, because it's a semi-automatic weapon, and only ever accumalates 1 point of recoil anyway.

In the game world, a gas vent could prove useful, and a sound suppressor could work by actively causing destructive interferance (by the gunsmith in question taking a recording of the gun firing, and adding on speakers that project the opposite noise- this would have the added advantage of negating the noise of the firearm's mechanism, which conventional silencers don't do).

Yup, nothing like having stereo speakers mounted to your 20mm sniper rifle...

Who doesn't want speakers mounted on their sniper rifles? I mean, just imagine the cross-platform technological possibilities. Not busy shooting someone? Jam out to some funky tunes! Shooting someone? Project anti-sound to muffle the gunshot. Done shooting someone? Play cool action movie music as you walk away in slo-mo.

Awesome.

Critias, I worship you.

Is this actual slow-motion or just the shooter moving very slowly while everyone else walks by at full speed?

That all depends on the quality of the chip he's slotting to make himself think he's an action movie star.

IIRC, the barret does still call for its own special ammo at least. Not that it can justify that kind of increase on that merrit.

I agree, HMG = 1/2" and should turn trolls into paste.

*Edit* Wow... thats... ornate for 1988... I wonder if it would actually work.

Just my 0.02:

I don't know much about sniper rifles in Shadowrun, but I do know something about real-life ones.

Since both the Barrett M-82A1 and the Browning M2HB are chambered for the .50 Browning Machine Gun (".50 BMG" for short, or "12.7 X 99mm Browning", for those of you accustomed to the Metric System), the ammunition is interchangeable.

The problem is that the ammunition used in the Barrett is (usually) match-grade (although "sniper-grade" might be a better term), while that used in the M2HB is not. (As Raygun's site mentions, match-grade ammunition can either be factory-made or handloaded; it's manufactured to much tighter tolerances than conventional factory ammunition--especially when compared to normal military-grade ammunition, most of which is just to ensure that the weapon for which it's made functions well and is reasonably accurate.) All other things being equal, a Barrett firing conventional .50 BMG ammunition will suffer a slight loss of accuracy at extreme range (over 1,500 meters, I expect), but it shouldn't make much of a difference, except against a small target.
(Chances are, though, that regardless of where a man is hit by a bullet from a .50-BMG-caliber weapon, he's either going to die or be permanently crippled. Even though they don't expand, those bullets are capable of doing a LOT of damage.)

Also, while the M2HB is primarily an area-effect weapon, it IS capable of astonishing feats of long-range accuracy.

During the Vietnam War, legendary Marine sniper Gunnery Sergeant Carlos N. Hathcock, II, killed a Viet Cong operative at 2,500 yards (2,286 meters) with a single shot from a modified M2HB, fitted with an Unertl 8-power telescopic sight on a special mount, which had been buit to his specifications by members of the Navy's Construction Battalion ("Seabees"). The 'scope was the same one Hathcock used on his issued .30-'06-caliber Winchester Model 70 sniper rifle, re-zeroed at 2,500 yards for the big .50.

Although the weapon was still mounted upon its tripod, the rear of the heavy machine gun had been detached from the T&E (Traverse and Elevation) portion of the mount, and emplaced in sandbags to prevent it from moving.

The Viet Cong in question had been bending over or stooping--Hathcock later speculated that he was tying his shoes, cleaning his teeth, or something of the sort. Whatever the truth of it was, Hathcock's shot caught the VC guerrilla under the chin just as he stood up. The 750-grain (1.7-ounce, or 26.5 grams) full-metal-jacketed bullet virtually tore the man's head from his shoulders, killing him instantly.

A similar incident, at a range reportedly in excess of 3,000 yards (2,743 Meters), reportedly occurred during the Korean War, but the exact details (such as the sniper's name) have been lost to history.

End lecture.

--Foreigner

--Foreigner

Mk211 MOD 0 is very much considered "match grade", Aus. In addition to it being an HEIAP projectile, the bullet has a relatively high BC and Raufoss takes a lot of trouble in production as far as consistency is concerned. Mk211 MOD 0 was designed especially for use in the M82A1A (and now the M107 for the Army) as opposed to the M2, where its cost makes it prohibitive to use.

My bad. Still, NAmmo does claim the the current MP rounds were designed with HMGs in mind: "Furthermore, the new family of Multipurpose and Armour Piercing rounds (originally designed for the .50 cal M2 machine gun) have a unique penetration and incendiary effects." (http://www.nammo.com/medium_calibre/12,7mm/127mm.html)