Sphynx,
That is true, but you simply turn the focus off when going through a ward if it is force one. It is dead easy to recast it and you probably will not take drain doing it.
-Polaris
Full Version: Modified Increase Reflexes spell
A reasonable solutionion to the "mage on duty" question is to simply use several mages to create each ward. That way you have four or five guys who create a long lasting ward (particularly handy with alarm wards which you often don't see) and can each get alerted when it's breeched.
I'd say alarm wards are your biggest threat, anyway, since you're simply more likely to walk across them without ever knowing it, and it doesn't go down when you've passed it. Generally, you have to be grade 3 before synchronizing past astral barriers/wards works for anything force 4 or better.
I'd say alarm wards are your biggest threat, anyway, since you're simply more likely to walk across them without ever knowing it, and it doesn't go down when you've passed it. Generally, you have to be grade 3 before synchronizing past astral barriers/wards works for anything force 4 or better.
TinkerGnome,
Point taken, but with those sorts of resources (we are starting to get into Megacorp territory), your mage may well have those three or four grades of initiation.
However, you are right....for every offensive tactic there is a defensive counter and vice versa.
That said, I have found that in most cases, you will set of the alarm *anyway* so the alarm ward really doesn't matter. For that matter you can have watchers go hither and yon setting off alarm wards as well.
My point is this: If you expect to be detected, and plan on a smash and grab, then wards are really a non-issue....and if you have done your legwork properly, smash and grab works extremely well. After all it takes *time* for even on-site security to respond....and by then it is generally too late.
-Polaris
Point taken, but with those sorts of resources (we are starting to get into Megacorp territory), your mage may well have those three or four grades of initiation.
However, you are right....for every offensive tactic there is a defensive counter and vice versa.
That said, I have found that in most cases, you will set of the alarm *anyway* so the alarm ward really doesn't matter. For that matter you can have watchers go hither and yon setting off alarm wards as well.
My point is this: If you expect to be detected, and plan on a smash and grab, then wards are really a non-issue....and if you have done your legwork properly, smash and grab works extremely well. After all it takes *time* for even on-site security to respond....and by then it is generally too late.
-Polaris
Well any company which can provide an astral response you would even care about should be able to get three mages to make a ward. Each mage you add, after all, is effectively doubling the time between having to replace it, if it remains unbreeched.
As far as alarms go, I'd actually be more worried about triggering the astral than the physical. The physical response takes significant time to rally and respond, but a couple of mages with half a dozen elementals each can be on you in seconds. (elementals are cheap, after all, if your company bothers hire a mage with some skill in enchantment, something within the scope of a AA or AAA corp, at least, if not most A's)
As far as alarms go, I'd actually be more worried about triggering the astral than the physical. The physical response takes significant time to rally and respond, but a couple of mages with half a dozen elementals each can be on you in seconds. (elementals are cheap, after all, if your company bothers hire a mage with some skill in enchantment, something within the scope of a AA or AAA corp, at least, if not most A's)
What does all this have to do with House Ruling an Increased Reflex spell? 
Seriously, as has already been stated, for every yin there's a yang.
Bring your Elementals/Mage, I'll Spirit Blast behind my Astral Armour while my Elementals keep the mage busy. This can go on and on what you'd and he'd do... Why do all the spell threads devolve into the 'proper way do runs'?
The House Rule for the Reflex spell is a good one, it should be merged into a single, +1S spell where [ Force(/2 round down) or hard-capped at 3 ] and/or Successes dictate the number of additional dice IMHO. People who have Force 1, +3 spells will obviously disagree, those of us who always learn the +3 at Force 6 will always agree (+1S vs +1D or +3D). People who learn it at Force 3 (to withstand wards without having to re-cast) will lose a dice and go 50/50 on like/dislike.
The important thing is, again IMHO, that it makes sense due to standardization as it's the last of the Health spells to not be merged like this. And if that standardization/fix makes the game world more believable, then it's a good thing. I believe that in future editions they'll either do the merge on an official level, or undo the merge to the other attributes (since +6's are becoming common amongst those of us who min/max).
Sphynx
Seriously, as has already been stated, for every yin there's a yang.
