Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Sniper rifle power to high vs hvy machine gun
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3
Findar
If I have my stats right the Walther MA-2100 has a 14S and a heavy machine gun has a 10S. The Barrett is a 14D attack. The Barrett and the heavy machinegun are .50 caliber weapons in the real world. Does anyone else think the the power levels of the Barrett and the heavy machine gun should be closer togther?
Aku
i think it's ok considering that iirc both of the snipers are SS guns, while the machine guns you can toss into full auto.
stevebugge
It's a game balance over realism issue most likely
The Stainless Steel Rat
Think about it like this: In general you can consider that armor values reflect not only the toughness of the armor, but also the area covered. It could very well be the case that the sniper rife has a higher damage code because it is more likely to put the same round into a more vital area - effectively adding to your skill and upping the damage.
Austere Emancipator
You are absolutely right that the damage code of the HMG is crap compared to other guns. The standard excuse would be game balance -- 14D on fully automatic tends to make people very dead. Of course, a god damn heavy machinegun should kill people.

In my games, 12.7x99mm FMJs out of a long barrel did 14D with -10 to target body armor, regardless of whether it was shot from an anti-material rifle or a HMG.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (The Stainless Steel Rat)
It could very well be the case that the sniper rife has a higher damage code because it is more likely to put the same round into a more vital area - effectively adding to your skill and upping the damage.

In SR3, where accuracy (as in lowered TN) directly leads to greater damage because of additional successes on the attacks, there is simply no reason at all to go about it like that. And if it did work like that, why don't accuracy enhancing firearm modifications increase the damage instead of providing increased range or reduced TNs?
The Stainless Steel Rat
*shrugs*

Hey, I'm not trying to justify it - just offering a possible explanation that conforms to other parts of the system.
lumikant
The calibre of the round isnt the only consideration when determining the damage it will do. A sniper rifle has a longer barrel, with less wear, and more precise rifling. This raises the muzzle velocity significantly. Also, as I believe the barret is an anti-material/anti-tank rifle the powder charge is probably significantly more powerful than that of an HMG, as you dont necessarily want a 3 mile range on an hmg, and the friction of a bullet going 150% faster through the barrel might cause warping, heat and wear issues.
Austere Emancipator
My point is that it doesn't conform to other parts of the system. Otherwise it would be a likely excuse, and one that has certainly been used to ruin dozens of FPS-games.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (lumikant)
The calibre of the round isnt the only consideration when determining the damage it will do. A sniper rifle has a longer barrel, with less wear, and more precise rifling. This raises the muzzle velocity significantly. Also, as I believe the barret is an anti-material/anti-tank rifle the powder charge is probably significantly more powerful than that of an HMG, as you dont necessarily want a 3 mile range on an hmg [...]

Sniper rifles do not have longer barrels. In fact, they have much shorter barrels than HMGs: the M2HB has a 1140mm barrel, the Barrett M82 has a 737mm barrel. The muzzle velocity on an M2HB will be significantly higher when firing the same cartridge.

The rifling will be the same assuming they fire the same ammunition -- and they do fire the exact same ammunition, including primers, cases, propellant weights and types, and bullets. Sniper rifle barrels might be manufactured to stricter tolerances, but this only improves accuracy and has no effect on the muzzle velocity.

QUOTE (lumikant)
[...] and the friction of a bullet going 150% faster through the barrel might cause warping, heat and wear issues.

No. The bullets travel just as fast through machineguns as they do through sniper rifles. Heat and wear are problems with MG barrels, but that is not solved, nor has anyone ever seriously tried to solve it, by cutting down on the muzzle velocity.
nick012000
In 2063, sniper rifles don't use the same ammo as HMGs. This is supported by the rules concerning ammo. nyahnyah.gif
hyzmarca
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn56-e.htm

It speaks for itself.
Austere Emancipator
Right. Some time in the 21st century, all firearms designers got together and decided that from here on HMGs should suck ass, sound suppressors have to self-destruct once they've had 300 rounds fired through them, and every firearm in existence has to be fed with the exact same kind of detachable box magazine.
Robotech Master
To change the topic slightly, has anyone ever written a realistic ruleset/damageset for firearms?
Austere Emancipator
Yes.
Shrapnel
I don't think the HMG in Shadowrun was actually designed after the Browning M2.

