Scenario:

Player in my game has 3 initiative passes and a remington roomsweeper which has an 8-round capacity internal magazine. since he can fire it twice a pass (simple action) this means he can fire 6 shells a turn.

This works out at: 6 shells a turn x 3 seconds per turn x 20 (x3 seconds) in a minute making 320 rounds a minute.

That's really really fast but not what my problem is. I'm confused about the fact that the remington has no recoil modifier... so this guy (if the magazine was suddenly infinite) could fire 360 rounds a minute and not suffer any penalties? There's got to be something up with that.

Any help appreciated!

3 seconds per Combat Turn means there's 20 Combat Turns in one minute. If there are 6 shots in 1 Combat Turn, that means 120 shots per minute.

What do you mean by "no recoil modifier"? Semi-auto and has 1 point of RC or what?

Yeah 120 that's more like it.... :/ I suck at maths

Oh I get you, I got confused by the fact that it doesn't have it's own recoil score in the stat line...

So he takes his -1 on the second action of each pass or on each cumulutive action of each pass in a turn?

-1 die on each of the second shots. Recoil penaties are not cumulative between IPs.

That's fair. Thanks!

Firing 2 shells a second really isn't that ridiculous, especially from a small-caliber shotgun like the Roomsweeper.

Assuming you're running Quickness 4, it'll take you 2 complex actions to reload that thing when it runs dry. This lowers your character's "effective" rate of fire to about 80 rounds per minute. Box-mag shotguns ("clip" in shadowrun terms) are your friend

That's awesome, except it looks like crap.

this one's prettier, though i believe it's got a lower ROF.

As long as it is comfortable while firing, can take a beating, accurate, and is easy to use/maintain, I don't care what it looks like. make it look like a pink elephant for all I care.

You want to get into max autofire rates for shotguns in SR, well... dig up a CMDT and smartlink it.

Phase 1: Character autofires entire 10 round magazine (Complex Action). Character yells "Yeeeehaw!" (Free Action).
Phase 2: Character ejects magazine from the shotgun (FA). Character puts new magazine into the shotgun (Simple Action). Character fires a long burst (SA).
Phase 3: Character fires a long burst that is short 2 rounds, emptying the magazine (SA). Character ejects magazine from the shotgun (FA). Character puts new magazine into the shotgun (SA).

End of Combat Turn, repeat next Combat Turn. 20 shells per turn times 20 turns per minute = 400 rounds per minute. And if you trick the character out with a rigid stock/shock pad and two cyberarm gyros, he takes a -4 (2 uncomped shells, x2 for shotgun autofire) on the full auto burst and NO penalties on the long bursts. If gas vents were legal for shotguns, he'd be at no penalties whatsoever.

And according to the RAW, your character is spending 4000 nuyen a minute feeding flechette ammo into that piece (assuming he picks up all his magazines afterwards... they're 200 bucks a minute).

Yeah, once you consider that his effective rate of fire (that is, his ROF including downtime to reload, etc) is close to the cyclic rate of fire (the ROF you'd get if you had an infinitely large magazine) you get with modern automatic shotguns, this is scary.

400 Rounds of flechette ammo?

4000 Nuyen

40 Clips to hold 'em all?

200 Nuyen

Turning an auditorium full of goons into a bloody, knee-deep sludge in the space of sixty seconds?

Priceless.

atleast people cant complain that they no longer get RL cyclic rates on SR guns

still, 4 dice reduction, thats kinda ouch given that your avarage person is rolling what, 6 dice?

allso, i dont know cyberarm gyros where cumulative...

Yeah, it's a safe assumption that your average person doesn't drag around with two cyberarm gyros and a smartlinked autoshotgun.

Besides, if they're average, the smartgun bumps 'em up to 8

Isn't that AA-12 the shotty being marketed for use with the FRAG-12 explosive rounds? I remember reading that it had almost no felt recoil. Saw pics of a little boy firing it, and he couldn't have been more than 8.

it was the tested platform for the frag 12 round i believe. Me, i just want my AS-7 back when arsenal comes out

I have got a question : how can we increase the ROF of any pistol by +300%, without any additive recoil nor any imprecision ?

answer :
get increase reflex 3

sorry I leave

Woah... now THAT is ridiculous

You better be fast with your reloads then.

The combat round actions vs real life rate of fire is just something, that is not very easy to do. I see the more shooting actions as being able to fire off controlled shots, a normal person might get the same number of shots, just triggering the gun wildly, but those wouldn't stand a chance to hit anything, much less multiple different targets.

It might not be uber realistic, but it works.

The only issue I've ever really had with the ROF's depicted in SR (working under the assumption that characters aren't going flat-out cyclic) is that your ammunition consumption using suppressive fire goes up as you get faster. Now, my concept of what's going on is that the character is spraying down a defined area with a relatively constant supply of lead, possibly fired in a series of short bursts but with an eye towards getting a lot of slugs in the air. Why suppression isn't defined as simply having a flat rate of consumption per TURN is beyond me, but the wired guy goes through his mag a lot faster, with no real return on his investment (since the effects last until your next pass).

The 10 round maximum for aimed fire is arbitrarily defined from a raw numbers point of view, but gives us a reasonable system cap on how much damage someone can put out while still running smoothly. Ever use autofire in, say, CP2020? That could get annoying to roll.

Fire a number of bullets up to the gun's ROF... an average number for an SMG would be 20-40 rounds per turn. For every 10 rounds fired, you either get a +1 to hit at close range or a -1 beyond close range. Roll Stat (1-10) plus Skill (1-10) plus mods plus 1D10. Your baseline target number to hit something at close range is 15, and for every integer you beat the target number by, roll hit location and damage (minus armor, of course) for another round hitting the guy.

