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Deadjester
I was talking to a friend about runs in a corp and it would be interesting to have made a super powered grease gun on a mini tri-pod with a sensor.

If your run goes bad, just drop that in a corridor and run like hell, when the troops come running in behind ya, it will sense them and start shooting grease all over the floor.

Not leathel but sure to piss off security as well as slow them down.
Drace
Now just imagine that its a fire elemental chasing you, or a runner with a sick sense of humour ignites it lol.

MK Ultra
why not just use chemical granades with slipspray ore something, way easier on the cred balance.
Silo
Yeah...the auto sensing feature seems to categorically increase the nuyen of the device. Not in a way that would make many want to leave it behind.

A spray device would probably work best...like a roach bomb. Flip the top, toss on the ground, and leave the area.
Taki
Make a simple adaption of something already existing :

Grease proximity mine !
Hasaku
Why wait for someone to show up before spreading the grease? Just use a spray bomb and be done with it.
PBTHHHHT
Aye, remember KISS, Keep it Simple, Stupid! biggrin.gif
Taki
QUOTE (Hasaku)
Why wait for someone to show up before spreading the grease? Just use a spray bomb and be done with it.

Because if someone see grease on the floor, he will decelarate and go on walking.
But if someone run in a corridor and sudently a splash paint the floor with slipery oil ....
runefire32
QUOTE (Taki)
QUOTE (Hasaku @ Feb 5 2006, 10:59 PM)
Why wait for someone to show up before spreading the grease? Just use a spray bomb and be done with it.

Because if someone see grease on the floor, he will decelarate and go on walking.
But if someone run in a corridor and sudently a splash paint the floor with slipery oil ....

But doesn't that still acomplish the job of slowing them down as well? Throw a coupld of them in a row while you're running....they have to walk through that large area or go around. Mission of slowing them down accomplished...
Silo
QUOTE (runefire32)
QUOTE (Taki @ Feb 6 2006, 09:43 AM)
QUOTE (Hasaku @ Feb 5 2006, 10:59 PM)
Why wait for someone to show up before spreading the grease? Just use a spray bomb and be done with it.

Because if someone see grease on the floor, he will decelarate and go on walking.
But if someone run in a corridor and sudently a splash paint the floor with slipery oil ....

But doesn't that still acomplish the job of slowing them down as well? Throw a coupld of them in a row while you're running....they have to walk through that large area or go around. Mission of slowing them down accomplished...

but you don't get the humorous disply of the corp guards falling and sliding on their arses.

i'm a fan of grenades, personally.
Azralon
QUOTE (Taki)
Because if someone see grease on the floor, he will decelarate and go on walking.

Ya know, Improved Invisibility works on inanimate objects, too.
Serbitar
Monowire does the job, too. Permanently slowing them down.
Jaid
Monowire takes time to set up though.

i have to say the normal grenade sounds like the best idea to me.

possibly mix it up with a few glue grenades too so they aren't sure if they need to go across slowly (grease, not to slip) or go across it fast (glue, your momentum will help you tear away from it).

either way, if you use standard chemical grenades, the AOE is large enough that it's gonna fill pretty much any normal hallway.
Serbitar
and combine them with smoke grenades/flashpacks
neko128
QUOTE (Jaid)
Monowire takes time to set up though.

i have to say the normal grenade sounds like the best idea to me.

possibly mix it up with a few glue grenades too so they aren't sure if they need to go across slowly (grease, not to slip) or go across it fast (glue, your momentum will help you tear away from it).

either way, if you use standard chemical grenades, the AOE is large enough that it's gonna fill pretty much any normal hallway.

Small monowire spool. Counterweight has universal adhesive (read: superglue), as does back of reel. Come around blind corner in corridor; remove adhesive-saving backing from counterweight, stick to wall; remove adhesive-saving backing from back of reel, pull across corridor, stick to opposite wall. Should take about 5 seconds, possibly including an Agility test to avoid sticking the reel to your fingers once the backing is off, and should be very close in cost to a monowire whip.

Or better yet, get a custom-built variant on a grapple gun; stick the reel to a wall, arm it, and have it shoot its OWN monowire across the corridor and automatically tension it while you're beating feet. Should take all of 2 seconds - simple action to prepare for adhesion (pull off backing), simple action to attach to wall.

As for the grenades... Give them a dumb commlink (in hidden mode), give them a really simple program. Deploy them in pairs (linked). Set them so, after they're armed, if an active PAN approaches within X meters, they go off; range determined by triangulation. Since everything's wireless by default anyway, you can argue this is a REALLY simple (read: software) mod of a standard off-the-shelf grease grenade.

