Full Version: Serbitars Packages
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Feb 22 2006, 09:26 PM) |
| Or go the opposite extreme, where 4IP characters either sacrificed 83% or more of their available resourced to reaction-enhancing 'ware, or have accumulated enough karma that in the old days they'd have karma pools of 20 or more. In this direction 4IP characters would be terrifying monsters, inspiring the mage's level of "Geek that guy first!" mentality. Which is, well, where Shadowrun seems to be already. How many characters are there that can get that magic 4th IP without essentially crippling every other aspect of their character? |
How about a jumped in Techno Rigger with combat drones and 13 karma?
Or a modest 160,000 nuyen during character creation and an extra 80,000 after, taking up a total of 1.5 Essense? Cheap enough for even Adepts to take.
What the SR4 RAW system does is keep punk NPCs relavant longer instead of quickly becoming punching bags. Depending on your game it isn't that long to reach the 4th IP for some character types, and anything short of the 10 segment example below has that jump to 3rd a very important one. One that is quite readily attainable, even at chargen.
What TinkerGnome's segment one creates 2 big tier jumps and on little one from 2-3. Sebitars is better in that it only creates the 1 big tier jump, but it is going from 2 to 3 which fairly common at chargen so you seperate the augmenteds into haves and have nots instead of it into augmented and not.
To better get away from the problem of creating expanded gaps between the IP values at some tiers but not others you'd need to go to either 7 or a full 10. For example:
| CODE |
Segment A 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 - - - x - - - 2 - - x - x - - 3 - x - x - x - 4 x - x - x - x Segment A 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1 - - - - x - - - - - 2 - - x - - - x - - - 3 - x - - - x - - x - 4 x - - x - - - x - x |
You can see in the last one the very extreme where the IP completely determines the order, the only thing that the Initiative roll is used for is to determine within a given IP. What that mostly does is enforce that IP 3 will go before IP 2, although it does give IP 4 two actions before IP 1. Pretty hard to avoid that though and keep 3 increased power jumps.
EDIT Although I suppose you could slide the second IP 4 from segment 4 to segment 5 and pull the IP 1 forward to segment 4. Then in becomes very similar to RAW only with any chance of a lower IP rolling higher than a higher IP removed.
Of course now we have a full chart to run off of, but you definately still get the extra weighting to the IP. ---- Not that it is really needed given the already large benefits of each extra IP already in RAW.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) | ||
Another possible path to take is to just take the HERO system outline above and remove the last two rows. This would add in a virtual fifth pass, but more evenly space out actions, ergo:
In this case the guy with four IPs would certainly go twice, but definately not three times, before the 1IP guy would get to act. Anyway, it's all theory at this point; none of this is official, so it's not like you're "forced" to implement anything. |
If you condense 2 and 3 togehter you got my 3-1-4-2 system . . .
Some further things to discuss:
- Why is astral combat willpower, though astral agility is logic?
- What about making cyberware upgradeable, but bioware not (you would have to buy the difference from 2-3 to go from 2-3 in cyberware, but you would have to pay 0-3 to go from 2-3 in bioware)?
If you don't like the cut and dried order of the speed chart (or don't want to refer to a chart) you can steal the init system from 7th sea and do the following: Every characters rolls a number of d6 equal to thier init passes. The numbers showing are the 'phases' of the round that they will act on (starting at phase 1). Where two characters (or more) are acting in the same phase, the one with the highest total goes first. If the totals are the same, compare reaction.
Example:
A fight involves:
Speed bunny (3 IP)
Kinda wired guy (2 IP)
Mid-life crisis man (1IP)
and 3 goons
They all roll:
Speed bunny rolls 1, 5, 6
Kinda wired guy 5 and 5
Mid-life crisis man 1
Goon 1 rolls 4
Goon 2 rolls 5
Goon 3 rolls 2
In phase 1 both speed bunny and Mid-life crisis man act, as speed bunnys total (1+5+6=12) is higher that Mid-life crisis man's, Speed Bunny goes first.
In phase 2, goon 3 acts.
In phase 3, no-one acts
In phase 4, Goon 1 acts
In phase 5, Goon 2, Kinda Wired Guy, and Spped bunny all go
Speed Bunny Goes first (total 11, vs 10, and 5)
Then Kinda wired guy (10 vs 5)
Then Kinda Wired guy again (his total matches the total of goon 2, but his reaction is higher)
Then, finally, goon 2
In phase 6, Speed bunny goes, and the round is over.
This makes combat much more dangerous, as you cannot 'count' on going before someone all of the time. This makes the 'surpirse action' that much more important, as you get an action first.