Bring your Elementals/Mage, I'll Spirit Blast behind my Astral Armour while my Elementals keep the mage busy. This can go on and on what you'd and he'd do...
Why do all the spell threads devolve into the 'proper way do runs'? The House Rule for the Reflex spell is a good one, it should be merged into a single, +1S spell where [ Force(/2 round down) or hard-capped at 3 ] and/or Successes dictate the number of additional dice IMHO. People who have Force 1, +3 spells will obviously disagree, those of us who always learn the +3 at Force 6 will always agree (+1S vs +1D or +3D). People who learn it at Force 3 (to withstand wards without having to re-cast) will lose a dice and go 50/50 on like/dislike.
The important thing is, again IMHO, that it makes sense due to standardization as it's the last of the Health spells to not be merged like this. And if that standardization/fix makes the game world more believable, then it's a good thing. I believe that in future editions they'll either do the merge on an official level, or undo the merge to the other attributes (since +6's are becoming common amongst those of us who min/max).
Sphynx
[Majority of Post Deleted Upon Reconsideration]
I disagree that with Polaris. I further strongly disagree that dispelling isn't an option for taking care of any Sustaining Foci/Quickened Spell. However as evidenced by the person claiming they're not an option there seems to be rather limited imagination at work.
Enjoy you game.
I disagree that with Polaris. I further strongly disagree that dispelling isn't an option for taking care of any Sustaining Foci/Quickened Spell. However as evidenced by the person claiming they're not an option there seems to be rather limited imagination at work.
Enjoy you game.
Neophyte,
Actually I would say that I have more imagination and a more open mind than most Dumpshockers. I am willing to examine the evidence carefully rather than protect sacred cows....and I am willing to accept what my game experience is telling me.
1. Dispelling really is not a realistic option. Even Cain admitted that. Why? Opportunity cost. Instead of dispelling, you could have attempted to kill the mage and/or destroy the focus instead. Either is much superior to dispelling.
2. You have to see the focus to dispell it. That is not always a given with masking....and it takes another simple action to assense to pierce it while the cloaking effect for the defender is free.
3. For high force foci and quickened spells, dispelling is almost always a wasted action. The target numbers are just too high, and the dice you toss (your magic w/o pool) is just too low.
4. Finally, for the force 1 Increased Reflexes Foci (the topic of this discussion), it won't even be active most of the time. The only time it will be active is in combat, and then dispelling is a very poor choice for all the reasons above.
So before you claim I "lack imagination", try looking and playing the game with a critical eye and ask yourself if I might not be right. I am not asking for agreement on all points, just an open mind.
-Polaris
Actually I would say that I have more imagination and a more open mind than most Dumpshockers. I am willing to examine the evidence carefully rather than protect sacred cows....and I am willing to accept what my game experience is telling me.
1. Dispelling really is not a realistic option. Even Cain admitted that. Why? Opportunity cost. Instead of dispelling, you could have attempted to kill the mage and/or destroy the focus instead. Either is much superior to dispelling.
2. You have to see the focus to dispell it. That is not always a given with masking....and it takes another simple action to assense to pierce it while the cloaking effect for the defender is free.
3. For high force foci and quickened spells, dispelling is almost always a wasted action. The target numbers are just too high, and the dice you toss (your magic w/o pool) is just too low.
4. Finally, for the force 1 Increased Reflexes Foci (the topic of this discussion), it won't even be active most of the time. The only time it will be active is in combat, and then dispelling is a very poor choice for all the reasons above.
So before you claim I "lack imagination", try looking and playing the game with a critical eye and ask yourself if I might not be right. I am not asking for agreement on all points, just an open mind.
-Polaris
One thing about dispelling that bears mention, It can be done entirely from the astral IIRC. The person walking around is not going to be percieving most of the time, so an astral entity has lots of undetected time to percieve and pierce masking. He can then initiate combat how he sees fit, and the easiest way to do that is by smacking something with an astral presence. That's how it happens most of the times I see it happen. For that matter yes, I agree Attacking the focus is more effective than dispelling, but for things like tattoo magic and such, or enemies with longer term goals, permanently weakening spells does server long term benefits. Even if the spell is not destroyed, the user still lost some, or many sucesses off of it making it less useful, and there is no way IIRC to get those sucesses added back without spending more karma.
