OK I don't think I have the SB with the Forgery skill in it and i can't find it in SR3 core.
Now this might sound a little dumb, but what does it do game-wise. Or what is the description of the skill?
All I gots is SR3, SR Comp, Magic in the Shadows, Cannon Companion and New Seattle.
And to top it off my friend is borrowing my books so he can make a character.
I'm using the NSRCG, but there's no description for the skills.
Full Version: Skill question
In Sprawl Survival Guide, they discuss forgery as it relates to ID creation on page 125. It goes into how you should make it the subject of several "runs", making the character do some serious work and milk their contacts as much as possible. However, there's also an alternate suggestion that you have the character make a Computer (Decking) test and that they must have the Data Archive Familiarity knowledge skill to do so. This is the only thing canon I can think of that addresses it directly ATM.
Personally, I'd never use the alternate method, as it's lame and doesn't even remotely jive with the various descriptions of what goes into making a usable ID. Not to mention that if you allow this to work, your player is going to want to start selling SINs at the canon street value.
On forgery as a skill:
IMG, there's no way I'd allow an active skill as broad as "forgery". If a character wanted to be able to forge paper documents, it'd be "Document Forgery", so on and so forth. "Forgery", and you're just begging for the player to abuse the hell out of it.
There's just too much disparity between the things that go into forging different items to boil it down to one skill roll.
Personally, I'd never use the alternate method, as it's lame and doesn't even remotely jive with the various descriptions of what goes into making a usable ID. Not to mention that if you allow this to work, your player is going to want to start selling SINs at the canon street value.
On forgery as a skill:
IMG, there's no way I'd allow an active skill as broad as "forgery". If a character wanted to be able to forge paper documents, it'd be "Document Forgery", so on and so forth. "Forgery", and you're just begging for the player to abuse the hell out of it.
There's just too much disparity between the things that go into forging different items to boil it down to one skill roll.
Thank you!
66 views to finally get an answer...
Again, thank you. The NSRCG simply has Forgery as an active skill. My original plan was to make a cat burglar, steals priceless works of art. replaces with a forgery which he made. he was going to have painting as either an active or knowledge skill. The problem would then be what's the point of forgery if i'd prolly have to use painting.
66 views to finally get an answer...
Again, thank you. The NSRCG simply has Forgery as an active skill. My original plan was to make a cat burglar, steals priceless works of art. replaces with a forgery which he made. he was going to have painting as either an active or knowledge skill. The problem would then be what's the point of forgery if i'd prolly have to use painting.
You're welcome.
If I were GMing and you wanted to have that character, I would suggest the following skills:
Active:
Painting (forgery) 5 (7)
Knowledge
<insert period> Art
Art Forgery (representing his knowledge of various techniques, and methods used to detect those techniques so he could have a chance at avoiding them)
This reflects that he's not really doing original work. Although he could if he wanted of course, he's actually better at just copying something that he's looking at. This would also keep the forgery skill limited (correctly, in my opinion) to the item being forged.
Also, keep in mind that all of this is just OTOH.
If I were GMing and you wanted to have that character, I would suggest the following skills:
Active:
Painting (forgery) 5 (7)
Knowledge
<insert period> Art
Art Forgery (representing his knowledge of various techniques, and methods used to detect those techniques so he could have a chance at avoiding them)
This reflects that he's not really doing original work. Although he could if he wanted of course, he's actually better at just copying something that he's looking at. This would also keep the forgery skill limited (correctly, in my opinion) to the item being forged.
Also, keep in mind that all of this is just OTOH.
| QUOTE (ChuckRozool @ Feb 23 2006, 11:29 PM) |
| Thank you! 66 views to finally get an answer... Again, thank you. The NSRCG simply has Forgery as an active skill. My original plan was to make a cat burglar, steals priceless works of art. replaces with a forgery which he made. he was going to have painting as either an active or knowledge skill. The problem would then be what's the point of forgery if i'd prolly have to use painting. |
If I were GM i'd make the call on painting being a knowledge skill (sculpture is knowledge skill for the sample adept), probably would then go by as a complementary skill for forgery (specialized for pantings) for that use you talked about.
Meh. As far as our games go, half of the sample skills are way too general. Forgery is just too broad a field to let someone have only one skill to do it.
Having an active skill "forgery" would mean that a character was equally good at forging a copy of the Declaration of Independence (weathering paper, handwriting mimicry, etc.) as he or she was at forging a copy of the Mona Lisa (oil painting, in that particular style, canvas choice, aging paint, etc.). It just doesn't make any sense.
That said, if it being so wide open works for your game, go for it.
Having an active skill "forgery" would mean that a character was equally good at forging a copy of the Declaration of Independence (weathering paper, handwriting mimicry, etc.) as he or she was at forging a copy of the Mona Lisa (oil painting, in that particular style, canvas choice, aging paint, etc.). It just doesn't make any sense.
That said, if it being so wide open works for your game, go for it.
If you can forge something so well that museum curators who examine art for a living can't tell your forgery from the real thing, why not just sell the forgery directly, and skip all the cat burgling?
