I have never played Shadowrun in any of its versions, though I have always been fascinated with it and the environment it simulates (big fan of Gibson's books )
. I have a small gaming group that I run other games in D20, old Marvel, nWOD stuff, . I am wondering if 4.0 is an "easy" enough game to pick up and run without much familiarity. I realize there will be a huge learning curve and re-reading the core book a few times to get a good grasp of where the info is located and how the game mechanics work out. Would anyone recomend jumping in on 4.0 or going back and finding 3.x in other places?

I ask here because I've read mixed reviews. Many think the rules have been organized better and streamlined and then others think it has ruined the game and made it not as playable. Since I play nWOD I realize some peoples reaction is to the new but I want to find out if it is more than that.

thanks for the info

Jump into SR4. That's my two cents at least.

Oh, and welcome to Dumpshock. Abandon all hope ye who enter here.

Look. The people who say SR4 made the game less playable hates nWOD and d20. Shadowrun is still not as easy to understand as those systems, even with the fourth edition. But at least it's a bit closer now. It's a perfect time to start up with Shadowrun. Get the new edition and every upcomming book (that you want). You'll be in the loop from the start.

I agree, SR4 is a good place to start fo a newbie.

[double post]

As people have noted the vast majority of the negative reviews have come from old timers and many of them think the system has been oversimplified and/or the developments in the game world break with the atmosphere of previous editions - ie. old time players. I've yet to see a negative review from a newcomer to the game, quite to the contrary in fact. For its faults most people agree that SR4 is the most friendly edition and has the easiest learning curve for new players.

Criminy. Let's not turn this thread into another "tastes great, less filling" debate, okay?

The only major, major objection I had making the change from SR3 to SR4 was going from "Skill + Pool" to "Stat + Skill." I just don't like the fact that a not-too-agile but highly skilled pistol shooter (Agil 2, Skill 5) is often just as effective as a stupidly agile but barely trained pistol shooter (Agil 6, Skill 1)... really doesn't sit well with me as a GM.

Asides from that, I do like the smoothness of the system, and a lot of the changes they made rolling into 4th ed from 3rd ed were for the better. Every version of the game had it's things that were broken, this one is no different... but it's easier to play. One of my players is completely new to Shadowrun (he had his second run last night), and he's learning very quickly, despite the added complication of playing a shaman his first time out.

I´ve played since SR2, and SR4 is definitly best. Those who don´t like SR4 had for the most part an, lets say "mathematical" attitude towards SR. If your group is into numbers crunching, SR3 would be better. Else, pick SR4.

The guys in my game who crunched numbers in SR3 still do it in SR4... the numbers are just simpler (and the curves smoother).

Hey Synner, Im an oldtimer, and I love SR4. Tastes just like Chicken

I understand "natural aptitude" at things... but having a natural aptitude at every single thing that uses Agility (or the stat of your choice) has always seemed a little ridiculous.

Do you think the dice pools in sr3 solved that or do you think something else could be done?

I think the new edition of Shadowrun is a good game on its own, and I think right now is a great time to be getting into it. I hope you take the time to form your own opinion of the game, and welcome to dumpshock!

Well you can always just go with the suggested rules alterations for more gritty games with having the total success on a test limited to skill rank and defaulting to 1. I'd say that puts a damper the miracles and pick-up pros.

Hm... that's really not a bad idea, *and* it's in the book. Works out a little smoother for the "natural aptitude" types, too... they're *more likely* to fill out their "max possible" successes than someone who's not apt, but the more skilled guy can succeed better, overall.

Also would reduce some of the brokenness that stems from physad "boost skill" dice.

Yeah I'm almost done all of the SR4 book and i must say it does look alot easier, and knowing SR1-3 also makes it so much easier to understand also.

I am an oltimer from SR2, too. ANd I like SR4.
Thats why Im doing all this houseruling stuff: Because its work that can be done in a finite ammount of time. Not like SR3 where one would have to reinvent the whole system.

I guess you can call me an old timer since I have been playing on and off since 1st edition. Sometimes it was painful to crunch the numbers with the first three editions. SR4 is much easier in that regard. I think SR4 will definately be easier to teach to newbies...especially in the age of D20. As long as the atmosphere is there...you know, fearing for the life of your character, knowing that they can die at anytime, having to be paranoid all the time and never trusing anyone...then SR4 can be a great game.