Bitbasher,
Actually Dispelling can not always be done from astral. You have to be on the same plane as the target of the spell. Admittedly you could dispell the spell on a focus while astral because a focus is dual natured, but you could not in general dispell a quickened spell that way.
In addition to that, if the spell force is greater than your magic rating, you take physical drain regardless.....and in my experience most quickened spells are at least force 12 and often force 14 or even more.
Finally, you are neglecting two common facts (at least in my gaming experience):
1. The mage in question is most often astral himself. We have found that this actaully gives the mage the greatest amount of flexibility....especially if you can have one mage astral while the other (and again in my experienes most teams have two mages) is on the physical plane.
2. The mage will almost certainly have an elemental bodyguard. While it is true you can blow that bodyguard away, I doubt you can do it before the enemy mage perceives and/or projects to fight you directly.
Finally, in the case of increased reflexes +3 at force one, dispelling is really pointless since it is dead easy even in combat for the mage to bring it back up if he really wants to. If you attacked from astral, chances are he won't bother (since mages are faster than God in astral anyway). If you did it physically, he trades his increased reflexes spell for your life. That is not a hard trade.
In short, I find that while dispelling *can* be used by a clever mage, it is generally a non-issue.....certainly it is rare enough not to be a balanced consideration.
-Polaris
Actually Dispelling can not always be done from astral. You have to be on the same plane as the target of the spell. Admittedly you could dispell the spell on a focus while astral because a focus is dual natured, but you could not in general dispell a quickened spell that way.
In addition to that, if the spell force is greater than your magic rating, you take physical drain regardless.....and in my experience most quickened spells are at least force 12 and often force 14 or even more.
Finally, you are neglecting two common facts (at least in my gaming experience):
1. The mage in question is most often astral himself. We have found that this actaully gives the mage the greatest amount of flexibility....especially if you can have one mage astral while the other (and again in my experienes most teams have two mages) is on the physical plane.
2. The mage will almost certainly have an elemental bodyguard. While it is true you can blow that bodyguard away, I doubt you can do it before the enemy mage perceives and/or projects to fight you directly.
Finally, in the case of increased reflexes +3 at force one, dispelling is really pointless since it is dead easy even in combat for the mage to bring it back up if he really wants to. If you attacked from astral, chances are he won't bother (since mages are faster than God in astral anyway). If you did it physically, he trades his increased reflexes spell for your life. That is not a hard trade.
In short, I find that while dispelling *can* be used by a clever mage, it is generally a non-issue.....certainly it is rare enough not to be a balanced consideration.
-Polaris
(((( Edit: Fixing Spelling, Missing words to complete phrases (had to throw in a shown to make a phrase read properly), and clarifying some points. ))))
(((( Edit 2: The post and the person it was directed at weren't worth the warning I knew I would recieve. ))))
(((( Edit 2: The post and the person it was directed at weren't worth the warning I knew I would recieve. ))))
heh, as we have displayed earlier our experiences are bipolar opposites.
I have never had a quickened spell in my game higher than force 6, and only 2 quickened spells ever.
The mage is never, ever astral except on recon, as that means he cant do jack to help his mundane pals.
I think twice in 9 or 10 years have I ever had more than 2 casters in a party.
95% of my spellcasters are shamen, where they cannot use a bodyguard like that without constant resummoning because of domain changes... and Noone in my game uses elementals for bodyguarding because they cannot easliy get though wards and barriers, same reason PC's are never dual natured or keep quickened spells.
I won't argue that dispelling is rare.. I have had it happen enough times to count on one hand during the last many years. Destroying a foci is far more common, but still pretty damn rare... in fact using any foci other than power or weapon foci is damn rare.
I have never had a quickened spell in my game higher than force 6, and only 2 quickened spells ever.
The mage is never, ever astral except on recon, as that means he cant do jack to help his mundane pals.
I think twice in 9 or 10 years have I ever had more than 2 casters in a party.
