Specifically I'm trying to determine if bows still have a weapon mount that can take a sight.
Full Version: Weapon Mounts
So I can't find a list of which weapons have what mounts available for SR4. Am I just blind and it's in plain sight in the book? I found reference to what weapon mounts mean even, but again, no mounts!
Specifically I'm trying to determine if bows still have a weapon mount that can take a sight.
Specifically I'm trying to determine if bows still have a weapon mount that can take a sight.
Page 301-302. Int the box.
Only laser sight and smartgun systems for projectile weapon.
Only laser sight and smartgun systems for projectile weapon.
As a follow-up to that question... if a specific weapon (i.e. FN HAR) says it has a built-in accessory (i.e. GasVent), does that take up the appropriate mount (i.e. barrel mount), or can you add something else there (i.e. Sound Suppresser)?
Bye
Thanee
Bye
Thanee
Yes. A GasVent is a GasVent, pre-mounted or not. If not stated otherwise in the description text.
Actually, that changed since the last edition. Integral items do not take up slots in SR4.
The only thing forbidden now is putting an external GasVent on an internal one.
It changed? Really? COOL!!! 
hmm, very interesting indeed. it makes the slivergun less broken then before, or what? alltho, its maybe the wrong way of attacking the imbalance of said gun by upping the abilitys of the other guns...
still, being able to combo a gasvent and a silencer sounds to me a bit fishy given that a gasvent would basicly make said silencer useless (silencers work by trapping gasses and thereby lowering the noise the gun makes, iirc).
still, being able to combo a gasvent and a silencer sounds to me a bit fishy given that a gasvent would basicly make said silencer useless (silencers work by trapping gasses and thereby lowering the noise the gun makes, iirc).
That's probably the reason why those weapons use a sound suppressor instead 
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Silencer, suppressor, same thing thing. You can't trap the muzzle gasses indefinitely in any case, you just have to slow them down so that when they ARE released they're subsonic. Theoretically, a gas vent could work there by venting all the gas from the suppressor upwards, though it would prbably be less effective because subsonic gas would provide less force over a longer period.
The internal GasVent probably works in a different way than the external one.
It's high-tech, that's almost like magic.
Bye
Thanee
It's high-tech, that's almost like magic.
Bye
Thanee
You could always house rule in range reductions (based on the loss of propellent gasses) for using Supressors and Gas Vents if you are concerned about these being game breakers. Personally I'm not to worried about it, it will work against PC's as often as for them.
| QUOTE (nick012000) |
| Actually, that changed since the last edition. Integral items do not take up slots in SR4. |
Is there a page reference for this?
Pg 301 & 302 Gear Ratings Sidebar:
Mounts: Shows where a weapon accesory can be attached to a weapon: Underbarrel, Barrel, or Top-Mount. Only one accessory can be attached to a particular mount. Integral accessories (those that come with the weapon) don't take up mount locations. Hold-outs don't have mounts. Pistols (including machine pistols) have a top mount and a barrel mount. SMG's, all rifles, and heavy weapons have a top mount, barrel mount, and underbarrel mount. Projectile weapons can only be equipped with a laser sight or a smartgun system.
Mounts: Shows where a weapon accesory can be attached to a weapon: Underbarrel, Barrel, or Top-Mount. Only one accessory can be attached to a particular mount. Integral accessories (those that come with the weapon) don't take up mount locations. Hold-outs don't have mounts. Pistols (including machine pistols) have a top mount and a barrel mount. SMG's, all rifles, and heavy weapons have a top mount, barrel mount, and underbarrel mount. Projectile weapons can only be equipped with a laser sight or a smartgun system.
While I donīt know the problems of this combination in reality (I assume harder-but-doable with some tradeoffs), the rules are pretty clear. Much rejoicing!
| QUOTE (Ryu) |
| While I donīt know the problems of this combination in reality (I assume harder-but-doable with some tradeoffs) [...] |
It's just plain undoable in reality. The gas vent/muzzle brake depends on high velocity propellant gases being ejected in certain directions to reduce and negate part of the force of recoil. The sound suppressor traps and slowly releases the gases. The two work at cross purposes and cannot function together. (The kind of setup Dafmeister mentioned above would require a really funky sound suppressor design and the reduction of recoil beyond that provided by a conventional design would be insignificant. So I guess it's "harder-but-doable" if you consider a complete lack of effect a tradeoff.)