Here are some other things I like and dislike about SR4. The upgrades to the Matrix were much needed and logical given current technologies. Starting in about 94 or so I started wondering why the matrix wasn't wireless to begin with. The edge point system is just a bit crazy to me. It seems way too in favor of the characters unless strictly controlled by the GM...which I plan to do. SR is supposed to be gritty and deadly. It seems the edge points are giving the characters too many "get out of jail free" cards and takes planning and thinking out of the picture when doing a run, or even a chance encounter with some gangers in the street. Why not have it work the way Karma pool worked? I also agree that the ability+skill is a bit squirly, but like the suggestions others have made on keeping that under control. Turn to Goo is back!!

I still like SR2 or SR3 best, but I am going to try SR4 if I can find a group in this deadzone people call the FL Panhandle. Since I will probably be bringing players over from the dark side (d20 DnD), then a system that is easier to understand will be needed.

@eidolon:
Those who like to calculate odds and effects are better of with SR3. The vehicle creation rules alone ensure that.

Explain the extend of my sillyness without claiming I said there´s no number crunching in SR4. I do think he wanted opinions.

Unfortunately though SR4 reduced the pain somewhat it would be misleading to say it is a finely polished, incredibly smooth running system. There is still a lot in the system, but the different parts of the system have become more consistant with each other. Also the number of steps in of many portions of the system have been reduced so it is lot smoother, relatively speaking. Enough that it should be bearable if not paletable to most gamers that are used to modern P&P.

@ fsux : SR4 is still deadly, if not more deadly than in the past. Try tossing a few grenades and see what happens! Edge helps PCs out, but Glitches come up far more often than all 1's use to. I in a few years of SR3 I can recall one Rule of 1 on more than 3 dice, and that was with 4 dice, but I've seen at least 3 Glitches on 8 or MORE dice (none of those ones were Critical Glitches). I don't recall a session without at least a single Glitch, upwards of 3 is pretty typical.

You have to remember there is no more pulling your hoop out of the fire with Combat Pool. Also if the GM is giving Edge to the NPCs and using it effectively Edge actually INCREASES the deadliness of the game. Unless your sessions are really short or the way you game tends to lead to few rolls you don't need to turn down Edge past a full refresh per session.

Those who like to calculate odds and effects will do so in any game system that you run for them. I have a player that has twinked 7 game systems to date. It's the player, not the system. Those that care about the numbers enough to turn it into "math" will do so, and people that just take the numbers at face value and play will do it their way.

You made a blanket statement that a group of people will just generally like one over the other based on one small aspect of that group's gaming enjoyment. You basically, in essence, stated that number crunchers don't pay any attention to other parts of the game, and that as long as they have a lot of wonky math and numbers to crunch, they'll ignore the rest of a game or system. Silly.

eidolon, I understand the "keeping the SR world separate from our own" but since I have been a computer/networking geek since the early 90's I kinda think that way...

Blakkie, as far as the game being deadlier, I guess I will find out when I finally play. I am hoping you are correct, and as I said, I plan to monitor the edge thing closely until I see how it really plays out in my games.

The only thing I really have pains about with starting at SR4 with new people isn't the mechanics, it is all the kewl sh*t from the earlier versions that they will miss out on...like the Universal Brotherhood adventure (Missing Blood) or Harlequin. All that stuff is now history. If I can find some way to use the current system, but start the timeline back before the wireless matrix in the 2050's, then that would be ideal. Introduce the new stuff to them through the game and as time goes by... Maybe FanPro will do a supplement to help with the conversions...if there isn't already a forum somewhere addressing the issue.

Just another silly opinion for the noob. I have played since 1st Ed, and I really like the flow of 4th edition. Our gaming sessions are fairly short 3 to 4 hour affairs, and I like the much quicker resolutions of Hacking, Combat, etc. I really liked 3rd Edition as well. There is a crazy amount of Game Mechanic source material to choose from. From a GM's "feel" point of view, I like running 4th Ed much better. While the layout isn't perfect, all your rules sets will be in one book. There will be some vagaries at times, but you can fudge a bit more by adding or subtracting dice or setting a higher threshold in 4th ed than coming up with some crazy target number modifier or looking some obscure table for a particular skill in a book you may not have in 3rd Edition. And as a GM, the 4th Ed still "feels" the same as the 3rd Ed game I ran. It's still lethal, magic will still smoke your ass, and you still do criminal activity for anyone willing to pay.
I recommend as a noob to go with 4th Ed, but if you go 3rd Ed, just start with the main book and introduce the other rules sets later. (But if you want FUN vehicle combat, definitely go with 4th Ed. OK, I sound like a 4th Ed Pimp now, so I'll stop. If it says Shadowrun, it has to be good, no matter what flavor!