95% of my spellcasters are shamen, where they cannot use a bodyguard like that without constant resummoning because of domain changes... and Noone in my game uses elementals for bodyguarding because they cannot easliy get though wards and barriers, same reason PC's are never dual natured or keep quickened spells.
I won't argue that dispelling is rare.. I have had it happen enough times to count on one hand during the last many years. Destroying a foci is far more common, but still pretty damn rare... in fact using any foci other than power or weapon foci is damn rare.
Bitbasher,
Experiences do differ, however I think we agree that dispelling is rare (are you listening Nephyte?) and that is enough for me.
Edit: When you have more than one mage on the team, the situation changes. An astral mage can occupy elementals keeping them on the astral plane (and you don't want elementals materializing since they are almost invunerable to mundane attacks). This also means that if the enemy caster has foci, the astral mage can target those with impunity forcing the enemy mage to defend astrally.
Thus the combination of one spellcaster astral and one physical is IMX pretty damned near unbeatable.
Nephyte,
Actually, I have shown quite a bit of tolerance for opinions that differ from my own. I suggest you read my posts more carefully. I do not, however, suffer fools. If you disagree with me w/r/t the rules or the balance implications therein, you have to convince me.
As for dispelling, reread the dispelling rules. You target the subject of the spell rather than the spell itself. In the case of a foci, then yes, you can do it astrally. In the case of a quickened spell, you can not. The rules are quite clear on that.
As for recasting, that depends. You blow your pass dispelling my foci (assuming you can even see it), and I simply kill you. In fact given your antipathy to sustained buffs, I will likely go first. Lose of my Increased Relfexes spell (temporily) vs killing you. I will take that trade any day.
As for being astral, then you are missing a trick. In the first place, I have found that two mages are exceedingly common in groups for many reasons (most of which are not really topical). The projecting mage can be in a completely secure and warded bank vault in near complete safety while his partner can be physical. This is nearly an unbeatable combo.
As for the target numbers to dispell, that is a complete joke. Other than the increased reflexes, you will be looking at target numbers of six which means you will get perhaps a success, maybe two. OK, you weaken me, perhaps reducing my spell pool by one and my willpower by one. Then I turn around and blast you to kingdom come. You would have been much better off targeting the focus instead....of course that means less loot.
Bad, bad, bad. Dispelling in combat is rare and it is rare for good reason. That is one point (I think) that Bitbasher and I agree on. If you really want to be "anti-mage", then use spells like decrease will or decrease charisma.
Finally, your last point, low target number? I don't consider 6 or 12 to be low. And you probably won't get to see my force one Increased Reflexes spell.
As for my being a guiding star, that is exactly how I view myself. There is a lot of groupthink on this board, and I am trying to shake some of it loose. That, naturally, makes me unpopular.
-Polaris
Experiences do differ, however I think we agree that dispelling is rare (are you listening Nephyte?) and that is enough for me.
Edit: When you have more than one mage on the team, the situation changes. An astral mage can occupy elementals keeping them on the astral plane (and you don't want elementals materializing since they are almost invunerable to mundane attacks). This also means that if the enemy caster has foci, the astral mage can target those with impunity forcing the enemy mage to defend astrally.
Thus the combination of one spellcaster astral and one physical is IMX pretty damned near unbeatable.
Nephyte,
Actually, I have shown quite a bit of tolerance for opinions that differ from my own. I suggest you read my posts more carefully. I do not, however, suffer fools. If you disagree with me w/r/t the rules or the balance implications therein, you have to convince me.
As for dispelling, reread the dispelling rules. You target the subject of the spell rather than the spell itself. In the case of a foci, then yes, you can do it astrally. In the case of a quickened spell, you can not. The rules are quite clear on that.
As for recasting, that depends. You blow your pass dispelling my foci (assuming you can even see it), and I simply kill you. In fact given your antipathy to sustained buffs, I will likely go first. Lose of my Increased Relfexes spell (temporily) vs killing you. I will take that trade any day.
As for being astral, then you are missing a trick. In the first place, I have found that two mages are exceedingly common in groups for many reasons (most of which are not really topical). The projecting mage can be in a completely secure and warded bank vault in near complete safety while his partner can be physical. This is nearly an unbeatable combo.