On the upside, a (real-life) sound suppressor also significantly reduces the felt recoil of a firearm, possibly by as much as a muzzle brake.
| QUOTE (stevebugge) |
| You could always house rule in range reductions (based on the loss of propellent gasses) for using Supressors and Gas Vents if you are concerned about these being game breakers. |
Propellant gases aren't "lost" when using either sound suppressors or gas vents. Muzzle velocity is not affected by gas venting at the muzzle -- the propellant gases still push the projectile right up to the muzzle at full force. Certain sound suppressor designs actually increase the velocity of the projectile, because the expansion chamber acts like a slightly extended barrel.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
It's just plain undoable in reality. The gas vent/muzzle brake depends on high velocity propellant gases being ejected in certain directions to reduce and negate part of the force of recoil. The sound suppressor traps and slowly releases the gases. The two work at cross purposes and cannot function together. (The kind of setup Dafmeister mentioned above would require a really funky sound suppressor design and the reduction of recoil beyond that provided by a conventional design would be insignificant. So I guess it's "harder-but-doable" if you consider a complete lack of effect a tradeoff.) |
Unless you're using a future-tech speaker supressor that works by emitting destructively interfering sound waves to cancel out the noise of the weapon firing.
Is there something in SR4 that suggests sound suppressors work like that?
At least back in the 2060s "sound suppressor" still referred to the same type of design as it does today, except being built out of really crappy, non-heat-resistant materials.
At least back in the 2060s "sound suppressor" still referred to the same type of design as it does today, except being built out of really crappy, non-heat-resistant materials.
For some reason this conversation sounds very familiar, right down to the same two posters. 
That's because nick012000 have opposite methods of dealing with problems in SR: I want to argue about them, he wants to excuse them. 
Well, the rules are still pretty clear
Itīs now officially SOTA to do both.
Itīs now officially SOTA to do both.
As long as either the suppressor or the vent is built into the weapon
You know what's really scary? The Ingram Smartgun-X, with it's integral gas vent AND sound suppressor, can also mount a barrel-mounted laser sight. Holy bulbous barrels, Batman!
You know what's really scary? The Ingram Smartgun-X, with it's integral gas vent AND sound suppressor, can also mount a barrel-mounted laser sight. Holy bulbous barrels, Batman!
Great, just great: A Swiss Army Gun.
Additionally take a re-read of the imaging scope on Pg 311 and then catalogue the available options on pg 323.
New question can you link your Smartgun to your Imaging Scope?
Additionally take a re-read of the imaging scope on Pg 311 and then catalogue the available options on pg 323.
New question can you link your Smartgun to your Imaging Scope?
| QUOTE (stevebugge) |
| New question can you link your Smartgun to your Imaging Scope? |
Why bother? You can add imaging accessories to the smartgun camera now. So you've already got an imaging scope built in to the smartgun system.
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) | ||
Why bother? You can add imaging accessories to the smartgun camera now. So you've already got an imaging scope built in to the smartgun system. |
I agree there really isn't any point. Mostly it's just after a detailed reading there are some peculiarities, for example it looks like you could either link your smartlink to itself (really pointless) or daisy chain smartlinks (again not sure why you would). Just another example of rules vagueness I guess.
Actually maybe there is a point to a smartgun system in a top mounted imaging scope, you'd have a self contained smartgun (though the neural command features would be disabled) that you could just grab and use without the need for putting on goggles or glasses. Still not that useful if you've got cybereyes.
It would appear you can add vision enhancements like flare compensation to a Smartgun System, but Vision Magnification is a seperate item from Vision Enhancements, so I'm not sure they can be combined.
Thanks for pointing out the original reference. I admit I'm a bit baffled though that you can't add a traditional scope/vision magnification system to a bow.
Thanks for pointing out the original reference. I admit I'm a bit baffled though that you can't add a traditional scope/vision magnification system to a bow.
You can stuff any Vision Enhancement available into an RFID after the rules...
The only disadvantage is perhaps the range limit, where the smartguns camera would qualify as small sensor.
The only disadvantage is perhaps the range limit, where the smartguns camera would qualify as small sensor.
| QUOTE (Shrike30) |
| You know what's really scary? The Ingram Smartgun-X, with it's integral gas vent AND sound suppressor, can also mount a barrel-mounted laser sight. Holy bulbous barrels, Batman! |
And yet, somehow, it can't fire single rounds. The miracle of over-engineering! Clearly, Ares IS the successor to GM...
| QUOTE (ascendance) | ||
And yet, somehow, it can't fire single rounds. The miracle of over-engineering! Clearly, Ares IS the successor to GM... |
Maybe you can get SA as a barrel mounted add-on
The other question is how many add-ons can go on a gun before it looks like you just welded on the exhaust system from a Harley?
| QUOTE (ascendance @ Feb 27 2006, 02:02 PM) | ||
And yet, somehow, it can't fire single rounds. The miracle of over-engineering! Clearly, Ares IS the successor to GM... |
My gun has two settings: dead and deader.
It isnt a bug, its a feature. With the recoil reduction of the gas vent and the folding stock there is no reason to ever fire semiauto and without the stock you only suffer -1 on the second burst (if any), just link an uncompensated semi-automatic.
No reason ever? What about conserving ammo?
Or conserving decibels for that matter.
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| No reason ever? What about conserving ammo? |
Isn't that what the bayonet is for?
