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Grimtooth
Ok here's the question.

What kind of employment contract would you sign that would not allow you to just up and quit or put in your 2 weeks notice?

Think about it. If i want to leave my job working for megacorp ABC i have to arrange an ILLEGAL extraction. Why did i sign the employment contract in the first place?

Random Thoughts rotate.gif
Jrayjoker
Because your parents did it, and you have an identity within a large group. People like to belong...Also, citizenship is a major plus.
stevebugge
Short answer: M.I.C.E. I'll explain a little later.

With AA and AAA coprs being their own countries they can write their own labor laws, arguably the only reason they don't enforce slave labor is that they need customers and they haven't convinced the non-corp public to accept it. The other side of the argument says they do, they just sugar coat it. By 2070 there are probably a lot of people born in to the culture. Others may sign their soul away for personal gain, be it protection, money, an education etc. Not just anyone is "offered" these contracts, they typically go to individuals showing rare promise in some important field or another, you aren't likely to find a janitor with a lifetime contract, or even a 6 month contract for that matter.

Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
Because your parents did it, and you have an identity within a large group. People like to belong...Also, citizenship is a major plus.

A Corp extraction is the main part of the character story for my wiz kid Hacker Violet (not her real name of course)

The Hacker's Digest really, really condensed version. [re edited]

This all occurred shortly after Crash 2.0

Having been born to two top corp executives at a mid level tech firm (MetaTech) Violet and her family lived in a Corporate village on the outskirts of Boston. While her parents were sent to bring a Seattle branch on line the corp had her stay back at the compound so she could complete her schooling. 6 months later her parents mysteriously disappeared and nothing more was heard of the Seattle operation Consequently, Violet became a ward of the corp at age 14. Being a brilliant child and a wiz at science, computers, and tech, was considered rather valuable in the corp's eyes. Following a series of "treatments" on her (read Implants) the age of 12, her "stock" went up. One of these procedures involved the implantation of a (at the time) prototype Commlink making her Meta Tech's "SOTA child". Being fairly perceptive (and devious), she could see what was happening & didn't like where her life was heading. She also knew very well about the "gift" she had been given and cracked its diagnostic codes to learn how it was designed.

At the age of 16, she began to hit the new and growing wireless matrix behind MetaTech's back. Violet decided she would get back at her evil "Uncle Olaf" (as she called the corp) by finding a willing buyer for the design of the implant (one of the current makers of commercial Commlinks in 2070). After finding an interested party she asked for an extraction and a change of identity as her payment. Needless to say, the company accepted the offer and fulfilled her wish. Now 4 years later, she runs the shadows of Seattle, looking for clues as to the whereabouts of her family.

The full story as written is of course a bit longer, with detailed scenes of her Matrix jaunts, the extraction, & settling in Seattle.
Calvin Hobbes
Bear in mind that the subjects of extractions are usually in sensitive areas. Joe Janitor is not going to be extracted because he could just quit. No one cares. People who need extractions either fear consequences for leaving or are being forcibly extracted (read: kidnapped). Or, in a couple of cases, merely crave the adventure or want to look important enough to be extracted, increasing their perceived job value.

Other reasons you may not be able to quit your job:

1) Extraterritoriality means corporations have the rights to prosecute you like a nation. Which means that you quitting could be considered light to medium treason.

2) Your manager keeps on destroying any record you want to quit because he/she is a jerk.

3) Computer error declares your sensitivity to be higher than it really is.

There's lots of problems that can only be cured by extraction.

stevebugge
OK to explain M.I.C.E. now that I've got a slow moment at the office again. It's an acronym from the intelligence business used to help people remember the 4 commmon methods of turning people to your side.

