I think the major problem is how resists actualy works in SR4.

Using body as they do as the resist factor is just plain incorrect and unrealisticly very limiting in nature.

In our old game the Troll in our group had a bigger body then a blue whale in their critters book. And if you did a whale correctly by their system and gave them some ungodly figure for a body attribute, you would suddenly find yourself in a situation where the whale could now resist anti shipping missiles with ease.

A whale should be able to soak up a ton of damage from a heavy pistol but NOT resist it.

Resisting damage due to armor and soaking damage due to mass and what not is two totaly different issues which are not properly repersented here which is why I think there are such issues with ammo, etc.

A Troll is tougher then a human and able to resist damage a little more do to his tough hide and would not be unrealistic to give him a small natural bonus that stacks with any amor that he chooses to wear. But his main power would be in the fact that his sheer massive size would enable him to soak up tons of more damage then any human could.

Why my group has been trying to work up a new combat formula to repersent this AND stay with in the rules for the most part as they have been written. Anyone with standard IQ will be able to easily adjust but you still want it where they can just go in the book at any given moment and look up stuff without worrying about what has been changed overly.

When we are done, we will have a errata sheet to hand out and just start playing.

But we are seperating penetration from damage and since the chars wont be able to resist as well as they use to for the higher end bodies, we are giving them more boxes to soak up hits. Basicly 10 + Body att.

People with small bodies will be able to soak up less hits then a big troll, but now you don't have to die constantly cause every one wants to bring a rocket launcher or a mini nuke to take out the Troll and take you out as just a by product.

But the idea of using body as a resist is just crazy and limits what you can do with creatures and machines because of its two fold effect. A attack coptor and a armored troop coptor might be armored the same but one is going to soak up hits better then other do to size and bullets just plain passing through empty space or into cargo or troops even. And a critical hit is just that, no matter what size it is, a nasty hit is a nasty hit.

When we think we may have a decent formula, I will post it later for review.

Or I can post the test formulas if people are interested and don't feel like waiting for us to finish testing it.

strange, when I punch in:

DV: 10 AP: -2 Nethits: 1
(standard grenade)
vs:
ballistic: 9 Impact: 7 Body: 10
(troll with armour jacket)

with: flechette (+2 DV/+Impact = fragmentation grenade)

I get an average (and average means trading 3:1 not 4:1) of 5.66 physical for the troll.
(DV = 10(grenade)+2(flechette) +1 (nethits) = 13; armour = 7 (impact)-2(grenade)+7(flechette) = 12; DV > armour = no conversion; body 10;
13-22/3 = 5.66)


now with the helmet and against the rocket:

DV: 14 AP: -3 Nethits: 1
(standard rocket)
vs.
ballistic: 11 impact:9 Body: 10

with: flechette (+2 DV/+Impact = fragmentation rocket)

Iget 8.66 physical.
(DV = 14(rocket)+2(flechette) +1 (nethits) = 17; armour = 9 (impact)-3(grenade)+9(flechette) = 15; DV > armour = no conversion; body 10;
17-25/3 = 8.66)

Trolls, don't rocket jump !

Brahm, please do your math again.
I think the results fit very well to the fact, that an extremely tough troll with very god armour is hit by something that is supposed to perform poor against armour.

Why are you adding 1 net hit? For grenades, missles, and rockets you add the net hits, if any, left after scatter is calculated. So I guess he should wear the helmet just incase he accidentally makes a good attack roll and a low scatter roll. That way he need not sweat unless he rolls three five net successes after scatter.

EDIT Not that the scatter rules are really designed for aiming at your feet. But I think that FanPro can be somewhat forgiven for not covering that because it would be plain insanity to do that. Right?

Incidentally for Quake rocket jumping you normally jump, so you should also calculate with a -1 DV if they succeed at a Jump (2) test.

Of course you also just demonstrated another quirk of your rules. Grenades doing little to no stun damage or lots of Physical damage hinging on a single point of armor rating or extra net hits on lobbing the grenade.

Another quirk? Thats the only "quirk" and, as I said, intended by design desicion.

The difference in the grenade example between impact 7 and impact 8 is: 5.66 physical to 2.33 stun. Perfectly acceptable.