In all seriousness, I've generally seen runners carry back up weapons. If the Smartgun isn't the right tool for the job, they pull out the hvy pistol, survival knife, whatever they happen to think is the right tool.
I can't imagine why BF or FA would have higher peak decibel levels than SA. It would just last longer. (gun gurus correct me if this is wrong) Of course, it would be easier to perceive because there is a longer window of time to listen to and interpret the sound, so the point remains valid. I'll shut about about minor symmantic quibbles now.
McQuillan: good point
McQuillan: good point
I figured the argument that SA would be pointless in the weapon was only meant to be considered in light of a literal reading of the rules and not any real factors, like dB. If real-life logic were a factor, it would be incredibly stupid for the gun not to have a semi-auto mode of fire.
I agree with that, I don't think the Smartgun was ever intended to be a subtle weapon
I think the sound suppresser is only in there to get that mighty cool whizzing sound when firing the weapon. 
Bye
Thanee
Bye
Thanee
| QUOTE (nick012000) |
| It's just plain undoable in reality. |
Look at early gas operated semi autos, such as the M-1 Garand. These systems are basic gas venting systems. An early Springfield experiment uses a pair of pistons, mounted underneath the barrel - inside the barrel stock/foregrip. The gas is vented through ports near the muzzle, loops back to the rear of the piston cylinders (just short of the breach - magazine well assembly), forcing the pistons towards the weapon's muzzle against spring pressure. When the pistons have reached the end of their travel, they expose another set of ports that then vent subsonic gases to either side of the weapon in addition to the gases that escape from the breach as the bolt assembly slides back, openning the chamber, and from the muzzle as the bullet exits the barrel. Springfield did not bring this system to market, not because it was in effective (quite the opposite), but because it was difficult to maintain. Powder residue caused it to clog and jam quickly. The M-1's gas operated bolt system is a spin off from this experiment. According to Sprinfield documents, the OSS commisioned 100 of rifles with this system. Test records show a nearly 70% reduction in muzzle blast using the experimental system.
That was me who said that.
The gas redirection in the M1 action that you described would not provide a noticeable reduction of felt recoil above and beyond that which you already get by using a sound suppressor on a firearm.
Gas Vents in Shadowrun work specifically by redirecting high-velocity propellant gases in such a way as to minimize felt recoil/loss of accuracy due to felt recoil. Redirecting most of the propellant gases to escape the barrel near the muzzle at high enough a velocity to achieve this effect directly counters the advantages of a sound suppressor.
The gas redirection in the M1 action that you described would not provide a noticeable reduction of felt recoil above and beyond that which you already get by using a sound suppressor on a firearm.
Gas Vents in Shadowrun work specifically by redirecting high-velocity propellant gases in such a way as to minimize felt recoil/loss of accuracy due to felt recoil. Redirecting most of the propellant gases to escape the barrel near the muzzle at high enough a velocity to achieve this effect directly counters the advantages of a sound suppressor.
As I said, the M-1's bolt system is a spin off from the gas vent recoil experiment. the experiment is what has the significant noise reduction.
I'm not getting it. Are you disagreeing with my earlier statement that SR-style Gas Vents and sound suppressors don't mix? Is the M1 action you described supposed to be an example of them coexisting (which I would disagree with, as above) or not?
If the gun can mount both but they are logically mutually exclusive, why not just make the player pay a small fee for a PAN/smartlink component that toggles them? "OK, as I sneak up on him, I mentally close my gas vents and dilate the silencer"
"OK, no problem, don't even roll. Your touch link gives you the sensation of warm goat's milk on your thighs to silently let you know the vents are closed"
It's not like if you are right behind a guy with a submachine gun you are going to need a fully compensated second burst anyway.
"OK, no problem, don't even roll. Your touch link gives you the sensation of warm goat's milk on your thighs to silently let you know the vents are closed"
It's not like if you are right behind a guy with a submachine gun you are going to need a fully compensated second burst anyway.
I used to allow the two to be mixed as long as the gas vent was "threaded" so you could screw a sound suppressor on OVER it (meaning that with the suppressor attached, the vent didn't function). Yours sounds like a techno-fix of the same thing.
The fact that gas venting and sound suppression are mutually exclusive never really got into the SR dev mindset, so we're stuck with the RAW saying "go to town" on any gun with a built-in suppressor or vent. Ah, well...
The fact that gas venting and sound suppression are mutually exclusive never really got into the SR dev mindset, so we're stuck with the RAW saying "go to town" on any gun with a built-in suppressor or vent. Ah, well...
I thought it did say in third that you couldn't silence something with gas vent.
I could be wrong though, my computer is "near" and my SR 3 book is "far"
I could be wrong though, my computer is "near" and my SR 3 book is "far"
In SR3, the Ranger Arms SM-3 has both a Gas Vent-2 and a Silencer built in, but otherwise having both of them is impossible because built-in mods take up mounts and both require a free Barrel mount.
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