I'm in the middle of a game right now and we are having a rules debate, so I would really appreciate a quick answer. A shaman summons a spirit and gets four net hits, so the spirit owes four unbound services. Then the shaman binds the spirit and gets a net hits, so the spirit owes a single bound service. Do those unbound services become bound services, or must they be used before sunrise/sunset before they're wasted?

wouldn't count for binding. only the net hits rolled on the binding test count for binding. Personally I'd say you're being generous for giving him the previous successes, but that's just me. It doesn't really say in the book either way.
The reason they don't stack is that the spirit rolls more dice and has heavier drain for binding, so they shouldn't get what would amount to free, or at least easier successes.

Hope 20 minutes wasn't too much wait time

sincerest thanks!!!

welcome. Give my apologies to the guy that lost 4 services though.

Actually... it does say, and you just screwed a player bad.

The first net hit on the binding test does not even give a service - it merely converts the spirit to being a bound spirit. Only additional net hits after the first grant hits.

That's on page 180:

I disagree. I states that under binding. No where in the book does it state the summoning services previous to binding carry over in to the binding test. Like I mentioned before, the rolls for that are much easier. If you want to allow those services, then say that they only count in the 8 hour time limit. The section on 180 you quoted is under 'binding'. "at the end of the ritual"... meaning that it's a seperate test (obviosuly because it's another roll with way more dice and drain).

Count the services for bound and unbound services seperately if you like. No where does it state that they carry over. Nowhere does it state that they do not either honestly, so IMO it's up to GM interpretation.

<The magician requires one net hit to bind the spirit. Additional net hits beyond the first add to the number of services owed.>

If they didn't carry over, what exactly are we adding to?

If we go the way you say, then if the Mage got only one success he'd have a bound spirit with 0 Services, which is no spirit.

the way I understand it at least, example:
mage rolls summoning test, say he gets 7 successes

spirit being bound rolls 5

mage has one service. . First net hit makes it a bound spirit, second net hit is the first bound service that the spirit owes.

This is assuming that there are two different types of Services. As far as I read there are Services, both unbound and bound spirits can use them, bound spirits just happen to be able to do more with the services.

pg 179:Spirit Services

Unbound Spirit Services
Combat
Continual use of a power
Perform Physical Task
Remote Service

Bound Spirit Services
Any Unbound Spirit Service
Aid Sorcery
AAid Study
Loaned Service
Spell Binding
Spell Sustaining

Bound spirits have more types of services available as well, so there is more that you would be able to do with the services of a bound spirit as opposed to an unbound. So why would the unbound summoning that is easier to do, and gives less drain, all of a sudden give it more types of services?

Sorry, that was a typo. The shaman got two net hits, so the spirit owes one bound service.

I'm going to rule that the spirit owes four unbound services, which expire at sunset, and one bound service. It seems fairest that way.

sounds fair. The rules could be a little more clear. I'm suprised this never came up in playtesting. Of course, never really came up in my games either, so I guess I can't really blame them. Anyone know if 'ShadowFAQ' is answering 4th edition questions yet?

right, so if you put your money into one machine , you get only the snack/service of that type. So in the example (original) the summoner has 4 services that he has to use in 8 hours of the unbound type, and one service that he can use any time under the bound spirit category.

I certainly wouldn't even consider binding if people were seriously not going to allow me to have any services if I got one net hit. That's seriously crazy talk, and I can easily see why your game was paralyzed by argument.

At no time did the designers intend for people to make a "bound spirit" that had no available services. And any interpretation that leads to such obvious insanity should be dropped immediately.

There is no such thing as a "Bound Service", there are only "Bound Spirit Services" - the services that a Bound Spirit can be asked to perform. Each spirit just has a number of services that it owes, then if it is Unbound it can be asked to perform any of the services described under "Spirit Services", and if it Bound it can do all that plus anything listed under "Bound Spirit Services".

Seriously, it's just that simple. And it isn't particularly unfair (excepting that Binding is so drain and yen intensive that it's still a kind of raw deal).

-Frank

then what they intended isn't very clear. It is possible to bind a spirit, with no successes, as written at least. In that case, you would have to do a rebinding , where all the successes (net) would count for services. If I'm wrong, cool , more services for all to go around, but as written, that's what it says. They could certainly be more specific. Hence why I was asking if ShadowFAQ is answering 4th edition questions, or if that's been addressed in the second print run, since my book is from the first run.

You cannot re-summon an unbound spirit, so what's the big deal here?

Binding is difficult, dangerous and costly, and requires an extra skill. Isn't that enough?

You just start out with a number of services, and if you are better at summoning, the foundation for binding pretty much, then you will have some advantage with the bound spirit as well.

And yeah, I also think (no, I'm sure) that you keep the services with that first net hit on the Binding Test, and that they do not expire. The spirit isn't unbound anymore, so why should there be unbound services floating around?

There are no unbound and bound services to begin with, there are just services and unbound/bound spirits. Bound spirits can be used for more tasks with the services they owe, and the services do not expire, that's why you bind them, after all.

"The services of a bound spirit do not expire..."

Not the bound services, just the services.

Bye
Thanee

Yeah. They also fail to mention whether spirits transform into cheesecake on Tuesdays.

sorry ,let me rephrase. It is possible to bind a spirit, as written , get only one net success, and have no services. It does not state that the services from the initial summoning carry over.

As I said before, it also doesn't state that they do not, so it's a writer mistake either way. But , at least from my point of view, as written, that's how it works. If they correct it and it lets you keep the earlier successes, cool, my street mage could use a few more services from his elementals. But that's not what it says.

ok, I'll do it your way. But seriosuly Frank, chill man. Sorry if I aggravated you that much.

Yeah, adding services is the one that makes more sense. You go out of your way, use up expensive materials, why do that to get -fewer- services? Plus there's the question of what a Bound Spirit owing no services would do. Tell you to get bent? Bargain for something?