Nothing quite like having combat stall out for a bit while you roll up 14 hits with 10mm AP against a PC's body armor.

SR's system is streamlined in a good way. You get more damage (and after compensation, less accuracy) for putting more bullets downrange without having to add a ridiculous amount of rolling or math to the equation. I'm okay with that.

the upressive fire i have seen as this:

pass 1:
wired guy supresses, everyone in there area hides behind cover.

pass 2+:
wired guy goes looking for targets that pop their heads out (as they have more then one pass).

Just because you increase the amount of rounds fired doesn't necessarily mean you have to also break the shots down into smaller groups, let alone resolving autofire one shot at a time. You'll want to, of course, if it's logic or realism you're looking for: the massive recoil modifiers and the single clump resolution of automatic fire in SR makes it work largely opposite to how it works IRL. But it's not really required just because Private Mundane can now let loose 50 rounds per CT with his GPMG.

I've had situations in my games when someone has taken 20+ hits from one attacker during one Initiative Pass of fully automatic fire, but generally I've not bothered to fully resolve such attacks (which would normally be done in bursts of 3 or more in my games) and rather just describe that character's gruesome death.

But again, the canon SR way of dealing with automatic fire is certainly much simpler, and that's just fine.

Unless my brain is totally failing me, what a wide burst does is SUBTRACT dice from the dodge check of the TARGET, not add dice to the shooter's test. Wide bursts would become recoil compensation, if they worked the way you described, the +1 for each round of wide burst countering the -1 for each round's recoil. What they actually do is make it harder for the guy downrange to avoid getting hit, since you're putting a lot of bullets in his general direction.

Having extra dice would raise the maximum possible damage the burst might do. Taking dice away from the other player doesn't raise the maximum, it just makes it more likely that you'll do an amount of damage closer to your maximum.

I personally don't like their combat formula.

I don't mind at all the first part where its SKill + Agility vs Targets Reaction but I have issues with how it it all stages vs armor for penetration and damage.

Our group rewrote it and it seems to be working ok so far in game play.

Also we have issues with how they do recoil vs IPs. It would seem to me after practicing at the gun range that if you were able to juice up with what ever ware and get 4 IPs a turn, that the fire rate would end up more streamlined and recoil would not keep resetting but keep increasing.

What we did was this.

Recoil IP Mod per Pass
IP 1: 0 For each shot
IP 2: +1 For each shot
IP 3: +2 For each shot
IP 4: +3 For each shot

Double that if in burst mode and added to the recoil for the first shot as set in the book minus any anti recoil mods, and Long Bursts are a complex action.

More or less you compared to the book you really don't majorly start feeling it till the third IP compared to SR4 RAW. The idea was to add a little more realism as we know it from our gun firing experiences and not to make it so that IP 4 is not constantly the end all be all. Yes more actions are better but there is also a price to it to move that fast and keep such a steady rate of fire up.

Now it does not take into account reloads and other actions breaking up the steady stream of bullets that is being attempted but we didn't want to change to much at any one time and to much change might not always be to the plus for flavor and fun.

Ok according to SR4, a narrow burst does -2 recoil and a second burst does a -3 recoil.

We kept their idea of the first narrow bust but expanded upon it from there. I will show it in single and burst fire mode.

IP 1: First and second action Single shot, 0 recoil. Burst fire first and second action - 2 recoil.
IP 2: First and second action Single shot, 1 recoil. Burst fire first and second action - 4 recoil.
IP 3: First and second action Single shot, 2 recoil. Burst fire first and second action - 6 recoil.
IP 4: First and second action Single shot, 3 recoil. Burst fire first and second action - 8 recoil.

Now this may look harsh at the end for just plain burst fire but if you could really stand there and keep such a steady stream up it would look more like auto fire. And we do think a long burst should be a complex, after all it is a Long burst.

But we also have other tweeks to off set it such as our Strength Chart. Every 4 points of str gives you the ability to reduce recoil by starting at 5 Strength and going up from there. At a 5 Str, you are pretty strong for a human.

I am not sure if this will help anyone due to the fact our combat formula is different because we didn't like how they do their penetration system.
Still using their codes for the armors. we changed how it all works but made it so that you can still look in the book and what you see is what you get.

We did this in the flavor of the game. From my reading of the rules it would seem to me that they tried to shed where a plain old human were absolutly useless compaired to a Shadow Runner.

They are still out classed but they have a much better chance now (specially if they have some very decent skills) where as in the old system as of when I played SR2, if you were wired 3, you always went first and you got most of your actions in befor a standard human even knew what was up.

If you are still intrested I will write up our combat formula for you to look at. Just didnt feel like adding what more we did incase nobody liked any of our ideas as I am not the quickest typest on the block.

Now you can go first but he gets his return fire if he survies and most of your extra actions come near the end of the combat round.

the thing about a wide burst and armor penetration could be this:

a wide spread of bullet can lead to 1 or more hitting a more sensitive area...

That's kind of how I read that bit, too. A narrow burst involves you lining up the piece and putting a burst into a pretty tight group... more likely that the entire group would strike the character's body armor or just produce a flesh wound. The wide burst is more spread around, so while you're not really "pumping the guy full of lead" in the same sense as you are with a narrow, you might still hit him several times, with the actual damage coming from the single round out of that burst that hit him in an unarmored location.