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stevebugge
One of my players wanted to know what the effect of having his sustaining foci surgically implanted in to his mage would be? I didn't have a ready answer for it, so I decided to do some "research" by posting it here.

Basically the questions are:

Would it cost essence?

Could they be turned on and off or would they be always on?
Dawnshadow
Depends on what you mean by "implanted", and what the focus is.

An (insert body part) piercing? No essence, should be fine.

Cyberware-type stuff? (Anything that provides a function beyond aesthetics) That costs essence.


That's probably a good measure for it; if the form of the focus does nothing, then no essence cost. Provided, of course, that the focus is small in size, and isn't being implanted anywhere vital, and so on and so forth.

Otherwise, they'd behave like normal foci.
hyzmarca
I'd say that it would only cost essence if the focus is an enchanted peice of cyberware. Just shoving things in doesn't cost essence (see cranial bomb).

However, the only advantage it would provide is an inability to drop the focus without cutting yourslf open. It would be just as vulnerable to Astral attacks when active. If you still use grounding then the magician in question will be chunky sausa when a fireball appears inside of him one day.
Platinum
This makes me pine for the old grounding rules. Also this could restrict their travel, at least legitamate travel. They happen to have mages and spirits at the airport that look for this stuff.
Dog
It's been done. Harlequin: Jane Foster.
Pendaric
Unless linked up to the nervous system or structural invasive, as observed, then no essence loss.
The material used in the foci itself however may prove vital, there is a very limited selection of materials that can reside in the (meta-) human body without coursing upset. Sterilized glass, surgical grade stainless steel, pure gold and some plastics. Am sure there's some I've missed but for point of argument, highly processed material.
So due to increased enchanting difficulties an increased expensive perhaps?
Brahm
Could the focus not be made of regular materials and then sealed in a mundane flesh-friendly case?
Pendaric
No, sadly flesh contact is needed. wink.gif
Brahm
QUOTE (Pendaric @ Jan 31 2006, 06:08 PM)
No, sadly flesh contact is needed. wink.gif

Unless you have house ruled it differently it can be in a pocket or a pouch.
Dawnshadow
QUOTE (Brahm)
Could the focus not be made of regular materials and then sealed in a mundane flesh-friendly case?

Well.. there's the possibility of some bioware.. internal pouch with no external opening. Bond the focus, grow the skin pouch around it, and implant the skin pouch..
Pendaric
QUOTE (Brahm @ Jan 31 2006, 06:16 PM)
QUOTE (Pendaric @ Jan 31 2006, 06:08 PM)
No, sadly flesh contact is needed. wink.gif

Unless you have house ruled it differently it can be in a pocket or a pouch.


Purely a dramatic style habit, though perhapes a proviso to stop the backpack of foci ever occurring. *shudder*

So the only limit then would be size, money and were it is implanted.
There is always the essence loss from the surgery as a last ditch control, scrapping the bottom I fear. frown.gif
Brahm
QUOTE (Dawnshadow)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Jan 31 2006, 06:04 PM)
Could the focus not be made of regular materials and then sealed in a mundane flesh-friendly case?

Well.. there's the possibility of some bioware.. internal pouch with no external opening. Bond the focus, grow the skin pouch around it, and implant the skin pouch..

Deepest bellybutton EVAR!
Brahm
QUOTE (Pendaric)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Jan 31 2006, 06:16 PM)
QUOTE (Pendaric @ Jan 31 2006, 06:08 PM)
No, sadly flesh contact is needed. wink.gif

Unless you have house ruled it differently it can be in a pocket or a pouch.


Purely a dramatic style habit, though perhapes a proviso to stop the backpack of foci ever occurring. *shudder*

So the only limit then would be size, money and were it is implanted.
There is always the essence loss from the surgery as a last ditch control, scrapping the bottom I fear. frown.gif

Perhaps you have not come across the Focus Addiction rules? Or in SR4 the simple limit of Magic number of foci bonded?
Pendaric
My PC mage has heard of these legends about magicians having more than TWO? foci? Que evil ref laughter.
Seriously I am concentrating on the thread question and ways to curtail this choice and over come such curtailing by the PC, while maintaining realism.