I think based on the damage rating, it would more likely be something like a .30-06, or maybe a 7.62x54R.

Now that I look at it, the description in the SR3 rulebook labels the HMG as an "RPK". That doesn't make any sense at all, considering an RPK is just a larger version of an AK, and still uses the same magazines and 7.62x39 ammo.

Now, an RPD would use belts, but still be 7.62x39.

Perhaps what they actually had in mind was a PKM, which is a belt-fed 7.62x54R. That would make a LOT more sense, based on the damage, considering that the 7.62x54R is fairly comparable to the 7.62 NATO.

So, any opinions?
Austere Emancipator
That'd require them to have had no fucking idea what light, medium or heavy machineguns are. And since LMGs, MMGs, and HMGs all do more damage than Assault Rifles, as much damage as Sport Rifles, and less damage than Sniper Rifles, that'd mean they were basically making all three based on GPMGs like the M60, M240 and the PKM. It's possible they really were that ignorant, but that doesn't mean we have to be.

Since WW2, no HMGs have been manufactured in number that were chambered for anything but .50BMG, 12.7x108mm, or 14.5x114mm.
eidolon
Sniper rifles have a higher damage rating because they're kewl.
otomik
QUOTE (Shrapnel)
Now that I look at it, the description in the SR3 rulebook labels the HMG as an "RPK". That doesn't make any sense at all, considering an RPK is just a larger version of an AK, and still uses the same magazines and 7.62x39 ammo.

yeah and the HK227 has a picture of a 7.62mm NATO G3-type weapon, RPK means Light Machinegun Kalashnikov so it's kind of rediculous that Ruchnoy (light) would be a heavy machinegun.

honestly though, the capabilities of a heavy machinegun wouldn't work well with 3rd edition mechanics, it's getting out of the area of small arms, there's enough experiences with weird unbalanced weapons like the Ruger Thunderbolt, GyroJet Pistol, Narcojet everything, etc.
Austere Emancipator
If you play out the downsides of a HMG as well, I don't think they are particularly unbalanced. The massive size and weight, having to have a (stationary, unless you're a troll) mount to fire it from, etc. make it not a very shadowrunner-friendly weapon. It's only really useful in a warzone, and any team of shadowrunners that decide to make their own warzone will quickly find themselves outgunned.

HMGs have always been around and theoretically available in my games, but none of my players ever showed any interest in getting one. They were quite happy with their GPMG and ARs.
Fix-it
they work decent on vehicle mounted though. I've always preferred to get a minigun if I'm going for something that heavy though. 7.62 is always easier to get ahold of.
Crusher Bob
But if you have to stop any sort of armored vehicle, that 7.62 is just going to bounce right off. At point blank range, HMG rounds have some marginal anti-armor abilities
nick012000
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
If you play out the downsides of a HMG as well, I don't think they are particularly unbalanced. The massive size and weight, having to have a (stationary, unless you're a troll) mount to fire it from, etc. make it not a very shadowrunner-friendly weapon. It's only really useful in a warzone, and any team of shadowrunners that decide to make their own warzone will quickly find themselves outgunned.

HMGs have always been around and theoretically available in my games, but none of my players ever showed any interest in getting one. They were quite happy with their GPMG and ARs.

Unless you're a rigger, and decide to stick it on a drone. wink.gif
Raygun
QUOTE (eidolon)
Sniper rifles have a higher damage rating because they're kewl.

That was very probably the extent of the logic behind it, yes.

Findar
I have to say my feeling is the HMG round, assuming it's a .50BMG or equivalent, when compared to the assault rifle is probably more accurately reflected at 14S than 10S. Agree or disagree?
Austere Emancipator
Raygun puts the .50 BMG at 14D, as do I. 14S is certainly better for it than 10S.
eidolon
QUOTE (Raygun)
QUOTE (eidolon @ Jan 28 2006, 07:35 PM)
Sniper rifles have a higher damage rating because they're kewl.