Money
Ideology
Coercion
Ego

Money is pretty self explanatory with why someone would sign the contract

Ideology would be the people who were born in to it and live and breathe corp culture

Coercion, try to leave and we will kill or imprison you and your family for disloyalty to the company

Ego, there are people who would sign the contract to feel important or needed
SL James
Because the IIRC 13th Amendment to the UCAS Constitution effectively legalizes slavery (oh, the irony!) by creating a system where runaway slaves ... er... I mean runaway slaves can be captured by the UCAS government and repatriated to their home corp to fill out their contract (which I assume is "lifetime" by default). If I understand Corp Download correctly, the Business Recognition Accords then made this the law in every signatory country to the BRA, so you not only have the corps on your ass, but the governments as well (well, except for all those oh-so-special European countries which get to function in spite of not signing the BRA or adhering to only a limited one. And here I thought the era of "Country X is so badass" died off back in 1998).
Brahm
Read Shadows of Asia? Europe doesn't have a lock on badass countries that openly thumb their noses at The Corporate Man and are still able to afford something better than rough leaves and twigs to wipe their butts.
mfb
don't think of it as taking a job you can't walk away from, think of it as what it really is: gaining citizenship in a nation on pretty favorable terms.
SL James
I've flipped through it a couple of times. The first time I laughed my ass off. The second time I almost started to cry. By the third time I had to stop myself from testing out patience of the losers working at B&N by seeing how far it flies when I finally broke down at took a look at Israel. I figured from my spot on the second floor I could throw that f-er into the Starbucks downstairs.

So... No. Not that I particularly care, nor does anyone writing the books anymore apparently give much of a rip about setting consistency.
fistandantilus4.0
Also remember that in the sprawls, the poor are really freaking poor. I can see more than a few seeing a life time contract (well, until retirement) as a good peace of mind. And there are plenty of people that can file letters of reisgnation. Probably like breaking a lease contract, where there's penalties, like fines (or death *shhh*, don't tell) for breaking contract early.
Brahm
QUOTE (SL James)
I've flipped through it a couple of times. The first time I laughed my ass off. The second time I almost started to cry. By the third time I had to stop myself from testing out patience of the losers working at B&N by seeing how far it flies when I finally broke down at took a look at Israel. I figured from my spot on the second floor I could throw that f-er into the Starbucks downstairs.

So... No. Not that I particularly care, nor does anyone writing the books anymore apparently give much of a rip about setting consistency.

So that is a sort of then? rotfl.gif

You never really believed in Santa Claus did you? Well I don't ever remember buying into it either, but I did always play along for the phat loot. Christmas Present Whore is such an ugly label to wear, but it pays well enough that you can have yourself extracted later.

Taking us back onto topic.
Hell Hound
QUOTE (Grimtooth)
Ok here's the question.

What kind of employment contract would you sign that would not allow you to just up and quit or put in your 2 weeks notice?

It may not be precisely the inability to quit that sparks an extraction. I am told that IRL some employment contracts include clauses that state should you leave you cannot go and work for a competitor of your company for a specified period of time (basically until any inside information you have is no longer valuable to a competitor). I know that idea is definately used in Shadowrun.

So here's the deal; You want out of your place of business, maybe the boss is a jerk, maybe the pay isn't good enough, maybe you want to move to another city, maybe someone else is making you an offer you can't refuse. Whatever the reason you want to leave your current employer and you want to start work with another company in the same business. That's the important bit because your contract does not legally permit you to just go and join a competitor.

If you quit and go to another A ranked or lower corp you are in breach of contract and in big trouble, and the company that hires you probably isn't much better off. If however you go and join a megacorp you can hide out in their extraterritorial enclaves and never face charges over that breach of contract. The megacorps organise so many extractions because they can get away with them.
Edward
The most obvious and reasonable cause to be unable to quit is corp. sponsored cyberwear. Lets say I get a job as a corp. rigger and want to quit. If I want to quit before the end of my 5 year contract I need to pay for the surgery to have the corp’s VCR removed, of cause if I have another corp. fund the extraction then they will want a 5 year contract and If I want to quit before the end of that I have to pay them back for the extraction.