Example:
A fight involves:
Speed bunny (3 IP)
Kinda wired guy (2 IP)
Mid-life crisis man (1IP)
and 3 goons
They all roll:
Speed bunny rolls 1, 5, 6
Kinda wired guy 5 and 5
Mid-life crisis man 1
Goon 1 rolls 4
Goon 2 rolls 5
Goon 3 rolls 2
In phase 1 both speed bunny and Mid-life crisis man act, as speed bunnys total (1+5+6=12) is higher that Mid-life crisis man's, Speed Bunny goes first.
In phase 2, goon 3 acts.
In phase 3, no-one acts
In phase 4, Goon 1 acts
In phase 5, Goon 2, Kinda Wired Guy, and Spped bunny all go
Speed Bunny Goes first (total 11, vs 10, and 5)
Then Kinda wired guy (10 vs 5)
Then Kinda Wired guy again (his total matches the total of goon 2, but his reaction is higher)
Then, finally, goon 2
In phase 6, Speed bunny goes, and the round is over.
This makes combat much more dangerous, as you cannot 'count' on going before someone all of the time. This makes the 'surpirse action' that much more important, as you get an action first.
that seems....whacked... what happens if someone rolls multiples? they get to take multiple actions in a pass?
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| If you condense 2 and 3 togehter you got my 3-1-4-2 system . . . |
What's funny is that I originally commented on this because I dislike 3-1-4-2 in favor of 4-1-3-2. The rest is just an extension of that discussion. I dislike 3-1-4-2 because it puts the power jump within the reach of most starting characters. At least with 4-1-3-2, the bulk of characters with 4IP have dedicated very significant resources (the techno rigger being an exception) to it.
I don't know if it's been said, but doesn't the new full dodge rules somewhat solve this problem with faster characters not really being faster? Now a character with lots of IP's will be able to coldly take his time and easily take down the slower guy when he's flat footed.
The scenario everybody feared in SR3 was something like the 3 IP guy facing 2 guys with only 1 IP, and inevitably getting shot when he should have been able to get them both before they were able to blink. In SR4 that scenario would play out like this: Fast guy goes first, shoots one of the other guys. The one left acts, shoots fast guy. Fast guy goes full dodge and propably comes clean. Fast guy acts again and shoots the one left. I can buy that.
The scenario everybody feared in SR3 was something like the 3 IP guy facing 2 guys with only 1 IP, and inevitably getting shot when he should have been able to get them both before they were able to blink. In SR4 that scenario would play out like this: Fast guy goes first, shoots one of the other guys. The one left acts, shoots fast guy. Fast guy goes full dodge and propably comes clean. Fast guy acts again and shoots the one left. I can buy that.
That is right, but a 3-1-4-2 or 4-1-3-2 just "feels" more natural.
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome @ Feb 23 2006, 08:27 AM) |
| I dislike 3-1-4-2 because it puts the power jump within the reach of most starting characters. At least with 4-1-3-2, the bulk of characters with 4IP have dedicated very significant resources (the techno rigger being an exception) to it. |
Thats true, but consider: 3 IPs are thrice as much as 1 IP, that should lead to a decisive difference. And the 3-1-4-2 reflects just that. Furthermore it fulfills most of my criteria mentioned above.
| QUOTE (Serbitar @ Feb 23 2006, 08:45 AM) |
| Thats true, but consider: 3 IPs are thrice as much as 1 IP, that should lead to a decisive difference. |
I'm not sure how you are coming to thrice, sounds a lot like superstitious mathematics. But that aside in RAW play you haven't noticed a decisive difference between 3 IP and 1 IP characters? Or even a lesser though still very decisive difference between 2 IP and 1 IP characters?
| QUOTE (Aku) |
| that seems....whacked... what happens if someone rolls multiples? they get to take multiple actions in a pass? |
Yes. Note that in the example, Kinsa Wired Guy goes twice in phase 5, as he rolled two 5s.
| QUOTE (Brahm) | ||
I'm not sure how you are coming to thrice, sounds a lot like superstitious mathematics. But that aside in RAW play you haven't noticed a decisive difference between 3 IP and 1 IP characters? Or even a lesser though still very decisive difference between 2 IP and 1 IP characters? |
3 = 3 x 1. That's thrice in my book. Normal math though.But a 3IP char, in our games at least, did always have the upper hand.
| QUOTE (Darkness @ Feb 23 2006, 02:24 PM) | ||||
3 = 3 x 1. That's thrice in my book. Normal math though.But a 3IP char, in our games at least, did always have the upper hand. |
Ah, I thought he ment costing thrice as much or something wierd.
Because if you are doing that then it is so obvious that those with 3 IP get 3 times as many actions with the same combat turn. Assuming they haven't terminated the 1 IP character before that.