That was very probably the extent of the logic behind it, yes.

Meh. Not all of us worry so much about it. It works in the game. No biggie. smile.gif
nick012000
In SR, sniper rifles use different (and better) ammo than HMGs do. Live with it.
Wounded Ronin
HOW DO FIREARMS REALISM!!!!!!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!





No, but seriously. The wonky damage codes in SR3 really infuriated me. I really like Raygun's system better, or anyone who thinks of house rules to fix the wonky damage codes.

I'd be in favor of getting rid of a lot of the "creative" ammo types in favor of getting more "correct" stats for each gun and sticking to real ammo types such as FMJ, JHP, hydro-shock, or whatever.

If they had done that for SR4 it would have been absolutely badass, but of course they didn't.

So now we have situations where .50 cal machine guns are strangely ineffective compared to NATO 7.62 rifles. Duuurrrhhhh....
Mortax
iirc, in Feilds of Fire, the brret is listed as requiring a special type of ammo, I will look it up to be sure though.

I have always thought of the hight\er damage code as having greater penitration capability. Example: Regular sword: (str+1 )M Katana or monosword (sharper edge) (Str+3)M

is the damage code off? Prolly, but it has rarely come up for us. HMGs aren't found often.
Liper
no offense but in sr4 the damage codes are already pretty lethal enough, making the weapons higher, while definatly "more real" really wouldn't do much balance wise and make the games fire fights (sorry it's a trademark like matrix gun fights) over quickly for one side or the other or both and a whole lot messier.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (nick012000)
In SR, sniper rifles use different (and better) ammo than HMGs do. Live with it.

Since apparently my earlier attempt at sarcasm failed: That just makes no fucking sense at all, so those of us who understand how firearms work and value reason decide to ignore it.
nick012000
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Jan 30 2006, 10:10 AM)
QUOTE (nick012000)
In SR, sniper rifles use different (and better) ammo than HMGs do. Live with it.

Since apparently my earlier attempt at sarcasm failed: That just makes no fucking sense at all, so those of us who understand how firearms work and value reason decide to ignore it.

Oh? And why is that? Just because modern sniper rifles use similar (or smaller) ammo to HMGs, doesn't mean that SR sniper rifles do. SR sniper rifles are probably more like that 20mm anti-vehicular rifle linked to earlier, but with more advanced recoil compensation technology.

QUOTE (SR3 @ p.279)
AMMUNITION
In addition to its various types (standard, gel and APDS), ammunition is also defined by the class of gun for which it was made (light pistol, assault rifle, MMG). In Shadowrun, each kind of gun can trade ammo with another of its class. For example, all light pistols can share ammo. Use the categories shown on the Weapon Range Table, p. 111, to determine what gun types can share ammo.


The SR3 core rulebook supports me on this. Sniper rifles use different ammo to HMGs. Therefore, sniper rifle ammo is different. Since sniper rifles deal more damage than HMGs out of the box, sniper rifle ammo is better than HMG ammo.
Shrapnel
I really don't think that SR sniper rifles are 20mm, especially considering that most 20mm rifles tend to weigh 100+ lbs. Not exactly easy to carry, even for a troll.

Anti-Tank Rifles

Scroll down to the bottom, and check out the Solothurn and the Lahti. (I also recommend reading Unintended Consequenses by John Ross, but that's a whole 'nother topic wink.gif )

I would consider the 20mm to be in the assault cannon catagory, personally.

Besides, how you would you explain the Ranger Arms SM-3 being able to disassemble and fit into a "standard briefcase"?
Raygun
QUOTE (nick012000)
Oh? And why is that? Just because modern sniper rifles use similar (or smaller) ammo to HMGs, doesn't mean that SR sniper rifles do. SR sniper rifles are probably more like that 20mm anti-vehicular rifle linked to earlier, but with more advanced recoil compensation technology.

Sweet! Is it powered by nuclear space monkeys?
nick012000
QUOTE (Raygun)
QUOTE (nick012000 @ Jan 31 2006, 03:36 AM)
Oh? And why is that? Just because modern sniper rifles use similar (or smaller) ammo to HMGs, doesn't mean that SR sniper rifles do. SR sniper rifles are probably more like that 20mm anti-vehicular rifle linked to earlier, but with more advanced recoil compensation technology.