Subdermal insertion, easily located, little risk of serious scaring/essence loss.
Deep penatration into the thoratic cavity or under major muscle groups, higher chance of scaring/complications and essence loss.
Repeat as applicable?

Edit: Is it me or has this thread come up before? Accessing Archive...
Foreigner
QUOTE (Platinum @ Jan 31 2006, 04:19 PM)
Also this could restrict their travel, at least legitimate travel.

(Edited by Yours Truly)

Platinum:

There are at least two nonferrous (no iron) and/or non-magnetic metals currently used in medical implants:

platinum and titanium.

Both are chemically inert--that is, they don't cause a reaction with the body's immune system-- as well as being highly resistent to corrosion (an important consideration, as the human body normally contains several corrosive compounds, ranging from salt water (in the tissues) to hydrochloric acid (in the stomach)).

A 90% platinum/10% iridium-alloy pellet (iridium is another member of the same metallic family as platinum), was used in the cane/umbrella gun developed by KGB weapons experts in the 1970s. Georgi Markov was killed in London in 1978 by an assassin using such a weapon. Attacked on September 7th, he was dead either three or four days later, depending upon the source of the information.

The KGB developed the weapon at the request of the Bulgarian Secret Police, who had no such weapons. I believe that it was operated either by compressed carbon-dioxide gas, or by spring pressure.

The tip of the umbrella/cane had a concealed injector mechanism, with a retractable large-caliber needle. The resulting wound was about the size of a pinhead. Markov noticed a small spot of blood on his jeans, but thought it was only because the man who supposedly poked him with the umbrella was being clumsy.

The pellet, which was barely visible to the unaided human eye--it was described as being 1.52 millimeters in diameter-- had two small holes in it, and contained a concentrated dose of the poisonous compound ricin--a toxin found in the castor bean plant (ricinus communus), and one of the deadliest poisons found in nature. It has been estimated that a dose of as little as two-tenths of one milligram of concentrated ricin is lethal to humans.

At the time, ricin was virtually untraceable. (The symptoms of ricin poisoning in humans are as follows: weakness, fever, cough, and pulmonary edema (fluid in, or swelling of, the lungs) within the first 18 to 24 hours following ingestion or inhalation, followed by acute respiratory distress and death from hypoxemia (low blood oxygen content) within 36 to 72 hours.) The victims of the Bulgarian assassins appeared to die suddenly of cardiorespiratory arrest, as a consequence of a severe case of the 24-hour 'flu, or sometimes from food poisoning.

The pellets were so small that they were only discovered at autopsy. The wound produced by the weapon resembled an inflamed or infected insect bite.
hyzmarca
Is it perverted to consider weapon focus bone lacing for an unarmed adept?
Platinum
QUOTE (Foreigner @ Feb 1 2006, 12:05 AM)
QUOTE (Platinum @ Jan 31 2006, 04:19 PM)
Also this could restrict their travel, at least legitimate travel.

(Edited by Yours Truly)

Platinum:

There are at least two nonferrous (no iron) and/or non-magnetic metals currently used in medical implants:

platinum and titanium.

Both are chemically inert--that is, they don't cause a reaction with the body's immune system-- as well as being highly resistent to corrosion (an important consideration, as the human body normally contains several corrosive compounds, ranging from salt water (in the tissues) to hydrochloric acid (in the stomach)).

....


Actually, what I meant is that the airline will probably not like you taking your power focus with you on a flight. It is one thing to transport it in a hermetically sealed container, the other is ready access to it. You think there are problems now with homeland security, wait till magical terrorists start appearing.

AirLine security officer: Uhm, please explain to me why your side is glowing?

Runner: uhm, well I had this surgically implanted just in case I lost it.

AirLine security officer: Air regulations stipulate that magic is prohibited within the airport and in the airplain. So your focus is not necessary, sir. Would you like one of our parametics to help you remove it, so you can board this flight?

Runner: What if I just promise not to use it?

AirLine security officer: Well then that seems perfectly legitamate to me, let me make sure your fingers are not crossed. Ok then, you are free to board the flight.
eidolon
They just did a ricin crime on one of the CSIs. Pretty cool.
emo samurai
QUOTE
Is it perverted to consider weapon focus bone lacing for an unarmed adept?