But I think you have maid your point. Every further posting would be repetetive.

I'm going to break this down in multiple posts for ease of reading.

(Kinetic energy has even less to do with knocking people down with small arms than momentum does...)

This is the point where I roll my eyes and go do something more constructive.

I fail to understand why. You apparently know something very simple but critical that I, nor anyone who has studied terminal ballistics at any length, do not know, yet you decide not to even give me a hint as to what it is?

Sure, I'll allow myself to be baited once before dropping out of the conversation completely.

The simple-yet-critical information you're failing to consider is that this is a game. Its rules are abstractions designed to roughly simulate realistic (and nonrealistic) situations to promote enjoyment in its participants.

Getting shot with a gun hurts. If the bullet penetrates your body armor, it hurts in a different way than if it didn't. Sometimes people fall down when they're shot, for a multitude of reasons. Taking high-impact blunt force can knock the wind out of people, bruise them, break their bones, and/or cause dizziness. If you take enough of that trauma you can fall unconscious or die.

Shadowrun attempts to represent those concepts in a simplistic, interactive way. As a game, it possesses roughly the same level of realism as a typical Hollywood action movie: it's based around real-world ideas, but at one point it will invoke artistic license for sake of enjoyment.

For instance, any personal objections to the existence of monowhips are as valid as criticizing the idea that there's enough wireless bandwidth available for two-way, full-sensory data transmissions. Yes, it's implausible. No, it doesn't matter.

Well now, if you go back to read what started the argument between the two of us, you'll notice that the message in question opens with "I respectfully submit that your design decision will lead to less realism." Now, I'm not a native English speaker, but it is my understanding that that message dealt with what happens in the real world and what would be a realistic and reasonable simulation of that in a RPG in general terms. I was addressing these points.

If instead you had said "I respectfully submit that your design decision will lead to a less enjoyable game." and then continued with points about how all-or-nothing armor, etc., might make the game unbalanced, then this whole thing could have been avoided. Even if you'd went to claim that the type of game that is enjoyable to you is the only kind of game that can be enjoyable, I would have argued against it with a less definitive tone.

Right, so clarity is needed.

My position: Stun conversion in SR4 is fine. I'm comfortable with the existence of monowhips. Realism levels in SR4 are adequate enough to make the game fun for me and mine. I realized too late in this conversation that analysis had turned into overanalysis.

Your position: Otherwise, to a degree that does not actually affect my game in any way.

So can we be done now, AE? I really would prefer to not start rudely ignoring you. Can we invoke the "agree to disagree" protocol?

I can agree with that. I have nothing against you using any rules in your games. My interest in this thread is only in defining what "real" is, so that if someone is interested in realism there's something to back that up with.

No, Im saying that flechette is +2DV/+Impact
As grenades have 10DV/-2AP, frag grenades have 12DV/+Impact-2. I clearly wrote that down in my SHP.

And thats my final statement. As I said before, everything else can be calculated by the .xls .ods sheets I gave. It is balanced against itself, I like how it works with penetration, you dont. Thats it.

On the issue of the realism of conversion to stun I respectfully submit the North Hollywood Shootout .

Those guys weren't albino gnomes.

What would they have been wearing in SR terms? About rating 16 balistic, or higher? Although after taking as many hits as they did the outer layers would have not been working as well.

If I understood the situation correctly, once SWAT got there with their assault rifles, they could easily penetrate the robbers' armor -- apparently, Phillips' spine was severed by a front-angle shot from a 5.56x45mm rifle. Since 16 points of Ballistic armor would reduce the average AR shot vs. a Bod 3+ target to 1 DV + additional successes, it doesn't seem likely they were wearing the equivalent of that. If you went by just the convert to stun silliness, then they'd have to have been ~6 points or less of Ballistic.

On the other hand, if you went by shotguns in SR4, then they would have to have worn closer to Ballistic 20, since they were apparently impervious to those.

If falling down from getting shot has little to nothing to do with kinetic energy or momentum, then does that mean a pain editor should help prevent knockdown?

I don't even know how the Pain Editor is described in SR4, but I'd assume it kicks in somewhere in the higher regions of the CNS, most likely in the brain. If that is the case: perhaps a little, in the same way that it should reduce penalties from Physical damage.