It is defined by the IP. 3 IP is 3 times as many actions per turn as 1 IP. It is a definition thing.
| QUOTE |
- the karma system can be done by simply using the character advancement costs - Metahumans get modifiers after buying base up. Resulting changes in power level are accepted. - "stealthy" pool reduction has issues with well-rolling GMs - positive mods are ok, as the event horizon is unchanged - I don´t get what your fix to cyberware scanners does. Just make cyberware more common so that cyberware!=criminal. Or make armored clothing hinder the scanners. |
| QUOTE |
-of course this could be done. A troll would have to pay 90 Karma to go from strength 8 to 10, though. Same for body. At least for me, thats not acceptable. - well rolling GMs are amatter of superstition. My calculations are not based on superstition - illegal cyberware is marked with F. If you have it, you are either a military person, or a criminal. Nothing changes that. |
- No. Read what I said. Mods after base.
- No superstition, statistics. Both rolls are perfectly uncorrelated, so while the average hit from reduced dice = 0, a negative number of hits is suddenly possible. And how would you decide on glitches? Note that is an issue of reduced dice pools only.
- with a large number of sec companies and corp armies, even combat cyberware of some degree will be common. certainly a need to explain, but that can be done by buying a license for your SIN. But still, your fix does nothing as far as I can see.
-Sorry, when I have misunderstood you in the attribute cost thing. If I understand you correct, you are exactly proposing what I suggested in my house rule. If not, could you give an example?
-that is, of course, correct
- my fix prevents lonestar from installing cyberware scanners everywhere and constantly scanning everybody, instantly finding illegal cyberware. I restrict effective range, suggest a timeframe,so one would have to effectively stand still to be scanned and I give measures against it (my ECM) that can totally prevent scanning.
-that is, of course, correct
- my fix prevents lonestar from installing cyberware scanners everywhere and constantly scanning everybody, instantly finding illegal cyberware. I restrict effective range, suggest a timeframe,so one would have to effectively stand still to be scanned and I give measures against it (my ECM) that can totally prevent scanning.
yeah those cyberware scanners are def. overpowered. I like your fix restricting the range.
- Yes, but without cost adjustment. I prefer as little change as necessary. Mechanically the same as yours I think. It was just an opinion either way, so disregard...
- Your welcome
. I don´t see an easy fix to this I´m afraid, but it has to be resolved if one was to use that rule.
- Consider what they are using. You are not going to install milimeter wave radar everywhere for the same reason you are not going to wear "milimeter wave ECM". DocWagon would sue LoneStar into oblivion on behalf of their customers.
- Your welcome
. I don´t see an easy fix to this I´m afraid, but it has to be resolved if one was to use that rule.- Consider what they are using. You are not going to install milimeter wave radar everywhere for the same reason you are not going to wear "milimeter wave ECM". DocWagon would sue LoneStar into oblivion on behalf of their customers.
| QUOTE (Ryu) |
| - Consider what they are using. You are not going to install milimeter wave radar everywhere for the same reason you are not going to wear "milimeter wave ECM". DocWagon would sue LoneStar into oblivion on behalf of their customers. |
Well, apparently lawsuits aren't as big a deterent as they used to be. If they were people wouldn't be walking around with radio wave emitters implanted with every piece of 'ware that everyone apparently just sort of keeps on by default.
... maybe there should be another thread started just for arguing the most finite details of system mechanics...
Serbitar wants to talk about his package... and so we do.
Concering the wavelength-problem:
http://imagers.gsfc.nasa.gov/ems/waves3.html
and
http://imagers.gsfc.nasa.gov/ems/waves4.html
concering the produced energy. I´d just say that placing said scanners everywhere is forbidden.
Concering the wavelength-problem:
http://imagers.gsfc.nasa.gov/ems/waves3.html
and
http://imagers.gsfc.nasa.gov/ems/waves4.html
concering the produced energy. I´d just say that placing said scanners everywhere is forbidden.
| QUOTE (Ryu) |
| concering the produced energy. I´d just say that placing said scanners everywhere is forbidden. |
The problem is, those scanners aren't emitting anything. They just "film" whats coming from the target. They're practically cameras, filming in a different spectrum.
The technology already exists:
http://www.designnews.com/article/CA181405.html
http://www.elva-1.com/products/industrial/...ave_camera.html
It's not nearly as sophisticated as in SR4, but it's already there.
Since nothing is emitted, they could be placed everywhere, like cameras. They are non-invasive.
Didn´t know that a passive system is possible. Thanks Darkness!
Serbitar: Problem admitted. I suggest widely spread combatware-licences as fix (ex-military, ex-security, bounty hunters, couriers, bodyguards). A no-rules solution.