No, but it IS essence-reducing. Having a cross/disk just under your skin is one thing; removing your muscles temporarily and putting threaded orihalcum underneath is another.
hyzmarca
I mean perverted in a munchkiny way.

I don't think airports would mind having a powerful mage on board. It can be useful incase a dragon attacks.
Sharaloth
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 31 2006, 08:36 PM)
Is it perverted to consider weapon focus bone lacing for an unarmed adept?

not perverted so much as useless. The bone lacing isn't a weapon, so getting it enchanted as a weapon focus nets you nothing. Even if your GM allowed you to use it for the extra dice, why not just save the essence and get some improved ability and killing hands instead. If you're really wanting that bone lacing, make it an adept or infusion focus.
Platinum
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Feb 1 2006, 04:13 AM)
I don't think airports would mind having a powerful mage on board. It can be useful incase a dragon attacks.

Then why would they be worried about a shadowrunner with an assault rifle or panther assault cannon in his carry on?
Other than being somewhat useless with bullets bouncing off the hide of the dragon, but other than that, what's the problem?

There would be significant investment into mage security. I mean who holds a plane hostage or controls the thoughts of the pilot to hi-jack it to another destination?

Doesn't this seem like a risk? what would a fireball do to the engine if you have a suicide terrorist, or one that can blow a hole open in the side, and levitate to safety? Turn to goo on a plane hull?
nick012000
Well, Turn to Goo only works on living things. As for the rest... bound spirits with "kill any mage who starts casting spells" as their commands.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Platinum)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Feb 1 2006, 04:13 AM)
I don't think airports would mind having a powerful mage on board. It can be useful incase a dragon attacks.

Then why would they be worried about a shadowrunner with an assault rifle or panther assault cannon in his carry on?
Other than being somewhat useless with bullets bouncing off the hide of the dragon, but other than that, what's the problem?

There would be significant investment into mage security. I mean who holds a plane hostage or controls the thoughts of the pilot to hi-jack it to another destination?

Doesn't this seem like a risk? what would a fireball do to the engine if you have a suicide terrorist, or one that can blow a hole open in the side, and levitate to safety? Turn to goo on a plane hull?

You can't use guns against an attacking dragon without making a giant hole in the side of the plane. It isn't good to make giant holes in a pressurized metal tube that is hurtling through the air at close to the speed of sound.

The thing about airline security is that it wasn't really meant to stop terrorists before 9/11 (ineffecctive new rules notwithstanding, it still isn't). Airline security serves a twofold purpose. First, it exists to provide a public perception of safety. Wether that extra safety is real or not doesn't actually matter. The fact is that airplanes are safe enough to begin with. Second, airline security exists to stop drunk people from doing stupid things. That is why guns weren't allowed onboard originally. The danger of someone getting drunk and depressurizing the plane with a stray shot is far greater than the danger of a terrorist doing anything at all.

Magicians are good for business because most of hem will be corporate wagemages.

Any percieved danger can be alliviated by completely ineffective but annoying new security procedures.
Krotiez
QUOTE (hyzmarca)

You can't use guns against an attacking dragon without making a giant hole in the side of the plane. It isn't good to make giant holes in a pressurized metal tube that is hurtling through the air at close to the speed of sound.

The thing about airline security is that it wasn't really meant to stop terrorists before 9/11 (ineffecctive new rules notwithstanding, it still isn't). Airline security serves a twofold purpose. First, it exists to provide a public perception of safety. Wether that extra safety is real or not doesn't actually matter. The fact is that airplanes are safe enough to begin with. Second, airline security exists to stop drunk people from doing stupid things. That is why guns weren't allowed onboard originally. The danger of someone getting drunk and depressurizing the plane with a stray shot is far greater than the danger of a terrorist doing anything at all.

Magicians are good for business because most of hem will be corporate wagemages.

Any percieved danger can be alliviated by completely ineffective but annoying new security procedures.