Because if you do the theft correctly, they won't have a reason to re-examine the original closely enough to detect a forgery. In the meantime, the guy that you're doing the job for has a guy in his employ that examines art for him, so that he knows he's getting the real deal. If you screw the guy you're doing the job for, it's concrete shoes for you.
You can almost always come up with a reason that a character exists. It's in the GM job description.
You can almost always come up with a reason that a character exists. It's in the GM job description.
| QUOTE (Taran) |
| If you can forge something so well that museum curators who examine art for a living can't tell your forgery from the real thing, why not just sell the forgery directly, and skip all the cat burgling? |
It would be more of a "stall tactic"(?)
If the curators don't know the piece is missing why would they need to examine it...
The more time he has before people realize it's gone the better.
This is assuming it's not SOP for the paintings to be examined everyday.
I would think the less the paintings are disturbed the better. I know you shouldn't touch oil painting (and maybe acrylic) with your bare hands, regardless of the age of the painting.
anywho that's were i was coming from with that one
If I was creating such a character it would have these skills
knowledge
Painting (forgery) 5/6
Knowledge art (chosen period/style/forgery tequniques) 5/6
Making the forgery you would roll painting (forgery) with knowledge art (forgery) as a complementary.
You also need the standard cat burglar set
Stealth
Electronics
Athletics
Knowledge security (possibly art displays or museums)
You also need to be very certain of not setting of an alarm. If the alarm on the painting itself goes off and you replace it with a fake it will be examined (and probably discovered) if a room alarm goes of in a gallery and nothing is taken everything in the room (or possibly the gallery) will probably be examined.
If you set of an alarm its probably better to take your fake with you to avoid getting the job linked to your others (your forgeries can probably be linked together)
Edward
knowledge
Painting (forgery) 5/6
Knowledge art (chosen period/style/forgery tequniques) 5/6
Making the forgery you would roll painting (forgery) with knowledge art (forgery) as a complementary.
You also need the standard cat burglar set
Stealth
Electronics
Athletics
Knowledge security (possibly art displays or museums)
You also need to be very certain of not setting of an alarm. If the alarm on the painting itself goes off and you replace it with a fake it will be examined (and probably discovered) if a room alarm goes of in a gallery and nothing is taken everything in the room (or possibly the gallery) will probably be examined.
If you set of an alarm its probably better to take your fake with you to avoid getting the job linked to your others (your forgeries can probably be linked together)
Edward
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| Meh. As far as our games go, half of the sample skills are way too general. Forgery is just too broad a field to let someone have only one skill to do it. Having an active skill "forgery" would mean that a character was equally good at forging a copy of the Declaration of Independence (weathering paper, handwriting mimicry, etc.) as he or she was at forging a copy of the Mona Lisa (oil painting, in that particular style, canvas choice, aging paint, etc.). It just doesn't make any sense. That said, if it being so wide open works for your game, go for it. |
Well if you force specialization then the runners are going to go for the most applicable version as possible towards them on a regular basis (most likely Document Forgery for SINs, visas, licences, etc). For something specific for other areas you'd have to slant a good # of jobs to keep the skill relevant for someone who chose it as a signature active skill.
Active vs knowledge skills in SR as far as I have read/seen are not so much based around details as they are around relevancy of application. If a skill is far more applicable than another, similar skill then the more applicable skill would be an active skill and the other would be a knowledge skill. Not that this is perfect, I can see forced "specialization" being done the Stealth and Athletics skills (they shattered them in SR4, but I'd rather not derail this thread into a edition debate).
I can see Forgery in general being more about active attention to details in objects/documents and mimicing/faking such details. Higher skill mearly translates to more complex/higher quality output and/or speed in output, you don't have to experess yourself to create physical/electronic forgeries.
I'm just speaking in favor of RAW though, more power to you if you still desire to house-rule.
Well i have to thanck you guys for your input but my character has some how morphed into something completely diffent...
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?act=...=ST&f=7&t=11928
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?act=...=ST&f=7&t=11928
| QUOTE (DigitalSoul) |
| Well if you force specialization then the runners are going to go for the most applicable version as possible towards them on a regular basis (most likely Document Forgery for SINs, visas, licences, etc). For something specific for other areas you'd have to slant a good # of jobs to keep the skill relevant for someone who chose it as a signature active skill. |
Not if the player was creating a cat-burglar art-forgery specialist. Believe it or not, some players take skills that make sense for their character.
To nitpick: Document Forgery would confer no ability to make SINs. Read your canon as pertains to identification, SINs, et al. To sum up: It's all digital, there's no document to forge.
