@MK Ultra: Interesting idea. It really sounds like a lot of bookkeeping. It's also going to result in PCs going out of their way to use a certain skill, and looking for opportunities to use it when it might not be entirely appropriate, just because they want to get that point of edge back. I'm imagining a player who "burns" a point to get a critical success on intimidation, then goes around intimidating everyone they meet, trying to get a natural critical success to get their point of edge back. I like the idea of having it after a certain period of time, but IMG I'm used to keeping a calendar, everyone follows it, and everyone knows that certain things will happen on certain days. This habit came from a matrix oriented game where everyone HAD to know when their programming test would finish. So for me, writing down a day three months in the future doesn't really add to the bookkeeping significantly, but YMMV.
@Cain: Well, it doesn't say you have to burn unused edge, but it doesn't say you can use spent edge, either. I think the intent is that you spend a point of edge and lower your maximum, as well, but rereading it, it is unclear.
@Rotbart: Assuming I'm not misinterpreting your level of sarcasm, I think I agree with you. Shadowrun shouldn't be treated as Paranoia, and this rule should not be an excuse for the GM to see how many times he can kill a PC. It does seem, though, that with this rule PCs won't die anymore.
@Ryu: I don't think anyone's saying that this is a trivial expenditure of karma. And if it's happening often, either you or your GM are doing something very wrong. However, 6 is pretty typical for one run. (IMG, of course) So someone could get away with doing this every other run. That is, assuming they don't get much karma on the run where they use this rule; hence, every other instead of every. True, their character wouldn't be advancing in any other way. Wouldn't want to do this multiple times? True. Could do it multiple times? Absolutely.
I'm not attacking this rule, or saying it's bad. But it seems significant, and it seems like it could change the feel of the game in significant ways. And I'm certainly not fudging any more die rolls to save PCs. They now have a built-in mechanic to save their own butts, all I have to do is find a suitable way of "saving" them.
Full Version: Escape certain death
Another discusion on the subject, linked for reference
Previously to reading some of the arguments in this thread I really didn't like the HOG rule. I've so far never had to deal with, but I made up a house rule as a security measure.
Basicly I would allow Edge to be burnt for one extra exploding die to a test. This would be possible to do after failing a test, after spending Edge on a test, and even after burning Edge on a test before. Repeatable until you run out or make the test. You would also be able to burn Edge that had already been used. Burning Edge would be something like squeezing out every little ounce of potential.
I've done this with Karma Pool in SR3 and it was very exciting and ballanced. Plus it kept Karma Pool in check. For it to work in SR4, one burnt Edge point would have to regenerate every time Edge refreshed. Otherwise it would be far to unfair.
Edge would also be allowed to be permanently reduced for the HOG effect as it stands in the book, but only if no Edge has been burnt in that scene. This would result in incapitation, mutilation and horrible things happening to the character, but survival is guaranteed. Most of the time when a character is about to die it's all riding on a single test. When that happens, you choose between taking your chances and possibly getting out clean, or simply bail out and suffer for it.
Below is a quote of me explaining why I was contemplating these house rules.
Previously to reading some of the arguments in this thread I really didn't like the HOG rule. I've so far never had to deal with, but I made up a house rule as a security measure.
Basicly I would allow Edge to be burnt for one extra exploding die to a test. This would be possible to do after failing a test, after spending Edge on a test, and even after burning Edge on a test before. Repeatable until you run out or make the test. You would also be able to burn Edge that had already been used. Burning Edge would be something like squeezing out every little ounce of potential.
I've done this with Karma Pool in SR3 and it was very exciting and ballanced. Plus it kept Karma Pool in check. For it to work in SR4, one burnt Edge point would have to regenerate every time Edge refreshed. Otherwise it would be far to unfair.
Edge would also be allowed to be permanently reduced for the HOG effect as it stands in the book, but only if no Edge has been burnt in that scene. This would result in incapitation, mutilation and horrible things happening to the character, but survival is guaranteed. Most of the time when a character is about to die it's all riding on a single test. When that happens, you choose between taking your chances and possibly getting out clean, or simply bail out and suffer for it.