As for the target numbers to dispell, that is a complete joke. Other than the increased reflexes, you will be looking at target numbers of six which means you will get perhaps a success, maybe two. OK, you weaken me, perhaps reducing my spell pool by one and my willpower by one. Then I turn around and blast you to kingdom come. You would have been much better off targeting the focus instead....of course that means less loot.
Bad, bad, bad. Dispelling in combat is rare and it is rare for good reason. That is one point (I think) that Bitbasher and I agree on. If you really want to be "anti-mage", then use spells like decrease will or decrease charisma.
Finally, your last point, low target number? I don't consider 6 or 12 to be low. And you probably won't get to see my force one Increased Reflexes spell.
As for my being a guiding star, that is exactly how I view myself. There is a lot of groupthink on this board, and I am trying to shake some of it loose. That, naturally, makes me unpopular.
-Polaris
I was away for a bit, sorry it took so long to reply.
I believe that my astral one-man thrash metal band argument stands. It's not always easy to both cast a 3D drain spell, hit your reaction with the remaining dice, and maintain a safety margin in the case of a bad day. Also corporate environments are supposedly unnatural enough to have force 1 background counts, I've only ever seen this once but the GM could still add background counts if he feels the need to balance the game.
Then you have the problem that casting the spell again will probably be noticeable by watcher spirits ETC. Spirit goes to tell master, your team geeks spirit, master knows, master sounds alarm.
Unless you're 100% stealthy then on your way out you're going to be moving past wards and probably fighting too (whilst moving at a good speed). Having to re-cast after each ward (or enter into astral combat with the ward, or drop the spell completely) is gonna slow you down a bit compared to the sammie with wired 2.
I agree that the mage would have to go astral, after-all, how else would they communicate? If only they invented small, possibly portable, devices that could be used to communicate vocally with someone when it's inconvenient to astrally project... I dunno. I doubt they will have invented something like that by 1960.
2-4 force 8 Elemental bodyguards are nice. Why don't you factor the cost of one or two of them per run into your equations?
More than one mage can set-up a barrier together, allowing barriers to be created more easily/faster. Theoretically this means there is more than one owner so no-matter-what mage is on duty they will probably be one of the owners of the ward..
Paranimals can theoretically be trained to act differently in the presence of unfamiliar spirits and spell auras in such a way that a handler could identify the threat and radio/subvocalise back to the security base. Biomonitor collars that sound an alarm when the animal dies/falls unconscious may also be effective against your group.
Masking is good for concealing the focus, but if what people here are suggesting is implemented (force/2 bonus from a +1S drain spell) Then masking a force 6 increase reflexes spell (and whatever else you have on you) becomes nigh impossible except for the most drek-hot initiates.
I am, of-course, assuming that if the alarm is sounded then enough security personnel turn-up to threaten your team.
As a final point to end my ramblings on; awakened characters have already spent a lot during character creation on magical power, part of which could be considered to be the ability to cast the force 1 Increase Reflexes +3 spell.
I believe that my astral one-man thrash metal band argument stands. It's not always easy to both cast a 3D drain spell, hit your reaction with the remaining dice, and maintain a safety margin in the case of a bad day. Also corporate environments are supposedly unnatural enough to have force 1 background counts, I've only ever seen this once but the GM could still add background counts if he feels the need to balance the game.
Then you have the problem that casting the spell again will probably be noticeable by watcher spirits ETC. Spirit goes to tell master, your team geeks spirit, master knows, master sounds alarm.
Unless you're 100% stealthy then on your way out you're going to be moving past wards and probably fighting too (whilst moving at a good speed). Having to re-cast after each ward (or enter into astral combat with the ward, or drop the spell completely) is gonna slow you down a bit compared to the sammie with wired 2.
I agree that the mage would have to go astral, after-all, how else would they communicate? If only they invented small, possibly portable, devices that could be used to communicate vocally with someone when it's inconvenient to astrally project... I dunno. I doubt they will have invented something like that by 1960.