What? Airplanes are already full of holes and another one really isn't going to make that much of a difference. Even at high altitudes unless the aircraft is suffering from severe metal fatigue or major design flaws, another hole isn't going to make that much of a difference.

There was an Hawaii Airlines airplane that ended up losing a good sized chunk of the fuselage and the only casualty was a stewardess whom ended up being sucked out because she wasn't secured in a seat (some information is here.)
Taking a look at this also makes me believe someone is gonna have to be using some serious firepower to cause explosive decompression (not rapid decompression; that can occur if you blow some holes in an aircraft fuselage.)

Unless my mind deceives me, it was also legal to carry firearms aboard aircraft in the United States for a good portion of time.
mintcar
I concider foci to be styled after the standard traditions in almost every case. The more unusual, the more expensive. I don't allow custum foci without justification. I like to think of these things as tacky, over-the-counter new-age stuff, mostly. It makes more sense and gives role-playing oportunities not to provide mages with exactly the style of focus they were looking for. They may have their own take on a tradition, but they still have to put up with mainstream magical industry.

In SR4 you nolonger destroy a character by taking away their toys, because stuff isn't as insanely priced anymore. Some extremely paranoid player might still want a focus implant tough. I'd recommend skin pocket/pouch for that in that case. Unless the character has the money to pay for having a focus made from the raw materials up—every stage of the process plus extra for enchantment of highly processed materials— then pay for surgery.
Platinum
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Feb 1 2006, 02:31 AM)
You can't use guns against an attacking dragon without making a giant hole in the side of the plane. It isn't good to make giant holes in a pressurized metal tube that is hurtling through the air at close to the speed of sound.

The thing about airline security is that it wasn't really meant to stop terrorists before 9/11 (ineffecctive new rules notwithstanding, it still isn't). Airline security serves a twofold purpose. First, it exists to provide a public perception of safety. Wether that extra safety is real or not doesn't actually matter. The fact is that airplanes are safe enough to begin with. Second, airline security exists to stop drunk people from doing stupid things. That is why guns weren't allowed onboard originally. The danger of someone getting drunk and depressurizing the plane with a stray shot is far greater than the danger of a terrorist doing anything at all.

Magicians are good for business because most of hem will be corporate wagemages.

Any percieved danger can be alliviated by completely ineffective but annoying new security procedures.

I agree with you that most of airport security is keeping honest people honest, but that point that I am trying to make is that "Magic" has the same lethal potential as carrying a gun. They outlaw guns on airplanes for various safety reasons. (heck they were using plastic knives on flights for a while) I am hard pressed to think that just any joe mage can get on the plane. I am sure that there are some people that are on the plane, that are permitted to carry guns, therefore by the same logic, I am going to extrapolate that if you are a mage, you have to have the proper paperwork to get on a flight. I know that if I was security, letting someone have a pistol is different then letting them have a shotgun. The focus would be the equivalent to upgrading the pistol to shotgun power (concealability does not apply, since magic doesn't show to the mundane.

If this is an issue, you can always charter. Many corps would probably charter for their rockstar mages.
Pendaric
Mintcar has pointed to the crux of implantation, a pure gold ring is one thing but a thirty centimeter wand is another. The surgeon would have to find places where these items are not going to pierce the skin or muscle while under stress (movement) or itself break, doubly so if within the chest cavity due to large changes of space and vital internal organs.

Taking the case of Miss Frosty (Jane Foster), for the benefit of those who have not read Harlequin,
Ehran the Scribe (yes heavy hitter here) used orichalcum engraved and inlaid in the appropriate mystic symbols in Miss Frost's natural left femur.
Just a tad costly.

It is a grey area the exact nature of the device, a component in an advanced detection spell or a focus of some kind.
However for this thread it is a great example, it does demonstrate what was needed for a long term implantation and that it is possible.

Edit: The last stand by thought, fast moving lead projectiles and internal objects are a bad combination.....
tisoz
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
It would be just as vulnerable to Astral attacks when active. If you still use grounding then the magician in question will be chunky sausa when a fireball appears inside of him one day.

???

How are you detecting it? It would be concealed from view. If anything, the person might have an extra glow to their aura, but since it is so unusual to implant foci, I do not know that one could jump to the conclusion that it was a focus.