AFAIK, part of the knock-down effect is on the conscious level, on thinking that when you're shot you're supposed to fall down in pain, or the "I can't believe you shot me!" thing, as well as actually realizing you're in serious pain. But much of it likely depends on how your nerves in the area that is hit react, and what your spine tells, or doesn't tell, the rest of the body it should do before any information gets as far as your brain. What the exact relation of these two are, I haven't a clue.

Ah, so it's still the same as it was in Man & Machine. The functioning of the CNS is not really my specialty, so I've no idea how far up such a cluster would be implanted. If it's implanted above the brain stem, then I'd imagine it would be of less use in combating knockdown from small arms than if it's somewhere around or below the medulla oblongata.

An excellent point.
The body does a fair amount of "talking to itself" outside of the brain. More than you'd expect.
We know that tactile perception tests are penalized by the pain editor, even though touch and pain are generally carried by different nerves. We also know that balance and dexterity are not affected. Yes, most of this comes from your inner ear and brain, but much of it comes from feedback within the muscles & nerves, too.
So wherever these clusters of nerves are, they're above the body's own feedback, but below conscious perception. So, when you get shot and take tissue damage, muscles will still spasm, your body chemistry will react, lots of noise in the sensory parts of your nervous system, etc, but you'll be blocked from perceiving it.
This still removes most of the psychological effects of being shot, but not necessarily all, and the body's own feedback will still be reacting normally.
I'd say that's justification enough to keep the knockdown rules as they are.

I was unaware that it was hard to get Class IV plates as a civilian. I know there's a couple of manufacturers who won't sell to civilians, but there's others who will.

NIJ level IV protection is just a google search away.

http://www.tacticalshop.com/index.asp?Page...PROD&ProdID=159

I also found other stores but far too many of them didn't give a rating for their plates and one sold 'previously deployed' gear. I wouldn't trust a used vest as far as I could throw it because you never know if it was just 'used' or if it was 'used'.

Notice that the plate has a 20 hit capacity but only if the grouping is wider than 12 centimeters. It would only take two full bursts to render it nonfunctional in SR terms.

Also, it isn't rated to stop tungston carbide core projectiles and a quick google search shows that a 194 grain 7.62x51mm WC round can penetrate a class IV trauma plate at 350 meters and more powerful calibers can penetrate at greater than 500 meters.

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/infantry/hug.pdf

Forget APDS, use WC cored bullets instead.

As a rule, APDS ammunition uses a tungsten carbide projectile, or sometimes DU if you're talking about cannons instead of HMGs. I cannot think of any modern steel APDS rounds.

NIJ level IV is tested against the old .30-06 M2 full-caliber steel armor piercing round, which means modern armor piercing rounds like the full-caliber tungsten carbide M993 and M995 NATO rounds is quite likely to penetrate it, as may newer steel core AP rounds such as the Russian 7N13 7.62x54mmR. The smallest existing APDS round in common use, the .50 BMG M903 SLAP, obviously doesn't concern itself with body armor.

Seems I remembered wrong about the availability of rigid armor, it's quite easy to acquire as a civilian in most states. In my defense, I never have nor is it likely that I ever will set foot on US soil.

I'll be honest, I may be part of that market. I've been looking at the possibility of a Class IIIA vest with drop-in Class IV plates for a while now as a personal purchase, and the closest I get to needing one is looking for work as an EMT at the moment (IE, really really unlikely).

One of those "It'd be good to have if I needed it, and I'd feel dumb if I needed it and didn't have it" kind of things, like fire insurance for your house.

I wouldn't touch that with a 10' thermic lance.

Keep your lance away from my house!

The current futzing with Stick-n-Shock I'm looking at is making it an ammunition type only available as a shotgun shell. Any thoughts?

The North Hollywood Shootout clearly shows us that heavy armor is not the answer. As an EMT going into potentially dangerous situations you should learn from the mistakes of the bank robbers. Move quickly and have a good disengagment plan. Disengaging safely is far more important than defeating your foes, who could call for backup. To this end, it would be use to carry shock weapons such as teargas and white phosphorus grenades which you can deploy to quickly neutralize your attackers and discourage persuit while you disengage.