Below is a quote of me explaining why I was contemplating these house rules.
| QUOTE |
| For my part, I make a lot of judgement calls as a GM. I normaly prefer to use common sense rather than relying on dice or rules only. But when it comes to character deaths, it would feel good to have a system that leaves nothing but the dice in charge. So that it´s not me saying either "You burn Edge? Ok, you live then" or "No, you could impossibly survive that" |
Perhaps it's still something to concider?
Dying was never a habit in our group... if one dislikes this rule, it has to be abandoned, not made more expensive.
Our primary GM is currently trying to kill someone (any of us really). He went so far as rolling open the whole day (no fudgeing) and then using an SMG on autofire with narrow burst, using edge from the get go. On another occassion he used a Mosberg AM-CMDT on Full Auto, also narrow, also rolling open. One shall see how things develop, but I will be keeping edge at 2 for the forseeable future. Survival is mission critical.
Our primary GM is currently trying to kill someone (any of us really). He went so far as rolling open the whole day (no fudgeing) and then using an SMG on autofire with narrow burst, using edge from the get go. On another occassion he used a Mosberg AM-CMDT on Full Auto, also narrow, also rolling open. One shall see how things develop, but I will be keeping edge at 2 for the forseeable future. Survival is mission critical.
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Feb 14 2006, 05:25 PM) |
| It does seem, though, that with this rule PCs won't die anymore. |
..unless the player choses so or runs out of Edge, yeah.
For me, that's not so bad - dead people usually have pretty boring plots.
(Unless you are playing a Shedim campaign, that is - then the fun start with death...)
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| ...dead people usually have pretty boring plots. |
granted. however, i've found that the added spice of actually being able to die--and die pretty easily--enhances my games. depends on how you play.
and avenge-the-slain-PC games can be fun, too.
Anyone can die. Especially in SR4.
-one bad dodge roll, facilitated by full-auto-weapons (and possibly edge usage)
-combat spells, preferably the direct ones
-enemies using inhalation-vector toxins
Shit happens easily. I´d rather have an established and well played character around than the newbie of the week.
-one bad dodge roll, facilitated by full-auto-weapons (and possibly edge usage)
-combat spells, preferably the direct ones
-enemies using inhalation-vector toxins
Shit happens easily. I´d rather have an established and well played character around than the newbie of the week.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Feb 14 2006, 04:52 AM) | ||
It's not like SR is turning into a video game/Paranoia (Remove a clone and continue):
Needless to say, if a game starts focussing on 'how to kill the PCs', there is something fundamentally wrong - with the GM.  |
There's also the fact that without the threat of character death, the game shifts from being an adventure to being a power-trip. GM's shouldn't be focusing on how to kill the PC's, but they should be thinking about how to threaten and challenge them.
| QUOTE |
| Anyone can die. Especially in SR4. |
Not so long as they have a permanent Edge of 1 or more, they can't.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| There's also the fact that without the threat of character death, the game shifts from being an adventure to being a power-trip. |
Only if character death would be the only option - luckily, that isn't the case: Getting caught alive is worse many times, as is losing rescources and people... though all of them make better stories than a job for the incinerator.
On the other hand, character death isn't even out of the equation, just delayed, so that trip comes to an end, too...
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| GM's shouldn't be focusing on how to kill the PC's, but they should be thinking about how to threaten and challenge them. |
Exactly.
If got the problem, that I almost always saved pc´s from death in previous games. This leaded to very mighty characters that never retired and one player being quiet on a powertrip. I´m very pleased to have a rule which allows but hard-caps escape from certain death without me having to fuge dicerolls anymore and without bothering when I should stop saving a pc.
@ Moon-Hawk
I´d say only skillrolls that matter would count, no sparring fights or rendom threats. If the pc gets the group into a mele with a near-equal opponent, just to get back his edge for unarmed, thats fine with me, too, as long as the situation is really chalanging. You could also say ingame, the pc does so, because he´s feeling cocky and confident after beating up that Triade-Adept so formidably, so he´s seaking a new kick. Or the face cant stop getting laied with hot guys after he expertly seduced that Lone Star Captain, just because he thinks he can, or to reassure himselfe, that it was not a oneshot.