Sweet! Is it powered by nuclear space monkeys?

I doubt that, and I'm serious. It would probably involve shock-absorbing materials of some description, though, possibly combined with gas vents of some description- maybe built into integral sound suppressors (which, I'll point out, might not bear any resemblence to today's sound supressors).
The Stainless Steel Rat
QUOTE (nick012000)
...It would probably involve shock-absorbing materials of some description, though, possibly combined with gas vents of some description- maybe built into integral sound suppressors (which, I'll point out, might not bear any resemblence to today's sound supressors).

On to which you could then add gas vent systems and barrel mounted silencers? (Bearing of course, little-to-no resemblance to modern silencers...)
nick012000
Well, in game mechanics, a gas vent is useless for a sniper rifle, because it's a semi-automatic weapon, and only ever accumalates 1 point of recoil anyway.

In the game world, a gas vent could prove useful, and a sound suppressor could work by actively causing destructive interferance (by the gunsmith in question taking a recording of the gun firing, and adding on speakers that project the opposite noise- this would have the added advantage of negating the noise of the firearm's mechanism, which conventional silencers don't do).
Shrapnel
Yup, nothing like having stereo speakers mounted to your 20mm sniper rifle... biggrin.gif
Raygun
QUOTE (nick012000)
QUOTE (Raygun @ Jan 30 2006, 11:55 PM)
Sweet! Is it powered by nuclear space monkeys?

I doubt that, and I'm serious.

Dang. I've always thought that super high-tech stuff that defies all logic should always be powered by nuclear space monkeys. Just has a certain... anneau des singes de l'espace to it.

QUOTE
It would probably involve shock-absorbing materials of some description, though, possibly combined with gas vents of some description- maybe built into integral sound suppressors (which, I'll point out, might not bear any resemblence to today's sound supressors).

I don't think you're giving enough credit to nuclear space monkeys here, nick. They're way smaller than "shock-absorbing materials of some description, possibly combined with gas vents of some description- maybe built into integral sound suppressors", require very little maintenance and are a great ice breaker at parties. Dare I submit that nuclear space monkeys are a far more versatile technology! Not only that, but their poo is made of depleted uranium. Hah! So there. I hate to break it to you, but once again, I are won teh intarnet.

grinbig.gif

QUOTE
In the game world, a gas vent could prove useful, and a sound suppressor could work by actively causing destructive interferance (by the gunsmith in question taking a recording of the gun firing, and adding on speakers that project the opposite noise- this would have the added advantage of negating the noise of the firearm's mechanism, which conventional silencers don't do).

Are you the same dude who brought up this hideously ludicrous idea some months (possibly years) ago? I seem to recall it being brought up here before. Well, supposing not, may I officially welcome you to 1990. Anything else you'd like to discuss? Nuclear space monkeys perhaps?
Critias
Who doesn't want speakers mounted on their sniper rifles? I mean, just imagine the cross-platform technological possibilities. Not busy shooting someone? Jam out to some funky tunes! Shooting someone? Project anti-sound to muffle the gunshot. Done shooting someone? Play cool action movie music as you walk away in slo-mo.

Awesome.
The Stainless Steel Rat
Critias, I worship you.
hyzmarca
Is this actual slow-motion or just the shooter moving very slowly while everyone else walks by at full speed?
Critias
That all depends on the quality of the chip he's slotting to make himself think he's an action movie star.
Lindt
IIRC, the barret does still call for its own special ammo at least. Not that it can justify that kind of increase on that merrit.

I agree, HMG = 1/2" and should turn trolls into paste.

*Edit* Wow... thats... ornate for 1988... I wonder if it would actually work.
Foreigner
Just my nuyen.gif 0.02:

I don't know much about sniper rifles in Shadowrun, but I do know something about real-life ones.

Since both the Barrett M-82A1 and the Browning M2HB are chambered for the .50 Browning Machine Gun (".50 BMG" for short, or "12.7 X 99mm Browning", for those of you accustomed to the Metric System), the ammunition is interchangeable.