Other reasons could include getting a lucrative research grant or high pay packet in a highly sensitive field, it is not uncommon today for contracts to specify a minimum period before you can work for the competition, it is only a small step to require you do not leave until the corporation deems your information of no consequence,

And then there are the unreasonable cases.

Edward
Beaumis
Well, basically you have to consider the world around you with these types of contracts.
Lets say you have the choice between having a secure job, steady income, place to life and guaranteed education and care for your familiy and having a not so secure job, possibly ending pay, having to worry about your kids education and security while retaining your freedom to leave wether you want to leave. Most people will probably pick the former.
And that's today, in SR security is a much larger issue than it is today. So is education.

On top of this comes the fact that areas where extractions happen are the peak of corporate interest. So we are talking about big science. People working in these areas get cyberware possibly magic and lots of expensive toys to work with. You wont trust someone with all that money if he could walk away with it tomorrow. A cranial cyberdeck, or even relativly simple mods such as encephalon and celebral booster are in the hundred thousands. That's on top of pay and all the other costs the research causes. Even today such people are emplyed via very hard contracts that guarantee the interest of the corp is secured.

Heck, the whole extraction thing is how cranial bombs came into beeing. That should pretty much tell you how serious corps are about their high class emplyees. As long as you work for them your every desire will be dealt with to your satisfaction, cross them and you go boom. Thats the hard version of contract for life.

Note: Im dealing in SR3. The badly done vampire rippoff that's SR4 has no part in my life. But even in SR4 the prices for cyberware are high enough to warrant corporate interest.
nezumi
Hell Hound and Edward brought up great reasons.

1) Currently corps oftentimes have clauses saying you cannot legally work in that field for a period of time (generally two years) after leaving the current employer.

2) Corps install a lot of equipment and money into you. Sure, some people wouldn't mind having the datajack removed and their headware memory blanked. But what about the trade secrets they know? If the corporation is paying you $200k annually (plus benies, which are very nice with big corps) to develop a cutting edge product, you'd better believe the contract is pretty solid in regards to the conditions of your termination. And they're paying you extra for that!!

3) Competition is up. Corps can always replace about 80% of their staff with someone of equivalent or better skills. The only problem is that first six months is a little less efficient than it could be with experience. I'm sure, especially with smaller corps, lay-offs are quite common and the Job Security fairy lives in at the North Pole with Santa. So if you are so easily replaced and you're offered a job that says 'we will hire you for the rest of your life (assuming no major screw-ups, and even then, they can just change your place in the corp), invest in you, take care of you, and you make the same commitment towards us,' you take it! It's just like the industrial revolution. You work 15 hour days at $.05 an hour because the alternative is you're out on the street or watching your back for that pink slip.
Brahm
QUOTE (nezumi)
1) Currently corps oftentimes have clauses saying you cannot legally work in that field for a period of time (generally two years) after leaving the current employer.

In North America at least these clauses are all but unenforcable for the vast majority of people. You have to pay the person an ungodly amount of money for their work or the judge will chase you out of court and likely tear a verbal strip out of your lawyer for wasting his time.
Beaumis
I kinda doubt that. Once such a clause is part of a contract that you signed there isnt that much a judge can do unless the contract breaks higher ranking law. Im not exactly versed in US law, but im pretty sure there are ways to make this solid legally.

In the meantime, not the US, but still an example:
http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9333
nezumi
Funny, I've been told at job interviews (for normal pay, in the $60-70k range) that the employment clause includes not working for a competitor in that particular field for a period of two years. They didn't seem to be concerned about lawyers. Another friend just started a new business after waiting for his two years to be up. Even if this contract isn't legal (and I question that), it certainly seems to be strong enough that people obey it.
Brahm
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 3 2006, 11:07 AM)
Funny, I've been told at job interviews (for normal pay, in the $60-70k range) that the employment clause includes not working for a competitor in that particular field for a period of two years.  They didn't seem to be concerned about lawyers.  Another friend just started a new business after waiting for his two years to be up.  Even if this contract isn't legal (and I question that), it certainly seems to be strong enough that people obey it.