In fact, with the relatively impressive intelligence of SRun-level gear's internal commlinks, just tell them "automatically link into a hidden PAN with any identical friendly grenades inside your (rather small) signal radius; and then, triangulating the range of any detectable wireless emissions, explode if any non-friendly one comes within X meters." Not complex instructions.

And there's always the standby; leave a wireless camera with them, and trigger them remotely when YOU see someone approaching.

Ahh, the joys of high-tech role playing games.
neko128
Ooooo! Wait! Better yet! How about a monowire bolo pop-up mine? Set it for whatever kind of proximity trigger you want (network triangulation, motion detection, air pressure change - and if you think that doesn't work you're kidding yourself, visual identification, whatever); then, when it goes off, it pops up to whatever height you want, and uses small explosive charges (shotgun-shell size) to eject 6 counter-weights, each on one end of one of three small monowire bolos. They then whip around in an enclosed space, causing general mayhem and probably slowing down whoever's nearby.

Even better, make the counterweights bouncy. Think superballs of doom in an enclosed space. I mean, they'd get tangled, but only after having gotten to a wall and back again and through whatever's in the way...

Oooo, I like this idea...
Silo
QUOTE (neko128)
Ooooo! Wait! Better yet! How about a monowire bolo pop-up mine? Set it for whatever kind of proximity trigger you want (network triangulation, motion detection, air pressure change - and if you think that doesn't work you're kidding yourself, visual identification, whatever); then, when it goes off, it pops up to whatever height you want, and uses small explosive charges (shotgun-shell size) to eject 6 counter-weights, each on one end of one of three small monowire bolos. They then whip around in an enclosed space, causing general mayhem and probably slowing down whoever's nearby.

Even better, make the counterweights bouncy. Think superballs of doom in an enclosed space. I mean, they'd get tangled, but only after having gotten to a wall and back again and through whatever's in the way...

Oooo, I like this idea...

A new level of evilness has arisen. I like it.
Azralon
QUOTE (neko128)
Even better, make the counterweights bouncy. Think superballs of doom in an enclosed space. I mean, they'd get tangled, but only after having gotten to a wall and back again and through whatever's in the way...

The bouncy mono-bolos get my vote.
neko128
And to combine the ideas... How about a monowire maze grenade?

Take a grenade-sized object. Install in it... Say, 10 3-meter spools of monowire, with a small explosively-propelled dart on it (think mini grapple gun, or small adhesive anchor). When it detonates, it simple shoots the darts out in every direction, and then tensions the mono-wires. You could set it so that every wire has as close as possible to an equal length (thus, the grenade would be suspended in mid-air) or just to equalize tension in its firing position (grenade would remain near the ground) or to intentionally pull it upwards (hide it by the ceiling)... Or say that 1/3 the grenades in a small group do each of those. Then, if you REALLY want to upset people, toss a few of these behind you; it'd create a nice little maze of mono-wires, like a web. I think it'd actually be less effective if it went off in the middle of a group of people (though it wouldn't be terribly pleasant having a monowire anchor adhere to or embed itself in your armor), but it'd certainly slow them down while they had to demolish the web. But if a cluster of these went off just as people were coming around a corner...

If you want to get fancy, how about chain monowire anchors? The main device shoots out... Say, four anchors, slightly larger than before. When they hit, each sends out two MORE from that point of impact. The first-stage anchors would have to be significantly larger to accomodate the spools of mono-wire...

Or, how about a modification of the bolo idea; instead of super-balls, the anchors are adhesive. So instead of a web all centered on the grenade, you get a set of monowire lines at random heights and angles across the entire hallway.

Oh, wow. When I get this campaign off the ground, my runners are going to learn to hate me.
PBTHHHHT
Now set off a grease grenade before the monowire maze grenade... watch them slide into the wires...
Austere Emancipator
The problem with monowire is that it doesn't make sense. Thus if you decide to create new ordnance based on it, it is impossible to rebuke you with logic. So I won't even try.
stevebugge
QUOTE (neko128)
And to combine the ideas... How about a monowire maze grenade?

Take a grenade-sized object. Install in it... Say, 10 3-meter spools of monowire, with a small explosively-propelled dart on it (think mini grapple gun, or small adhesive anchor). When it detonates, it simple shoots the darts out in every direction, and then tensions the mono-wires. You could set it so that every wire has as close as possible to an equal length (thus, the grenade would be suspended in mid-air) or just to equalize tension in its firing position (grenade would remain near the ground) or to intentionally pull it upwards (hide it by the ceiling)... Or say that 1/3 the grenades in a small group do each of those. Then, if you REALLY want to upset people, toss a few of these behind you; it'd create a nice little maze of mono-wires, like a web. I think it'd actually be less effective if it went off in the middle of a group of people (though it wouldn't be terribly pleasant having a monowire anchor adhere to or embed itself in your armor), but it'd certainly slow them down while they had to demolish the web. But if a cluster of these went off just as people were coming around a corner...