Kalendar-keeping is allso an excellent habit in general and makes the time rule really easy. I might try out mine and switch if it doesn´t work out as planned.
@ Moon-Hawk
I´d say only skillrolls that matter would count, no sparring fights or rendom threats. If the pc gets the group into a mele with a near-equal opponent, just to get back his edge for unarmed, thats fine with me, too, as long as the situation is really chalanging. You could also say ingame, the pc does so, because he´s feeling cocky and confident after beating up that Triade-Adept so formidably, so he´s seaking a new kick. Or the face cant stop getting laied with hot guys after he expertly seduced that Lone Star Captain, just because he thinks he can, or to reassure himselfe, that it was not a oneshot.
Kalendar-keeping is allso an excellent habit in general and makes the time rule really easy. I might try out mine and switch if it doesn´t work out as planned.
| QUOTE |
| Only if character death would be the only option - luckily, that isn't the case: Getting caught alive is worse many times, as is losing rescources and people... though all of them make better stories than a job for the incinerator. On the other hand, character death isn't even out of the equation, just delayed, so that trip comes to an end, too... |
You still need the threat of character death. Otherwise, they'll just keep coming back for more, convinced that their PC halos mean they'll succeed eventually. You don't need to focus on actually killing PC's, but I've discovered that the game runs better when they have to face the threat of death on a more regular basis. My best experiences have been when the players felt their mortality; and one of the biggest mistakes I made as a new Shadowrun GM was that I didn't convince the players that character death was a real possibility. I tried the other options, but they just weren't as scary in the overall picture.
That's one reason why I have such an issue with Edge in the RAW: short of a total rules overhaul, it becomes impossible to threaten the characters with anything truly final. I also have issues with the front-loading possibilities, the fact that a completely untrained character who's blindfolded and at extreme range has better odds of pulling off a long shot test than a dedicated sniper, and the Amazing Regenerating Edge trick.
Then restrict edge effect:
-no rolling additional edge dice, just rerolls / rule of 6 activation
-no long shot tests at all, or only with one die regardless of edge
-no buying off death at all in case of player stupidity
-no rolling additional edge dice, just rerolls / rule of 6 activation
-no long shot tests at all, or only with one die regardless of edge
-no buying off death at all in case of player stupidity
If the players think they're invulnerable, hit them with a Force 9 Fireball.
So, they spend one edge to survive.
Then someone's grenade cooks off.
Another point of edge.
Then another grenade. Another point of edge. And so on.
Kill off the entire party, and have them generate new characters. Characters with the fear of death in them...
So, they spend one edge to survive.
Then someone's grenade cooks off.
Another point of edge.
Then another grenade. Another point of edge. And so on.
Kill off the entire party, and have them generate new characters. Characters with the fear of death in them...
If something or someone can hit them with a Force 9 fireball, then it doesn't matter what kills them anymore. If you need an ultrahigh Force fireball or some uber-weapon, then you might as well use bovine bombardment.
Force 9 is well within the capabilities of a starting PC.
If you spend Edge for a reroll, you probably won't take all that much drain, either.
12 dice on the test (5 Will, 5 whatever, 2 fetish) will score 6.6 repeating successes on average, leaving you with 2.3 repeating boxes of Physical drain.
In short, Force 9 Fireballs are not equivalent to orbital cow cannons.
If you spend Edge for a reroll, you probably won't take all that much drain, either.
12 dice on the test (5 Will, 5 whatever, 2 fetish) will score 6.6 repeating successes on average, leaving you with 2.3 repeating boxes of Physical drain.
In short, Force 9 Fireballs are not equivalent to orbital cow cannons.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| You still need the threat of character death. |
As the final option, sure.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| Otherwise, they'll just keep coming back for more, convinced that their PC halos mean they'll succeed eventually. |
Most of the time, in my games, bare survival isn't what qualifies for success.