There are lots of employers that will say that. Unless you normally couldn't make anywhere close to that much elsewhere it is effectively unenforcable at $70k/year to keep you from working for a competitor. They have to pay something that covers the loss of your livelihood for the noncompete clause. We own your brain contracts have a long history of being drawn up in unenforcable ways.

It doesn't make the whole contract illegal. It is just that parts of it are trumped by law.

Starting a new business yourself can be a stickier matter. Even if you don't brain fart and sign a contract with those stipulations, a legal bullying tactic is sometimes to sue. But it is doomed in the end to only accomplish draining both sides of huge amounts of money unless the new business owner has a crappy lawyer, didn't cover their butt, or did something particularly weaselish and got caught.
Beaumis
QUOTE
But it is doomed in the end to only accomplish draining both sides of huge amounts of money unless the new business owner has a crappy lawyer, didn't cover their butt, or did something particularly weaselish and got caught.
And this is probably the root of the problem. Even if you win in front of the court and your costs are covered by the loosing side (not sure how this is in the US, but it's like that where I live) you still have to spend the money as long as the lawsuit is running.
Larger companies can easily afford spending the money, not few of them pay annual fees to their lawyers anyway, most people simply cant. So even if you win in the end, most people will be bankrupt before that end is visible. Hence they settle out of court.

I'll have to agree with Brahm here. The fact that something is in a contract doesnt necessarily mean its legal or enforcable.
stevebugge
There is not a set statute in the US for who pays the cost of a Lawsuit, it's usually decided as part of the resolution of the suit itself. This gives rise to a great deal of fairly longshot lawsuits. Due to the inertia of the US political system (and by extension the UCAS Political system) this is unlikely to have changed in 2070 Seattle. How is this relevant? Lawfirms can make good Johnsons. So the Megacorp employee isn't going to be able to sue their way out of a contract (because extraterritoriality means that the Corps law governs the contract) but rich corps make great targets for law firms, and a little "evidence" of wrongdoing can entice a lucrative settlement.
Beaumis
Thanks for clearing that up for me.

QUOTE
So the Megacorp employee isn't going to be able to sue their way out of a contract (because extraterritoriality means that the Corps law governs the contract) but rich corps make great targets for law firms, and a little "evidence" of wrongdoing can entice a lucrative settlement.
Always assuming of course you live to actually see a payment. With corps beeing ready to break to the law on pretty much every legal regulation ever invented, I somewhat doubt they'd step back from silencing some wannabe-rich.by-suing-the-corps.

Going up against anything big enough to have extrateritoriality without something equally big behind yourself is suicide. The corps have their own court, they make the rules.
And if anything leads back the corp to make it look bad, some random person takes the fall. In some written confession that's found after his "suicide".
stevebugge
I'm sure it's easier for the Law Firm Johnson if you plant something for them to find in discovery and don't live to tell about it wink.gif

Corps get sued all the time, most of the suits are dismissed as being without merit, a lot more are settled for relatively small sums. Very few go to trial, and even fewer make news. The big corps for the most part probably don't waste a lot of assets attacking the person bringing the Lawsuit, it's a matter of scale a big payoff to an individual is pocket change to a Corp. If the Individual agrees to drop their suit and clam up for half to two thirds of what it would cost to have them eliminated quietly, they probably just pay them.
Beaumis
That's what the fall guy is for.

Honestly, over the years there was so much dirt uncovered about the corps it aint even true and nothing bad happened.