2-4 force 8 Elemental bodyguards are nice. Why don't you factor the cost of one or two of them per run into your equations?
More than one mage can set-up a barrier together, allowing barriers to be created more easily/faster. Theoretically this means there is more than one owner so no-matter-what mage is on duty they will probably be one of the owners of the ward..
Paranimals can theoretically be trained to act differently in the presence of unfamiliar spirits and spell auras in such a way that a handler could identify the threat and radio/subvocalise back to the security base. Biomonitor collars that sound an alarm when the animal dies/falls unconscious may also be effective against your group.
Masking is good for concealing the focus, but if what people here are suggesting is implemented (force/2 bonus from a +1S drain spell) Then masking a force 6 increase reflexes spell (and whatever else you have on you) becomes nigh impossible except for the most drek-hot initiates.
I am, of-course, assuming that if the alarm is sounded then enough security personnel turn-up to threaten your team.
As a final point to end my ramblings on; awakened characters have already spent a lot during character creation on magical power, part of which could be considered to be the ability to cast the force 1 Increase Reflexes +3 spell.
Lilt,
Actually, if you have done your legwork, then you can be fairly sure that astral projection is the only way that mage can notify security in time.
In the first place, a good Decker can track and block LTG access from his number....and you will know where he lives because his signature will be all over the wards he put up (the achilles heel of wards btw). Thus, you can be fairly sure that astral projection is the only way he can respond in time.
In the second place, you can indeed have the entire team make the ward. Of course even then, only astral creatures can respond in time and an astrally projecting mage will wipe the floor with any astral response team including dual natured creatures.
As for being 100% stealthy, if you are not, then you don't bother taking down the focus. You simply blast the wards. It is called *smash* and grab for a reason.
I admit that smash and grab is not pretty, and it does not make for a good movie, but it *does* work (and IRL this is the technique sucessful bankrobbers and jewel thieves use....movies notwithstanding).
-Polaris
Actually, if you have done your legwork, then you can be fairly sure that astral projection is the only way that mage can notify security in time.
In the first place, a good Decker can track and block LTG access from his number....and you will know where he lives because his signature will be all over the wards he put up (the achilles heel of wards btw). Thus, you can be fairly sure that astral projection is the only way he can respond in time.
In the second place, you can indeed have the entire team make the ward. Of course even then, only astral creatures can respond in time and an astrally projecting mage will wipe the floor with any astral response team including dual natured creatures.
As for being 100% stealthy, if you are not, then you don't bother taking down the focus. You simply blast the wards. It is called *smash* and grab for a reason.
I admit that smash and grab is not pretty, and it does not make for a good movie, but it *does* work (and IRL this is the technique sucessful bankrobbers and jewel thieves use....movies notwithstanding).
-Polaris
I agree polaris that dispelling is very rare, largely because of the draconian drain that can be associated with it and the fact that it rarely is completely sucessful on the first shot. If you are actually in combat not not using it as a surprise first shot then I can't really see anyone ever using it unless theres a very specific cirumstance involved...
| QUOTE |
| Actually, if you have done your legwork, then you can be fairly sure that astral projection is the only way that mage can notify security in time. |
This I whoilly disgree with, all ge has to do it hit a panicbutton, hit speed dial on the cell, ect ect... all of which can be done from home. If he is at work all he has to do is yell "HEY BOB! BREACH!" all of which can be done in a matter of seconds.
| QUOTE |
| In the second place, you can indeed have the entire team make the ward. Of course even then, only astral creatures can respond in time and an astrally projecting mage will wipe the floor with any astral response team including dual natured creatures. |
peoper response is not always about getting there ASAP and engaging in a fight, it's about containment. gather physical forces while the perps are in the building and mow them down when the opportunity presents itself. You also make the assumption that the sec mage will hot be as good or better than your mages when there is no real reason that they couldn't be.
For that matter that is why I use alarm words more than physical wards, the PC's dont even KNOW security has been alerted. Generally speaking a FRT team or SWAT in my game will SMOKE a PC team pretty much every time.
What on earth are wer now actually talking about in this thread anyway??