If you want to get fancy, how about chain monowire anchors? The main device shoots out... Say, four anchors, slightly larger than before. When they hit, each sends out two MORE from that point of impact. The first-stage anchors would have to be significantly larger to accomodate the spools of mono-wire...

Or, how about a modification of the bolo idea; instead of super-balls, the anchors are adhesive. So instead of a web all centered on the grenade, you get a set of monowire lines at random heights and angles across the entire hallway.

Oh, wow. When I get this campaign off the ground, my runners are going to learn to hate me.

How much would one of these cost?
runefire32
QUOTE (stevebugge)
How much would one of these cost?

As the saying goes...

If you have to ask, you don't have enough...
Azralon
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT)
Now set off a grease grenade before the monowire maze grenade... watch them slide into the wires...

Yeeeeah.... at this point you're definitely venturing into the Rube Goldberg school of ordinance. Conventional grenades would be more reliable and less difficult to deal with. smile.gif
stevebugge
QUOTE (runefire32)
QUOTE (stevebugge @ Feb 6 2006, 01:23 PM)
How much would one of these cost?

As the saying goes...

If you have to ask, you don't have enough...

That was my thinking, it costs too much to make it a truly useful weapon (however nasty it sounds)

I like the grease or spray lubricant idea, and that can be done cheaply. One aerosol of cooking spray plus one 6 inch piece of tape to hold down the spray cap and voila you've got a grease bomb.
neko128
QUOTE (stevebugge)
QUOTE (runefire32 @ Feb 6 2006, 10:36 AM)
QUOTE (stevebugge @ Feb 6 2006, 01:23 PM)
How much would one of these cost?

As the saying goes...

If you have to ask, you don't have enough...

That was my thinking, it costs too much to make it a truly useful weapon (however nasty it sounds)

I like the grease or spray lubricant idea, and that can be done cheaply. One aerosol of cooking spray plus one 6 inch piece of tape to hold down the spray cap and voila you've got a grease bomb.

Oh, I agree it's probably too expensive to be really efficient... But the joy you get out of it should make up for that. nyahnyah.gif
Azralon
I want "smart caltrops."

While inactive, they're little thin flat X's. You spread them out over a chokepoint that you plan on using yourself as well as securing against the enemy. When dropped in grass, they'd be difficult to see.

When sent a wireless trigger command, the smart materials pop them out from a flat X into the traditional 3d four-pointed pyramid of ouchiness. Another command would collapse them, allowing friendlies to run across safely.

I'd also be keen on them containing stealth RFID tags.
neko128
QUOTE (runefire32)
QUOTE (stevebugge @ Feb 6 2006, 01:23 PM)
How much would one of these cost?

As the saying goes...

If you have to ask, you don't have enough...

Well, a monofilament whip is 3k nY, and is probably about the right length for one strand in a mono-maze grenade. So call it 10 strands, and that's 30k. Take into account the fact it's using 10 modified miniature grapple guns (500 nY for a standard) and needs a basic grenade shell... Call it 35,000 nY each by the SR4 book? Maybe 30k mass-produced?
Serbitar
Monowire is much cheaper than a monowhip (dont ask me why, at least that was the case in SR3).
stevebugge
QUOTE (Azralon)
I want "smart caltrops."

While inactive, they're little thin flat X's. You spread them out over a chokepoint that you plan on using yourself as well as securing against the enemy. When dropped in grass, they'd be difficult to see.

When sent a wireless trigger command, the smart materials pop them out from a flat X into the traditional 3d four-pointed pyramid of ouchiness. Another command would collapse them, allowing friendlies to run across safely.

I'd also be keen on them containing stealth RFID tags.

This actually sound pretty workable. Use a smart material that changes shape with the presence of an electric current, and RFID tag, and a simple switch. If the RFID was also a tracking tag you cound use these to track anything they stuck in to. Of course the price might be a bit high for something you would scatter around the yard, but then again I suppose it depends on what you are protecting.
Hasaku
QUOTE
Or better yet, get a custom-built variant on a grapple gun; stick the reel to a wall, arm it, and have it shoot its OWN monowire across the corridor and automatically tension it while you're beating feet. Should take all of 2 seconds - simple action to prepare for adhesion (pull off backing), simple action to attach to wall.