For instance. Ares initiated a military operation on national grounds (meaning not even corp extratoriality helps them) to attack a nest of spirits, which resulted in a massive breakout that led to the quarantine on the city. They even detonated a nukelear warhead *within* the confines of the city. None knows how many casualities that little ops did cost, but Ares wasnt even charged with anything. At the least, every smalltime lawyer would have them for para-military presence and action within national territory. Worse actually, within the jurisdiction of another corp (Eagle security services, Chicagos version of Lone Star).
They werent charged in front of a national court for anything.
They werent charged in front of the corp court for anything.
They werent sued by any single person for this.

If a corp can get through with this, I doubt a bit of dirt about an extraction is going to harm a corp. And if there was the slightest chance it might ---> Fall guy. Leadership knew nothing.

"We are shocked by this news and will, of course, make immediate inquires in order to find those responsible and bring them to justice. In the mean time, we would like to advice the media to refrain from jumping to conclusions. At no time did anyone in the organisation of <corp> know of the illegality of this particular employment. We will find the perpetrator, and would like to anounce the forming of a new divison of internal data managment security in order to enure this does not happen again. bla bla bla propaganda bla lies bla bla, thanks for your attentions. We'll sue yours ass into debtors prison if you make any "false" aligations."

Thats the way it is. And quite honestly, it's not all bad. If it was any different, there wasnt any need for runners. nyahnyah.gif
Platinum
QUOTE (Beaumis)
Thanks for clearing that up for me.

QUOTE
So the Megacorp employee isn't going to be able to sue their way out of a contract (because extraterritoriality means that the Corps law governs the contract) but rich corps make great targets for law firms, and a little "evidence" of wrongdoing can entice a lucrative settlement.
Always assuming of course you live to actually see a payment. With corps beeing ready to break to the law on pretty much every legal regulation ever invented, I somewhat doubt they'd step back from silencing some wannabe-rich.by-suing-the-corps.

Going up against anything big enough to have extrateritoriality without something equally big behind yourself is suicide. The corps have their own court, they make the rules.
And if anything leads back the corp to make it look bad, some random person takes the fall. In some written confession that's found after his "suicide".

My friend was going through a lawsuit when he left one company and went to another. he is not allowed to bring his client list with him, but he was still being sued rather aggressively and harassed as well. Then his new employer put out all the funds for the legal team, and went to the old employer and said back off or they will hire the rest of their staff and put them out of business. the lesson here is to make sure you leave to someone that can help you if you are sued. One of the things about extra-territorality is that you have to be under their juristiction, to be under their laws. If there is a dispute between corps, it goes to an arbitrator or at worst corporate court. Extractions are part of the business, and so is suing each other. It is just another stall tactic to try and get some advantage as well as good PR.
stevebugge
QUOTE (Beaumis)
If a corp can get through with this, I doubt a bit of dirt about an extraction is going to harm a corp. And if there was the slightest chance it might ---> Fall guy. Leadership knew nothing.

Ok I think I see where we are missing each other's points. You are absolutely right that there is now ay to sue over an extraction.

I was simply pointing out that the Litigation Industry is another one that can make use of runners to make a dirty NuYen or two.
khazad
The original question:

QUOTE
Ok here's the question.

What kind of employment contract would you sign that would not allow you to just up and quit or put in your 2 weeks notice?

Think about it. If i want to leave my job working for megacorp ABC i have to arrange an ILLEGAL extraction. Why did i sign the employment contract in the first place?



Couple things to think about. First of all, in the SR universe, MegaCorps essentially have the clout of a modern/current Country. They're not really a business as you and I recognize them. Thus, when you're discussing extracting an important scientist (as an example) from lets say Fuchi-Europe, it would be similar to the USA deciding to extract one of Russia's top scientists. So at that point it becomes less about what contract the scientist might have signed, and more about a MegaCorp that is essentially nations in its own right deciding to steal someone from what they view as an opposing MegaCorp.

Second, depending on the field you work in and how important you are to the field, do you really think that a 'contract' means anything? If you're one of Ares top research/designers in the field of military hardware, they're not going to let you go ANYWHERE - it doesn't matter what your contract might say. And who's going to stop them - the UCAS government? Uh-uh. Ares has essentially the same rights as a foreign country, meaning there isn't drek UCAS can do about it.