For that matter that is why I use alarm words more than physical wards, the PC's dont even KNOW security has been alerted. Generally speaking a FRT team or SWAT in my game will SMOKE a PC team pretty much every time.
What on earth are wer now actually talking about in this thread anyway??
Bitbasher,
The point is that if you have done your legwork, you will know how long you have before security arrives in force. If security holds off an arriving ASAP to enage in force, then most likely they will respond too late.
Alarm Ward are tricky but they can be spotted. If an installation relys on them too much, a single watcher can cause all kinds of chaos.
The original point was the necessity of houseruling Inproved Reflexes to be more in line with other health spells and nerfing them....and I admit I got pulled off topic.
I find from my own analysis that the houserule is a good one. Mages are powerful enough without handing them +10 initiative for nearly nothing....and the disadvantages of the force 1 focus are not nearly great enough to make up for the cost difference (especially when you consider you can buy it off the corner street since it is legal w/o permit).
-Polaris
The point is that if you have done your legwork, you will know how long you have before security arrives in force. If security holds off an arriving ASAP to enage in force, then most likely they will respond too late.
Alarm Ward are tricky but they can be spotted. If an installation relys on them too much, a single watcher can cause all kinds of chaos.
The original point was the necessity of houseruling Inproved Reflexes to be more in line with other health spells and nerfing them....and I admit I got pulled off topic.
I find from my own analysis that the houserule is a good one. Mages are powerful enough without handing them +10 initiative for nearly nothing....and the disadvantages of the force 1 focus are not nearly great enough to make up for the cost difference (especially when you consider you can buy it off the corner street since it is legal w/o permit).
-Polaris
You can predict _average_ response time for units.
You can narrow that down by knowing the policy/procedure of the security department and the mindset of the person making the call.
That being said, it's never a sure thing.
If you want to cover your bases, drop motion-activated thermal sensors or better yet, take a second and spike on into the ceiling tile. (Think the motion-sensor doo-hicky from "The Rock"). Once activated, it broadcasts a warning signal -- if a team has an orientation device, it might flash the location of the tripped alarm.
-Siege
You can narrow that down by knowing the policy/procedure of the security department and the mindset of the person making the call.
That being said, it's never a sure thing.
If you want to cover your bases, drop motion-activated thermal sensors or better yet, take a second and spike on into the ceiling tile. (Think the motion-sensor doo-hicky from "The Rock"). Once activated, it broadcasts a warning signal -- if a team has an orientation device, it might flash the location of the tripped alarm.
-Siege
Siege,
You might be suprised but that (an average plus an error band) is more than good enough to plan a run around. As I said before RL Jewel Hiests and Bank Robberies (the successful ones) are built on exactly the same priniciple. For that matter many special ops missions are also built on this principle.
-Polaris
You might be suprised but that (an average plus an error band) is more than good enough to plan a run around. As I said before RL Jewel Hiests and Bank Robberies (the successful ones) are built on exactly the same priniciple. For that matter many special ops missions are also built on this principle.
-Polaris
I should have been more specific in my post -- average response time for grunt level assets is easier to predict than say, FRT or SWAT and similar units.
Why? FRT or SWAT doesn't roll out nearly as often, making first-hand calculations difficult. Evaluating based on timed exercises is fine, if you can acquire that kind of background information.
Additionally, you have to take into account the nature of the alarm and the CO making the call. A gung-ho CO might jump the gun and order forces in without thought, especially if it's a hot site that might him look bad. A more calculating CO might hold his units in reserve, blocking off exits and waiting for backup or for the runners to break cover and get trapped in a killing field.
Does security procedure dictate calling all available elements to the site of the alarm (something campus security is famous for) or general lock-down?
Assuming the team knows they've tripped an alarm and know to start the clock on expected response.
(On a complete aside, I want to try using a rigger to put a drone aloft with real time surveillance piped to the insertion team.)
-Siege
Why? FRT or SWAT doesn't roll out nearly as often, making first-hand calculations difficult. Evaluating based on timed exercises is fine, if you can acquire that kind of background information.