As far as having to "slant the jobs" to suit the character, that's true no matter the skill in question. (And conversely, not true regardless of the skill in question. Not every skill is useful all the time.)
| QUOTE |
| Active vs knowledge skills in SR as far as I have read/seen are not so much based around details as they are around relevancy of application. If a skill is far more applicable than another, similar skill then the more applicable skill would be an active skill and the other would be a knowledge skill. |
Relevancy and applicability are a direct result of what's going on in the game at any particular moment. I've already spoken on the fact that I don't allow broad skills in certain areas. Forgery, if chosen by a player in my game, would be one of those areas. I've also made it clear that things I'm posting in this thread are from the standpoint of "If I were GMing for this character". I honestly don't see how you've come to the conclusion you're stating, but if that's your take on it, more power to you.
| QUOTE |
| I can see Forgery in general being more about active attention to details in objects/documents and mimicing/faking such details. Higher skill mearly translates to more complex/higher quality output and/or speed in output, you don't have to experess yourself to create physical/electronic forgeries. |
I would suggest that you spend some time learning more about forgery in general. Attention to detail isn't going to do you any good if you want to copy a document but you've never weathered a sheet of paper. Likewise, being able to draw a pencil sketch doesn't somehow confer the ability to carve marble into a proper likeness of Billy S, the Bard. Letting a character magically have thousands of little talents, skills, and abilities all lumped in for free under one very large umbrella marked "Forgery" is, to me, silly munchkinry, and to be punished by the dropping of several space cows. Again, I'll note, that this is simply my take on the matter. I'm sure there are as many ways of handling this as there are GMs.
As far as RAW, I'd kindly suggest that that particular tactic works far better over at the Wizards boards. In this case, it supports neither of our cases, since the "skill" Forgery is not directly addressed in the rules. Thus, any use of it whatsoever is a house rule, causing your attempt at bolstering your argument by invoking "RAW" to look rather silly.
@ Edward:
Actually, now that you mention it, I would also make them take the knowledge skill "Painting Forgery" rather than Art Forgery, at least if they expected to be able to use it as a complementary skill. "Art Forgery" might be too broad to be directly applicable. Hmm.
Now I'm thinking of writing up this character concept.
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| Now I'm thinking of writing up this character concept. |
Cool you should totally post it here when/if you do.
that would be cool.
One other way to deal with forgery would be to have a forgery master skill, that covers all types of forgery but you can’t forge something you can’t make. As a default it would cover documents (next to useless in eth 6th world) but if you have computing you can forge computer records, if you have painting you can forge paintings and if you have sculpture you can forge a sculpture.
As far as system goes you roll the skill appropriate to the task, with forgery as a complementary. If you don’t have the appropriate skill you’re defaulting to stat and probably wont do very well. If you’re trying to make a forgery without having the forgery skill you take +1TN (optional)
Edward
As far as system goes you roll the skill appropriate to the task, with forgery as a complementary. If you don’t have the appropriate skill you’re defaulting to stat and probably wont do very well. If you’re trying to make a forgery without having the forgery skill you take +1TN (optional)
Edward
Not bad, but I don't think that a +1 is enough of a penalty for not having any kind of active forgery skills. It's easy enough to slap paint to paper and call it art (have you seen what passes as art anymore?), but it's completely different to re-create something that exists to a standard that a layperson can't tell the difference.
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| Having an active skill "forgery" would mean that a character was equally good at forging a copy of the Declaration of Independence (weathering paper, handwriting mimicry, etc.) as he or she was at forging a copy of the Mona Lisa (oil painting, in that particular style, canvas choice, aging paint, etc.). It just doesn't make any sense. |
An obvious forgery.
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| Not bad, but I don't think that a +1 is enough of a penalty for not having any kind of active forgery skills. It's easy enough to slap paint to paper and call it art (have you seen what passes as art anymore?), but it's completely different to re-create something that exists to a standard that a layperson can't tell the difference. |
Remembering that +2TN is the penalty for defaulting to a related skill and +4TN for defaulting to stat.
I didn’t think the penalty should be as great as for defaulting to a related skill (eg shotgun to pistol or surgery to biotech) but +1 dose seem to low. The same penalty of 2 would work but no more.
As to the validity if some modern art, sometimes I don’t think the skill those artists have is the knowledge skills “sculpture” or “painting”, what they have is negotiation(fast talk) and intimidation(you will look stupid if you don’t get this).
At best (assuming you believe it dose have artistic merit) the actual creation takes little precision work (like getting the exact correct colour and line in painting) and it is probably created using a different artistic skill say impressionism. Thus somebody with high impressionism skill could make a painting or sculpture in that style that was good but imprecise in detail while they would not be able to paint a realistic landscape or portrait without also having the painting skill. Some artists straddle the line buy having both skills.
In such a case a forger would need the skill of eth medium, not the style because they are trying to make exact shapes and colours, not show an idea of there own.
2 other possibilities are that I don’t understand are (something I freely admit) or that I am trying to put to much detail in to a game system, these are not mutually exclusive.
Edward
| QUOTE (tisoz) | ||
An obvious forgery. |
Aw shucks. You've found me out. My cover as an art scholar is blown.
| QUOTE (Edward) |
| As to the validity if some modern art, sometimes I don’t think the skill those artists have is the knowledge skills “sculpture” or “painting”, what they have is negotiation(fast talk) and intimidation(you will look stupid if you don’t get this). |
Well the would have a "painting" skill but also a "painting background" skill or better yet a "Design Theory" knowledge skill. This would involve an understanding of composition and conveying an idea. Using implied lines to focus attention, contrasting color, light and dark, shapes and and size...
I can't paint well but i'm sure i could put something together that would be pleasing to the eye using my understanding of composition and design theory.
Anywho...
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