The problem is that the ammunition used in the Barrett is (usually) match-grade (although "sniper-grade" might be a better term), while that used in the M2HB is not. (As Raygun's site mentions, match-grade ammunition can either be factory-made or handloaded; it's manufactured to much tighter tolerances than conventional factory ammunition--especially when compared to normal military-grade ammunition, most of which is just to ensure that the weapon for which it's made functions well and is reasonably accurate.) All other things being equal, a Barrett firing conventional .50 BMG ammunition will suffer a slight loss of accuracy at extreme range (over 1,500 meters, I expect), but it shouldn't make much of a difference, except against a small target.
(Chances are, though, that regardless of where a man is hit by a bullet from a .50-BMG-caliber weapon, he's either going to die or be permanently crippled. Even though they don't expand, those bullets are capable of doing a LOT of damage.)

Also, while the M2HB is primarily an area-effect weapon, it IS capable of astonishing feats of long-range accuracy.

During the Vietnam War, legendary Marine sniper Gunnery Sergeant Carlos N. Hathcock, II, killed a Viet Cong operative at 2,500 yards (2,286 meters) with a single shot from a modified M2HB, fitted with an Unertl 8-power telescopic sight on a special mount, which had been buit to his specifications by members of the Navy's Construction Battalion ("Seabees"). The 'scope was the same one Hathcock used on his issued .30-'06-caliber Winchester Model 70 sniper rifle, re-zeroed at 2,500 yards for the big .50.

Although the weapon was still mounted upon its tripod, the rear of the heavy machine gun had been detached from the T&E (Traverse and Elevation) portion of the mount, and emplaced in sandbags to prevent it from moving.

The Viet Cong in question had been bending over or stooping--Hathcock later speculated that he was tying his shoes, cleaning his teeth, or something of the sort. Whatever the truth of it was, Hathcock's shot caught the VC guerrilla under the chin just as he stood up. The 750-grain (1.7-ounce, or 26.5 grams) full-metal-jacketed bullet virtually tore the man's head from his shoulders, killing him instantly.

A similar incident, at a range reportedly in excess of 3,000 yards (2,743 Meters), reportedly occurred during the Korean War, but the exact details (such as the sniper's name) have been lost to history.

End lecture. smile.gif

--Foreigner

--Foreigner
Raygun
QUOTE (Lindt)
*Edit*  Wow... thats... ornate for 1988...  I wonder if it would actually work.

You mean the suppressor? Absolutely. Witness the inventor's initials and how they eerily coincide with the name of this company (don't miss the videos). One of the top two suppressor manufacturers for the US military.

An article for you, Foreigner.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Foreigner)
The problem is that the ammunition used in the Barrett is (usually) match-grade (although "sniper-grade" might be a better term), while that used in the M2HB is not.

This might be true when speaking of heavy sniper/anti-material rifles outside of the military, but there is no .50 BMG match-grade ammunition standard for the US military. In the US Army, the M107 fires the same ammunition as the M2HB: Mk 211 Mod 0, M33 Ball, M20 API-T, M17 Tracer, M8 API, etc. Because of the muzzle break, the M107 cannot fire the M903 and M962 SLAP and SLAP-T rounds, but otherwise the ammo is exactly the same.

It is true that this reduces the long range accuracy of the rifle, but so far the couple of thousand such rifles have not prompted the DoD to issue special match ammo for them.
Raygun
Mk211 MOD 0 is very much considered "match grade", Aus. In addition to it being an HEIAP projectile, the bullet has a relatively high BC and Raufoss takes a lot of trouble in production as far as consistency is concerned. Mk211 MOD 0 was designed especially for use in the M82A1A (and now the M107 for the Army) as opposed to the M2, where its cost makes it prohibitive to use.
Austere Emancipator
My bad. Still, NAmmo does claim the the current MP rounds were designed with HMGs in mind: "Furthermore, the new family of Multipurpose and Armour Piercing rounds (originally designed for the .50 cal M2 machine gun) have a unique penetration and incendiary effects." (http://www.nammo.com/medium_calibre/12,7mm/127mm.html)
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012