Additionally, you have to take into account the nature of the alarm and the CO making the call. A gung-ho CO might jump the gun and order forces in without thought, especially if it's a hot site that might him look bad. A more calculating CO might hold his units in reserve, blocking off exits and waiting for backup or for the runners to break cover and get trapped in a killing field.
Does security procedure dictate calling all available elements to the site of the alarm (something campus security is famous for) or general lock-down?
Assuming the team knows they've tripped an alarm and know to start the clock on expected response.
(On a complete aside, I want to try using a rigger to put a drone aloft with real time surveillance piped to the insertion team.)
-Siege
And remember, knowing what you think their response time is is all well and good, nut a plan is just a list of things that go wrong. If everyting always works like you planned it, then you really are playing a fantasy game 
That sounds like another line of Murphy:
"A plan is just a list of things to go wrong."
-Siege
"A plan is just a list of things to go wrong."
-Siege
Guys,
Actually it's a paraphrase from Maj. Gen. Clauswitz in "On War" where he says that "No plan survives contact with the enemy."
That said, it is almost certain that the first units to respond will NOT be SWAT or FRT, thus if you know the response time for the goons, you have a pretty good guestimate for the response time of the elite units as well.
I also remind you all of something else Clauswitz said. He also said that "Without a plan you do not survive contact with the enemy." Smash and grab is a plan, but you have to be flexible enough to improvise too which was the general's entire point.
-Polaris
Actually it's a paraphrase from Maj. Gen. Clauswitz in "On War" where he says that "No plan survives contact with the enemy."
That said, it is almost certain that the first units to respond will NOT be SWAT or FRT, thus if you know the response time for the goons, you have a pretty good guestimate for the response time of the elite units as well.
I also remind you all of something else Clauswitz said. He also said that "Without a plan you do not survive contact with the enemy." Smash and grab is a plan, but you have to be flexible enough to improvise too which was the general's entire point.
-Polaris
Polaris:
Your state that the astrally projecting mage will wipe the floor with any astral response team? How? There could be 4 or more mages involved in creating each ward, and at-least one of them will be on site to notify the security forces verbally and others could be working in other corp facilities, able to notify other security forces from there.
If the corporation truly can't send enough forces at you to take your team down then there is presumably something wrong.
"Smash and grab" is not always an option. This rules-out un-masked foci from such operations, placing tighter restrictions on using the Increace Reflexes +3 spell compared to wired 2. Even if you take-out the mage, cut-off all communication, and acrry-out the run without a problem, you have still gone to a lot of troubble.
Your state that the astrally projecting mage will wipe the floor with any astral response team? How? There could be 4 or more mages involved in creating each ward, and at-least one of them will be on site to notify the security forces verbally and others could be working in other corp facilities, able to notify other security forces from there.
If the corporation truly can't send enough forces at you to take your team down then there is presumably something wrong.
"Smash and grab" is not always an option. This rules-out un-masked foci from such operations, placing tighter restrictions on using the Increace Reflexes +3 spell compared to wired 2. Even if you take-out the mage, cut-off all communication, and acrry-out the run without a problem, you have still gone to a lot of troubble.
Too much improvisation means you are no longer operating with a plan. And the more complex the plan, the less deviation you can allow before it ceases to function.
And I think a research center that has an alarm go off in a primary lab will result in SWAT units being deployed. Assuming that the CO does the math and realizes it's not a couple of gang-bangers who managed to slip through his facility's security and into a highly restricted lab.
To send in grunt-level rent-a-cops is a tactical blunder on the order of "no man-sized air ducts" (cheerfully lifted from: "When I become an Evil Overlord) in the scenario above.
It, of course, depends entirely on what kind of structure your're penetrating as to what kind of security responds initially.
-Siege
And I think a research center that has an alarm go off in a primary lab will result in SWAT units being deployed. Assuming that the CO does the math and realizes it's not a couple of gang-bangers who managed to slip through his facility's security and into a highly restricted lab.
To send in grunt-level rent-a-cops is a tactical blunder on the order of "no man-sized air ducts" (cheerfully lifted from: "When I become an Evil Overlord) in the scenario above.
It, of course, depends entirely on what kind of structure your're penetrating as to what kind of security responds initially.
-Siege
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.