And finally, keep in mind that the people that are most likely to be the target of an extraction are the important minds/scientists/vips - these are the people that were probably enticed to join the 'Corp with rather prodigious salaries, breathtaking perks, and all the wining and dining it took. "We'd like to hire you to join our R&D department. The contract is long term, so you'll have guaranteed employment (read lifetime), the pay is well above the industry standard, we'll provide you with an excellent apartment at no cost to you, a company car, and an extremely generous health insurance package. Just sign on the line here." That kind of offer is probably going to tempt more people than you might think.

The bottom line to remember is that "illegal" is irrelevant to MegaCorps. So are contracts. Once you're employed, you're THEIRS - and there isn't drek-all you can do about it. (At least, that's what they want you to think. For the paltry sum of 200k Nuyen plus expenses, I'm sure we can find a way to get you where you want to go.)

-Dwarf
Beaumis
QUOTE
I was simply pointing out that the Litigation Industry is another one that can make use of runners to make a dirty NuYen or two.
Ah, sorry bout that misunderstanding. wink.gif

QUOTE
And finally, keep in mind that the people that are most likely to be the target of an extraction are the important minds/scientists/vips - these are the people that were probably enticed to join the 'Corp with rather prodigious salaries, breathtaking perks, and all the wining and dining it took. "We'd like to hire you to join our R&D department. The contract is long term, so you'll have guaranteed employment (read lifetime), the pay is well above the industry standard, we'll provide you with an excellent apartment at no cost to you, a company car, and an extremely generous health insurance package. Just sign on the line here." That kind of offer is probably going to tempt more people than you might think.

One might add that most extraction situations take place with some form of pressure involved. That romantic "getting kidnapped to join a new employer" is rather rare. The corps know what they have with their people and treat the important ones well enough to make sure they *want* to stay on board.
The few ones that want to go by themselves usually found themself in a unforseen situation that they saw no way of squaring with their current employer. Either that or they want to change their job description and cant at their current emplyer.

In fact, most people wouldnt want to be extracted because that means leaving behind a lot. Family, friends, social enviroment, Identity and all that. We're talking high class scientists usually. To them, their name is more then just identification. It's the sum of their scientific acomplishments. Giving that up alone would require a very serious reason.
SL James
QUOTE (Brahm @ Feb 3 2006, 12:22 AM)
QUOTE (SL James @ Feb 2 2006, 11:50 PM)
I've flipped through it a couple of times. The first time I laughed my ass off. The second time I almost started to cry. By the third time I had to stop myself from testing out patience of the losers working at B&N by seeing how far it flies when I finally broke down at took a look at Israel. I figured from my spot on the second floor I could throw that f-er into the Starbucks downstairs.

So... No. Not that I particularly care, nor does anyone writing the books anymore apparently give much of a rip about setting consistency.

So that is a sort of then? rotfl.gif

If you call "spending equal time reading it as figuring out under what conditions I could fling it out of the store and into the police substation around the corner" sort of, then yes, sort of. And it probably would do it, too. I've gotten my sourcebooks to fly across the house, no problem. To do the above would require only two things: an open door, and the right wind direction (since it's always windy as a mofo this time of year).
Ryu
You sign the contract because it is superior to other work you can get - why does not matter.

Now you want to leave - for whatever reason - but may not.


In order for an extraction to be necessary, you have to be unable to simply walk. You have to disappear afterwards, so changeing identity is par for the course.

You might need/prefer professional help if
- you where not able to secure new employment before
- you need several family members disappearing at the same time
- you want to take some/all of your assets with you

The runners might be needed to:
- provide a place of hiding
- extract uninformed family members
- "steal" assets
- provide access to the shadow community (fencing assets like corp scrip, new SINs)
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