Reducing scanner range does nothing at RAW system cost.
Serbitar: Problem admitted. I suggest widely spread combatware-licences as fix (ex-military, ex-security, bounty hunters, couriers, bodyguards). A no-rules solution.
Reducing scanner range does nothing at RAW system cost.
That would change the game in a way I do not want to. I do not want everybody and his brother (widely spread) running arround with forbidden Cyberware.
I want runners to HAVE problems, when caught with illegal cyberware (instead of them just pulling out their permit), but I do not want to make running impossible by the scanner thing. Thus my house rules.
I want runners to HAVE problems, when caught with illegal cyberware (instead of them just pulling out their permit), but I do not want to make running impossible by the scanner thing. Thus my house rules.
How does reducing the range help? You can still scan everyone at strategical locations.
ECM can be noticed.
ECM can be noticed.
1. You can use ECM. In most "automated scurity" areas, nobody will go the additional distance to scan for electronic devices that could be ECM. Especially, as there is no device in the rules, that does this. (I know that it can be noticed, I explicitly give an example in my SGP)
2. You can defend yourself by following the simple advice:
- stay away from drones and installations
- keep moving
What you get:
- Having illegal cyberware, and thus Shadowrunning, is possible, as you can not be detected efortlessly by routine scans if you know what to do
- when you are explicitly scanned and searched (searches that go so deeps to find ECM for example), you are in trouble. You can not pull out the "permit everything" llicense.
Both things are desireable in a consistent game wold. At least in mine.
2. You can defend yourself by following the simple advice:
- stay away from drones and installations
- keep moving
What you get:
- Having illegal cyberware, and thus Shadowrunning, is possible, as you can not be detected efortlessly by routine scans if you know what to do
- when you are explicitly scanned and searched (searches that go so deeps to find ECM for example), you are in trouble. You can not pull out the "permit everything" llicense.
Both things are desireable in a consistent game wold. At least in mine.
| QUOTE (Serbitar @ Feb 23 2006, 10:30 AM) |
| - Why is astral combat willpower, though astral agility is logic? |
Because you do not fight like in the real world. It's more a test of wills, than who's faster and more accurate. Or something like that.
Of course, the question then remains, why astrally perceiving characters use physical attributes and skills (unless I got that wrong, that is).
Bye
Thanee
| QUOTE (Thanee) | ||
Because you do not fight like in the real world. It's more a test of wills, than who's faster and more accurate. Or something like that. Of course, the question then remains, why astrally perceiving characters use physical attributes and skills (unless I got that wrong, that is). Bye Thanee |
They don't. They use their mental attributes to determine the "physical" attributes of their astral form.
| QUOTE (Thanee) | ||
Because you do not fight like in the real world. It's more a test of wills, than who's faster and more accurate. Or something like that. |
It is better to think of astral combat as a battle of minds, rather than a battle of wills. Besides, all of the other combat skills are linked to Agility, so why not astral combat?
If you stick with the RAW, Astral Combat slightly favors Shamans over Mages. That's because Logic never gets used in Astral Combat, which is an area of strength for most Mages. OTOH, Charisma is the corresponding area of strength for most Shamans, and that gets used for dealing damage.
Or to put it another way: all else being equal, the magician with the higher Charisma is more likely to win. But all else being equal, the one with the higher Logic isn't any more likely to win.
Well, by the RAW, you fight with Astral Combat +Willpower while astrally perceiving, and +logic while projecting.
You can only use your superior mental speed when you left your body behind. While half-physical, you use the force of your will.
You can only use your superior mental speed when you left your body behind. While half-physical, you use the force of your will.
| QUOTE (Ryu) |
| Well, by the RAW, you fight with Astral Combat +Willpower while astrally perceiving, and +logic while projecting. You can only use your superior mental speed when you left your body behind. While half-physical, you use the force of your will. |
Well the linked attribute for Astral Combat is Willpower, and it doesn't say that this changes while projecting.
It does.
Ok, that will not help this time either. Check the astral combat rules, not the skill listing.
Ok, that will not help this time either. Check the astral combat rules, not the skill listing.
Updated to
SHP v 1.7
SGP v1.3
Changes:
Switched to LaTeX. Added priorities to rules suggestions. Expanded SGP by a Johnson section (The Dance, work in progress) with a suggested money baseline. Added a fluff section to show some effects of wireless world on day to day life and runners (Hunting, work in progress).
SHP v 1.7
SGP v1.3
Changes:
Switched to LaTeX. Added priorities to rules suggestions. Expanded SGP by a Johnson section (The Dance, work in progress) with a suggested money baseline. Added a fluff section to show some effects of wireless world on day to day life and runners (Hunting, work in progress).
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.