FSUX, it could be worse, at least the D&D players in the area know what dice are, otherwise your dealing with nothing but VtM LARPers.

shudders

That my friend is the true darkside

Yeah, true....very true. The Vampire LARPers I have met scare me...

I guess my concern with the Edge point system stems from the fact that the SR games I used to play in/run were not heavy on the Karma. If you were using Karma, it was rare and really was to save your butt. You used it very sparingly because it did not refresh until the end of the run, and you had to have it when it counted. It seems that a starting character in SR4 starts out with so many second chances. Though, I guess if you throw NPCs with edge at them they will learn real quick the value of the system. Even so, starting characters in SR2 or 3 got one point to save their hoop, not (stat x dice) times. Again, I guess I can't truly judge it until I get to play...and that could take a while.

Just keep in mind that Edge is covering off what use to be covered by Karma Pool, Combat Pool, Magic Pool, other assorted task pools, and the new use of negating Glitches. You only get as many uses of it as you have Edge, even if it can equate to a lot of dice due to squaring. If the NPCs are also using it effectively, or are taking actions that cause you to use Edge, you go through Edge quite quickly.

Yes, the one use only limitation on Hand Of God is no longer in RAW. But if you are burning multiple permanent points for HoG you'll likely find your character falling behind in ability because they are channeling their karma off from advancing their skills and attributes.

Edge is powerful, but my character with 6 points in it is usually running short by the end of a 5 hour session, that is with careful rationing. I've also managed to roll a Glitch when I included Edge in a roll, and you aren't allowed to fix that Glitch by spending a second point of Edge. I also am not caviler about spending 18 points of karma worth of Edge to try avoid death, or worse. If I had done that even just once in 5 sessions I would have used up nearly all of the karma my character has earned.

Since you have already stated that you never played any of the earlier versions you can pretty much just ignore all the SR3 vs. SR4 bizness... It is like dogpoop around here, you just have to watch out for it and step over it.

I have just started myself (as GM), and the whole group I am playing with is new to shadowrun too. The earlier material is really good for just giving you a feel for the universe. As far as getting started, I would download one of the homemade character generator applications that several people have made. This will shave about four hours per person off the uptake. Next, look for The homemade GM screen, it is very nicely done and super helpful.

Thats where I am at. Then instead of a long and grueling "learn the system" session. I would just have a brief overview of the Game mechanics, and Combat and then throw the whole team up against a bunch of mean guys, and learn the combat system that that way. Include a meanie Magician if you team has one, and perhaps a small army of drones for any hacker to contend with.

It will be slow going at first, but a fun, cooperative way to get started.

I hope

My 2 cents...

I've ran games in shadowrun 3rd, and have a stockpile of 2nd books to fall back on for source material.

Simply put, 3rd was always, to me, a giant mess of different systems bolted together and sort of smeared into each other until it sort of looked homogenous. Sort of like AD&D with THAC0 and AC and saving throws being unintuitive.

That being said, I loved the system. SR is one of the few systems that I will just pick up and read, and re-read, again and again for the sheer joy of the game.

I'll say start up with SR4. It seems, so far, and I'm still working through it, to be closest to the systems you're familliar to. Then go to ebay or your Friendly Neighborhood Gaming Store and see if you can pick up a used copy of SR1 or SR2. If that doesn't work, peek into ebay and see if you can get one of these core books on the cheap. Then go find a couple of old sourcebooks for flavor and to see what shadowrun was really like. I reccomend Shadowrun Compendium (excellent resource overall, even without the crunchy numbers being relevant), the corporate download sourcebook (It's out of date in SR4, but gives you an AMAZING feeling for the corporations), and maybe say the underworld book for the mafia, triad, etc. Those are the three source books I used almost constantly, and I tended to use them for inspiration as opposed to crunchy numbers. I think it was the SRC that had the Johnson's guide to hiring shadowrunners (i'd have to look it up) which is required reading for GMs IMHO.

A lot of the balance issues you'll see are dependant on the scope of your game too I'd say. In a game where a SMG is the equivalent of a tacnuke (say, in a dirt-poor gang setting where pipes and bats are the norm), then you won't have to worry about how effective riggers are or whatnot.

Think outside the box too. For example... Best game I ever ran? Claims adjusters for DocWagon. After a particualrly messy extraction, the PCs were sent in to investigate the situation and see if a rate "adjustment" was required, or if the claim would be rejected, or whatnot. Lots of action, lots of roleplaying, and kind of had a film noir feel to all of it. Good times.