Funny, I've proposed this exact device numerous times.
Deadjester
Hmmm what might be interesting is leave little boxes on the ground with a CO2 cartridge in them.

When security runs down the hall towards your position send a signal and you instantly have these garish blowup love dolls with heavy coats of lipstick and wild hair pop up with industrial glue on their hands and they stick to security as they run into them.

As the security people get stuck to the dolls trying to get by them, have their own security cameras take pictures and post them on the web.

The RED SAMURAI, RENRAKU's Finest and their dates.... Story at 11:00...
eidolon
That's pretty damn funny.
Silo
QUOTE (stevebugge)
QUOTE (runefire32 @ Feb 6 2006, 10:36 AM)
QUOTE (stevebugge @ Feb 6 2006, 01:23 PM)
How much would one of these cost?

As the saying goes...

If you have to ask, you don't have enough...

That was my thinking, it costs too much to make it a truly useful weapon (however nasty it sounds)

I like the grease or spray lubricant idea, and that can be done cheaply. One aerosol of cooking spray plus one 6 inch piece of tape to hold down the spray cap and voila you've got a grease bomb.

Would this be the Improvised Lubricants skill?
Cold-Dragon
Hmmm, borrowing on the dancing caltrops, you could also throw them at people with a timer or something, double-sticking them when it goes off.

Or other silly, yet twistedly impish tricks to make people wince and take the time to pluck them out.

While we're at it, lets add in the extending boomerang effect to make more aerodynamic twirlies for people to stare at with incredudility (I'm not sure that's even spellable, lol) before they get stabbed.

*should read back in this thread* biggrin.gif
hyzmarca
If you really want to be evil with the monowire bola mine then don't use explosives at all. Instead, use an electric motor and have the counterweights just spin out. A monowire riged pole pops out of the ground and spins at very high speed for several seconds. Then, a second electric motor retracts the wire and the pole retracts back into the hidden mine. When someone comes along and tries to help their injuried buddies the monowire starts spinning again.
stevebugge
QUOTE (Silo)

Would this be the Improvised Lubricants skill?

HAWT!!1!

My next character seems destined to be MacGyver grinbig.gif
BishopMcQ
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
The problem with monowire is that it doesn't make sense. Thus if you decide to create new ordnance based on it, it is impossible to rebuke you with logic. So I won't even try.

Austere--Why do you think this? I'd say the web goes up and guards would have the same perception test to notice it and damage based on whether they were walking or running down the corridor. If guards saw the device deploy, I'd give them bonus dice on the perception test to note the wires being spread across the corridor.
Azralon
QUOTE (stevebugge)
Of course the price might be a bit high for something you would scatter around the yard, but then again I suppose it depends on what you are protecting.

It depends how expensive smart materials are supposed to be. It's only the conjoined center of the tines that would need to be so "motorized," not the entire caltrop itself. And stealth RFID tags are nearly a dime a dozen, so that's no big deal.
stevebugge
QUOTE (Azralon)
QUOTE (stevebugge @ Feb 6 2006, 06:24 PM)
Of course the price might be a bit high for something you would scatter around the yard, but then again I suppose it depends on what you are protecting.

It depends how expensive smart materials are supposed to be. It's only the conjoined center of the tines that would need to be so "motorized," not the entire caltrop itself. And stealth RFID tags are nearly a dime a dozen, so that's no big deal.

That's true. So RFID Tag retails at 1, probably wholesales at around .6, metal spikes are probably on par with nails for cost, and need something like a watch battery to power the whole thing. So depending on the price of the smart material motor these would probably sell for 5 nuyen.gif at a minimum but could be more. Still 5 nuyen.gif a piece, with 2-3 per square foot spread over a half acre yard would add up.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (McQuillan)
Why do you think this?

If monowire (made from carbon nanotubes) were thin enough to actually have even some of the amazing cutting powers it's supposed to, it would be so weak that it would be guaranteed to snap if you put any weight on it. It would have to be as thick as a human hair to handle even 600 Newtons of force -- that means a 70kg human falling on it would still cause it to snap. Incidentally, have you seen hairs cutting through clothing or skin lately?

The way monowire is used as a weapon in Shadowrun is ridiculous on its face, which means any wacky weapon designs depending on the primary uses of monowire can't help but be ridiculous.
Azralon
AE, keep in mind that SR monowire is supposed to be made of a substance with ridiculously high tensile strength. It's theoretically able to withstand incredible strain and therefore can be "sharp" enough to function like a high-tech cheese cutter without snapping like a spiderweb.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Azralon)
AE, keep in mind that SR monowire is supposed to be made of a substance with ridiculously high tensile strength.