How are you targeting the focus without LOS?
Ophis
That and if the foci were off, it wouldn't show anyhue.
Aku
wouldnt you still be able to "see" the focus with an assensing test? you can sense cyberware doing that, and i'd imagine that a foci that glows and is implanted would still "glow through"

Assuming it was active, ofcourse.
Platinum
QUOTE (tisoz @ Feb 1 2006, 11:37 AM)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 31 2006, 01:36 PM)
It would be just as vulnerable to Astral attacks when active.  If you still use grounding then the magician in question will be chunky sausa when a fireball appears inside of him one day.

???

How are you detecting it? It would be concealed from view. If anything, the person might have an extra glow to their aura, but since it is so unusual to implant foci, I do not know that one could jump to the conclusion that it was a focus.

How are you targeting the focus without LOS?

1. if it is on, it radiates power unless you are masking it. Internal or not.
Assensing the aura will reveal it, implanted or not. If you had a small focus in
your clenched fist an astral mage would still be able to assense it, just like a quickened spell being obvious. The nature of the focus would be obvious
on the astral plane. Again you could try and mask it, but an initiated mage will likely be able to discern it.

2. if it is off, there are still electronic sensors at the airport that will detect it.
They have cyberware detection hardware. Yes this is not hardware, I guess you could get around it if the focus was made out of a gemstone or something other than orichalcum.

3. You do not have to actually see the physical item, just its astral signature which is apparent on the astral plane. (just like being able to see cyberware in a body) It is also possible to see spirits that posses people or horror marks. If this was the case, then every mage would implant focii into thier bodies.

QUOTE
That and if the foci were off, it wouldn't show anyhue.

Personally I would rule that it is a grey lump in the middle of the body, when inactive.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (tisoz)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 31 2006, 01:36 PM)
It would be just as vulnerable to Astral attacks when active.  If you still use grounding then the magician in question will be chunky sausa when a fireball appears inside of him one day.

???

How are you detecting it? It would be concealed from view. If anything, the person might have an extra glow to their aura, but since it is so unusual to implant foci, I do not know that one could jump to the conclusion that it was a focus.

How are you targeting the focus without LOS?

Auras are intangible and the focus has an independant astral form whenver it is active. If the magician isn't astrally active but the focus is then it is rather simple to tell the two apart. When the magician is present on astral it opens up a whole new can of worms about hiding one astral form in another but I still say that they would obviously be seperate forms.

LOS would be a problem to a magician with a sustaining focus implanted somewhere he cannot readily see since he has to cast into the focus.
The Stainless Steel Rat
QUOTE (Pendaric @ Jan 31 2006, 06:08 PM)
No, sadly flesh contact is needed. wink.gif

Uh oh.... did I miss something? I though it only had to be in contact with your Aura (which extends several centimeters from the body).

Am I misremembering some old 2nd Ed stuff again?
Pendaric
No, its a stlye habit of my group. The wink was, "courses PC more trouble", you remembered the rule right. I do allow in a pocket, resting on clothes etc but not the foci in backpack *shudder*.
Brahm
What problem do you find with having it in a backpack?
Pendaric
Distance and intent. I would penalise another character for not having their weapon or medkit or maglock pass key to hand. Ergo a focus/i that is packed away should not avoid the intent of the PC, hence they are beyond the aura of the character. Psyco actively for magical purposes if necessary.
Brahm
QUOTE (Pendaric)
Distance and intent. I would penalise another character for not having their weapon or medkit or maglock pass key to hand. Ergo a focus/i that is packed away should not avoid the intent of the PC, hence they are beyond the aura of the character. Psyco actively for magical purposes if necessary.

A traditional weapon you usually have to draw. Very poor comparison I think. So if they put it in the backpack with the intent of using it from there what is the problem? A backpack usually rests on your back when you are carrying it. That is fairly close proximity.