Perhaps most of the players (and characters) I know aren't that much into masochism, too.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| I tried the other options, but they just weren't as scary in the overall picture. |
So, for me, most of the time, it work pretty well with the other options.
We tend to care for our characters, so we don´t need the final threat.
Not getting net karma for at least one session, possibly some more (rebuying edge 4 takes at least two runs) is punishment enough. Do note that making a habit of near-death experiences will deplete edge faster than it can be bought up again - all the while completely stopping char advancement.
And thats not even considering negative consequences like hospital bills and their ilk.
Not getting net karma for at least one session, possibly some more (rebuying edge 4 takes at least two runs) is punishment enough. Do note that making a habit of near-death experiences will deplete edge faster than it can be bought up again - all the while completely stopping char advancement.
And thats not even considering negative consequences like hospital bills and their ilk.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| Most of the time, in my games, bare survival isn't what qualifies for success. |
yes, but Cain's point is that if the players don't have to worry about their characters getting killed even in the event of catastrophic failure, they might start acting in stupid ways that break up the game. for instance, one of my players recently had their character charge into the midst of a group of enemies in order to loot one of the downed ones for a piece of really nice gear that NPC had been flashing around previously. the act was a) completely out of character and b) really stupid, tactically, so i blew his ass up. he survived, barely, by luck of the dice, but he learned not to pull crap like that in the future.
personally, when i'm playing, i like to know that my character might die. otherwise, pulling dangerous stunts has no meaning. taking on an enemy who clearly out matches your character, and winning anyway? that's not special if you've got a PC halo that keeps you from ever dying. i prefer that my actions have realistic consequences; and a lot of the time, in a game like SR, dying is the only realistic consequence for some actions.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| yes, but Cain's point is that if the players don't have to worry about their characters getting killed even in the event of catastrophic failure, they might start acting in stupid ways that break up the game. |
They might start acting in stupid ways that, sooner or later, will destroy them.
Of course, as soon as they run out of Edge or will to live, that includes dying, too.
eh. playing out that spiral of destruction can be just as un-fun as starting a new character. pick your poison.
Or disallow buying off death in case of player stupidity. I´d even put heroism on the list, because that indeed looses meaning if there is no loss involved.
| QUOTE (nick012000) |
| Force 9 is well within the capabilities of a starting PC. If you spend Edge for a reroll, you probably won't take all that much drain, either. 12 dice on the test (5 Will, 5 whatever, 2 fetish) will score 6.6 repeating successes on average, leaving you with 2.3 repeating boxes of Physical drain. In short, Force 9 Fireballs are not equivalent to orbital cow cannons. |
Yes, it is. RAW does not have rules telling how the GM should determine whether ammunition and explosives should explode. It is GM fiat, just like bovine bombardment, granted a higher Force fireball should have a better chance of triggering a sympathetic detonation, but it is still determined by the GM.
| QUOTE (Ryu) |
| Or disallow buying off death in case of player stupidity. I´d even put heroism on the list, because that indeed looses meaning if there is no loss involved. |
Still, there is a sacrifice, though not necessarily a permanent one.
Yeah, but giving your life for a friend is something else entirely. I´d not even opt for that rule in such a situation -what better way to go for some characters?
It's pretty immature to die for someone/something if you can live for him/her/it.
But, nevertheless, that's a decision the player has to make.
But, nevertheless, that's a decision the player has to make.
| QUOTE (toturi) | ||
Yes, it is. RAW does not have rules telling how the GM should determine whether ammunition and explosives should explode. It is GM fiat, just like bovine bombardment, granted a higher Force fireball should have a better chance of triggering a sympathetic detonation, but it is still determined by the GM. |
*checks*
True. However, there are rules for continuing "I just lit you on fire" damage.
So, the PCs take 9 damage each round until they die, or someone extinguishes them.
This is somewhat more selective, because rather than killing the entire group, you just kill the ones who were getting the feelings of invulnerability.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.