That substance being buckminsterfullerene tubes (carbon nanotubes). Braids made out of it do have a ridiculously high tensile strength -- I have seen some estimates of about 60 GPa. But that's not enough: at 1/10th the thickness of a human hair, it would still snap with as little as 6 Newtons of force (0.65kg of weight hanging on it).

As I said above, just to handle the weight of the average male human adult, which it would have to to function as a weapon, it would have to be thicker than a human hair. Consider the amount of force required to get a human hair to cut through clothing, skin and flesh.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (Azralon)
AE, keep in mind that SR monowire is supposed to be made of a substance with ridiculously high tensile strength.

That substance being buckminsterfullerene tubes (carbon nanotubes). Braids made out of it do have a ridiculously high tensile strength -- I have seen some estimates of about 60 GPa. But that's not enough: at 1/10th the thickness of a human hair, it would still snap with as little as 6 Newtons of force (0.65kg of weight hanging on it).

As I said above, just to handle the weight of the average male human adult, which it would have to to function as a weapon, it would have to be thicker than a human hair. Consider the amount of force required to get a human hair to cut through clothing, skin and flesh.

I agree with you that a braid of buckytubes isn't strong enough, however I do want to point out that it doesn't have to support a human's weight. No one's hanging from the stuff. If we assume it's cutting then it's experiencing less force.
Still not feasible, though.
Monowhips should have rules for breaking. Especially if used against armor. That would make them less horribly unrealistic. Roll ten dice vs. threshold of 1/2 impact armor of target, edge usable by wielder, or something like that. Or ten dice minus total impact armor worn, need 1 success, edge usable by wielder.
Adds a bit of believability to them and makes monowire less UBAR SW337!!1
Halabis
Have you guys ever seen a tomatoe slicer? It uses exceedingly thin and sharp wires to slice up a tomatoe. They arent monomolecular, or even close to a humans hair thin. But they are SHARP, and still very very thin, and if you take them out of the slicer fairly flexible. Now imagine making the exact same type of wire, but out of super high tech processed materials. Its only unbelievable if you start attributing properties to it that are clearly not intended, such as beeing x/100ths of a human hair and all that. Monowire isnt monomolecular. Its just realy tough cheese wire.
Austere Emancipator
If the wire gets snagged on any larger bones, let alone if it faces anything metallic, then it probably will end up having someone hanging from it or otherwise exerting as much force on it as they would if they were hanging.

The only weaponized form that could be effective that I can think of is using lots of it in very thin braids, designed to snap off and cut into any exposed flesh. Even then, I cannot fathom why anyone would bother, considering how many more effective and far cheaper alternatives there are.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Halabis)
Its only unbelievable if you start attributing properties to it that are clearly not intended [...]

In SR3 at least, monowhips were clearly intended to be capable of cutting through thick concrete walls. I'm not making shit up to discredit weaponized monowire, the SR designers did that for me.
neko128
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (Halabis)
Its only unbelievable if you start attributing properties to it that are clearly not intended [...]

In SR3 at least, monowhips were clearly intended to be capable of cutting through thick concrete walls. I'm not making shit up to discredit weaponized monowire, the SR designers did that for me.

So you object on principle to the unrealistic monowire bit, but you play a game where a significant portion of the human population turned into creatures from mythology and legend? Where dragons run cities and free spirits run around and people interface with computers with their bare brains?

The entire game - the entire GENRE - depends in its entirety on suspension of disbelief. If you can handle magic in the game, why can't you handle material science in excess of current material science, especially when it was written at a point of even worse understanding than now?

It's not realistic. Oh, well. I could probably point at something equally unrealistic on any page in the SR4 rulebook.
Jaid
the problem there is that monowire isn't magical (or at least, it isn't supposed to be).

that's like saying "well, you can be an elf, therefore it doesn't matter if falling damage is reasonable, you could have the rules say that a 1 meter fall is guaranteed to kill a troll with maximum augmented body and a full cybernetic conversion and it wouldn't matter".

(at least for most of us... although there is a thread kicking around somewhere that this does not hold true for nyahnyah.gif ) we can't compare SR magic to RL magic, so of course it isn't a problem if SR magic doesn't wholly make sense. OTOH, many of us are at least reasonably familiar with RL technology, and can make educated statements about SR tech based on our knowledge of RL tech.
Silo
Yet, I don't think we should think that the people at FASA and now FanPro should be masters of all things technical.

They weren't and still aren't.

Some things make sense, some don't. Enjoy the game for what it is and change what you deem to be unenjoyable.

Healthy debate is always good though.
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