I just don't get the shudder part. It doesn't seem to have any rules effect.
Foreigner
QUOTE (Krotiez @ Feb 1 2006, 03:27 AM)
There was an Hawaii Airlines airplane that ended up losing a good sized chunk of the fuselage and the only casualty was a stewardess whom ended up being sucked out because she wasn't secured in a seat (some information is here.)
Taking a look at this also makes me believe someone is gonna have to be using some serious firepower to cause explosive decompression (not rapid decompression; that can occur if you blow some holes in an aircraft fuselage.)

Unless my mind deceives me, it was also legal to carry firearms aboard aircraft in the United States for a good portion of time.


krotiez:

One SMALL correction:

The stewardess wasn't "sucked out" of the plane; she was BLOWN out.

When a vessel of any kind containing air (or any pressurized gas, for that matter) is punctured, the gas ALWAYS flows from the area of GREATEST pressure (inside the vessel) to the area of LEAST pressure (outside the vessel).

That's why the term "explosive decompression" was coined--because the effect is of similar destructive capability to a bomb, but without the effects of blast, fire, or smoke.

--Foreigner
stevebugge
So I talked to the player involved in a little more depth. The idea came up because we are converting his character from SR3 to SR4 and he had learned the Tattoo Metamagic (Awakenings) and had some magical Tattoos. Basically he was thinking that a Sustaining Focus (or actually one for each effect) embedded under the skin would provide more or less the same effect and would alleviate the need for waiting years for the publishing of the SR4 magic book and hopeing the Tattoo Metamagic still existed. Basically used that way I don't really have a problem with it from a game balance point of view.
Brahm
QUOTE (stevebugge)
So I talked to the player involved in a little more depth. The idea came up because we are converting his character from SR3 to SR4 and he had learned the Tattoo Metamagic (Awakenings) and had some magical Tattoos. Basically he was thinking that a Sustaining Focus (or actually one for each effect) embedded under the skin would provide more or less the same effect and would alleviate the need for waiting years for the publishing of the SR4 magic book and hopeing the Tattoo Metamagic still existed. Basically used that way I don't really have a problem with it from a game balance point of view.

That is an interesting solution he came up with.

Why not just convert the metamagic yourself? I don't have Awakenings myself, that was a second edition book?
Coyote_Moya
I troll buddy of mine named, simply enough, "Gutz" actually had implanted weapon Foci. You see, his extreemly long and nasty spurs were made out of more orchalcum than I could carry with a fork lift. To tell you the truth, active foci are vulnerable but it still takes quite a bit of effort to bust through and most of the time the foci were inactive. He had a great old time with them, especially since he was particularly anti social.

What you have to keep in mind is, does the essence loss of implantation really make sense with a magical focus. You usually end up losing more than you gain. Since G was already pretty much completely burnt out all he could do is percieve astrally and use foci. So that worked out for him.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
I agree with you that most of airport security is keeping honest people honest, but that point that I am trying to make is that "Magic" has the same lethal potential as carrying a gun. They outlaw guns on airplanes for various safety reasons. (heck they were using plastic knives on flights for a while) I am hard pressed to think that just any joe mage can get on the plane. I am sure that there are some people that are on the plane, that are permitted to carry guns, therefore by the same logic, I am going to extrapolate that if you are a mage, you have to have the proper paperwork to get on a flight. I know that if I was security, letting someone have a pistol is different then letting them have a shotgun. The focus would be the equivalent to upgrading the pistol to shotgun power (concealability does not apply, since magic doesn't show to the mundane.


The thing is that magic capable of breaking open a plane is also usable more easily from the ground. Combat spells have a LOS range, a plane is no safer from a magician not on a plane as it is from the magician being on the plane.

As such, no there's no reason to piss off magicians by making them go through extra crap to get on planes.

-Frank
Platinum
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE
I agree with you that most of airport security is keeping honest people honest, but that point that I am trying to make is that "Magic" has the same lethal potential as carrying a gun. They outlaw guns on airplanes for various safety reasons. (heck they were using plastic knives on flights for a while) I am hard pressed to think that just any joe mage can get on the plane. I am sure that there are some people that are on the plane, that are permitted to carry guns, therefore by the same logic, I am going to extrapolate that if you are a mage, you have to have the proper paperwork to get on a flight. I know that if I was security, letting someone have a pistol is different then letting them have a shotgun. The focus would be the equivalent to upgrading the pistol to shotgun power (concealability does not apply, since magic doesn't show to the mundane.


The thing is that magic capable of breaking open a plane is also usable more easily from the ground. Combat spells have a LOS range, a plane is no safer from a magician not on a plane as it is from the magician being on the plane.

As such, no there's no reason to piss off magicians by making them go through extra crap to get on planes.

-Frank

it is easier to hijack a plane if you are on it. Yes, you can use your telescopes to zoom in on a plane and toss a wreck spell from a distance, but if you have levitate, why would you worry anyhow? I am guessing but I would think that people that commit terrorist acts actually like to see the fear that they instill in people, and it does give you much more control over the situation.
Krotiez
QUOTE (Foreigner)
QUOTE (Krotiez @ Feb 1 2006, 03:27 AM)
There was an Hawaii Airlines airplane that ended up losing a good sized chunk of the fuselage and the only casualty was a stewardess whom ended up being sucked out because she wasn't secured in a seat (some information is here.)
Taking a look at this also makes me believe someone is gonna have to be using some serious firepower to cause explosive decompression (not rapid decompression; that can occur if you blow some holes in an aircraft fuselage.)

Unless my mind deceives me, it was also legal to carry firearms aboard aircraft in the United States for a good portion of time.


krotiez:

One SMALL correction:

The stewardess wasn't "sucked out" of the plane; she was BLOWN out.

When a vessel of any kind containing air (or any pressurized gas, for that matter) is punctured, the gas ALWAYS flows from the area of GREATEST pressure (inside the vessel) to the area of LEAST pressure (outside the vessel).

That's why the term "explosive decompression" was coined--because the effect is of similar destructive capability to a bomb, but without the effects of blast, fire, or smoke.

--Foreigner

Ah, thanks for catching that.

I wasn't feeling really well when I posted that, but I should've triple checked.
Platinum
QUOTE
The stewardess wasn't "sucked out" of the plane; she was BLOWN out.


suck/blow. ... it all depends on what side of the air movement you are on.
Both are the movement of air from high pressure to low pressure.
John Campbell
It's worth noting that you can't disarm mages. Taking away their toys may reduce their effectiveness a bit, but unless they've crippled themselves with talisman geasa or the like, it doesn't nullify them.

This leaves you, the airline security director, with two basic choices. You can disallow mages from flying on your airline, or have them mage-masked or burned out or the like. Or you can recognize that, short of those extremes, there's no way to prevent a mage from being a lethal weapon, and only worry about them if they're doing something notably suspicious, like keeping combat spell foci in their carry-on luggage or trying to mind-control the flight attendents.

And I'd submit that in a world where mages are rare and valued for their abilities, the former choice isn't going to fly.
The Stainless Steel Rat
I don't think anyone is going to care if you have a legal, licenced focus on a sinned and registered magician, but there are limits. They won't let you on the plane with F5 power focus, just like they won't let you on with security armor or a PAC.
Coyote_Moya
Whatayagonna do? Ban magic users from airports? Just another reason to take Masking as your first Metamagic ability I guess. The only thing I would do to put this kind of reality into the game is to make it more difficult/expensive for magically active people to get fake SIN's. I am sure that once security knows you are a Mage they are going to keep a much closer eye on you than other people for all the great reasons people have come up with and would scrutinize that characters SIN. Cyber restraints are easy, but I doubt they would even LET someone with an implanted shotgun on a flight, but they are pretty likely to let the professor form the Cal Tech Institute of Thaumatological Studies on.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (The Stainless Steel Rat)
I don't think anyone is going to care if you have a legal, licenced focus on a sinned and registered magician, but there are limits. They won't let you on the plane with F5 power focus, just like they won't let you on with security armor or a PAC.

It's very different however. The Power Focus literally doesn't allow the magician to do anything he couldn't do before. Banning the power foci would be like banning every person who was physically strong enough to pop the windows off - it just isn't going to happen.

Magicians are 1% of the population and have 15% of the money. They are going to resent intrusions on their privacy and aren't going to patronize an airliner that inflicts undo harrassment on magicians. That alone would bring all the air lines into line real quick.

-Frank
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