In the old 2nd edition book, Tir Tairngire, it says that Sperethiel is largely limited to Comital Rank and above, but in the 4th edition book, the (Elven) combat mage has 4 ranks in it and the (Elven) smuggler has 3 ranks in it.

So, my question is, in 2070, how common is it for Elves of any rank to know Sperethiel?


Thyme


PS. I only know what it says in 2nd ed Tir Tairngire and 4th ed main book, Sperethiel might have been more common in 3rd ed, but I don't know.

Frankly, I think that and Or'Zet should be about as common as Esperanto.

I can't tell if you're joking or not...

A lot of elves in elven countries would know it. Elves born to elves in elven countries would know it. Elves who are full of elven pride would know it. Outside of those clusters, I tend to look at it as about as common as Japanese in the current U.S. Some people interested in the culture would learn it, but as most people don't have a reason to (and because it's not taught in many places before college) it's not really widely known.

Just an opinion though.

That's how I see it. Sperethiel seems to be the kind of thing an elf would learn because they have some specific interest in it. There are certain practical reasons a runner might learn it, I figure. A runner in the Pacific northwest might end up having to travel through Tir Tairngire at times, and he's more likely to blend in or at least piss people off less by speaking their language. Sort of like how you're better off knowing French going to Quebec, except Quebeckers are less likely to Manabolt you into fine, astral dust.

My mage took it so he could pronounce the spells in the ancient tome.

I think I now understand my confusion with Sperethiel.
My gaming group really only ever played 2nd edition.
In second edition only a small portion of high ranking Elves knew Sperethiel.
In third edition Sperethiel became a more common language for people to know.

I was use to my group, which required a very good in character reason to know the language. My group never really read the 3rd edition books all that closely, so they never saw that Sperethiel had become more common.

In Tir Tairngire a second edition book, only Elves above Comital Rank really knew Sperethiel.

In Shadows Across North America, 55% of Tir Tairngire uses Sperethiel.

The will be people in my group that won't like Sperethiel being more common, but I'm the GM, so .


Thyme

I always thought it was one of those things that elves born into the two Tirs would know, as would any elf born into money and given a private education. Other than that, I always assumed it was the province of mages and historians.

That makes sense theoretically, but think how fast data can be communicated even now. In SR, anyone who cares and who has access to the Matrix could learn Sperethiel, because it's not data kept under lock and key by governments or megacorps. Once enough people know something, someone's bound to upload the data onto some server, then it just multiplies.

but by the time they came out with shut down, it was already common enough that orcs were showing off their knowledge of it. Also, in sota2064, they were having goblin rockers making a big splash using orzet, which would spread the language even faster.

The elven language can also be seen as a high society thing.. it's 'posh' to know certain oblique cultural terminology... like how some rich people will use French even though they rarely have any idea if they'r using it in the proper context.. it sounds 'posh' thus raising their status.

Hm. I'm willing to concede that point. I still don't think that they should be entirely popular outside of the Tirs or a college setting, given that it's not really an active native language.

I could see a stronger case for Sperethiel, given that it sounds like Tir is basically forcing people to speak it, a la SR Quebec with French.

I have a harder time swallowing the fact that anybody has Orzet beyond, like, a one or two. I can understand the occasional word or phrase, but it seems a little, I'onno. Hokey.

The way I look at it, no one will be taken Sperethiel as their native langauge yet. It hasn't been around long enough, but there really isn't a reason why Elves can't have ranks in Sperethiel. (Unless it goes against their back story.)

Thyme

Tir Nan og speaks gaelic sperethiel slightly different language

also the tirs have been around 35 years now. People raised in pretensious elf supremist households (yep high rank) would probably be getting on bilingual english/sperethiel.

also sperethiel would be a common way of overcoming language barriers between elves of different original nationalities.

I can imagine alot of people learning that first point because it's cool. It's like alot of my friends and languages, we learn the first bit because we really dig the language, culture, and/or want to be all pretentious, but then we find that learning a new language can be pretty hard so we don't get beyond that.

I can see alot of young elves and elf-posers getting that first point and then deciding that they know enough to pepper their speech with cool phrases and learning more isn't really practical.

Of course the well-to-do ones just get linguasofts...

kinda like the french and germans?

Israel has been a state since 1948. Before then hebrew was an ancient language that nobody used as a spoken language for everyday situations (eccept maybe the odd expert and rabbi, and even then they would have troubles unless they lived just like in biblical times). They chose hebrew over german and giddish as their national language—so they had to make it a working, modern language. Now, 80% of Israel's jewish population say they speak hebrew in daily life.

Tir nations were in a similar situation as Israel. The elves were united by heritage but not by nationality. When creating a national identity, you really need a national language that every citizen can be proud of. Israel is proof that the need can be strong enough to establish that language in roughly 50 years time.

I don't find Sperithiel's spread in Shadowrun hard to accept at all.

hmm, that makes me wonder what kind of direction the or'zet language will bring the orcs...

Actually, the Hebrew analogy is very apt. Modern Hebrew is spoken by less than 6 million people worldwide, of which 5 million of them live in Israel. Similarly, The Tirs correspond to less than 9 million people together - if they've managed to get similar effect as Israel's push for Hebrewization, then they have about half of their own people speaking Sperethiel and another million wannabes worldwide.

In short - whup-de-do. You're more likely to be able to speak to someone in Elvish Lands by speaking English. Anywhere else on Earth your chances of meeting someone who can speak Sperethiel is so low as to be ignorable.

-Frank

Yeah Frank. But if you are an elf, you shouldn't have any trouble justifying having the skill. That's more or less what we're telling the first poster.

Thats not quite true. If yer an elf from the Tir's you shouldnt have a problem justifying it. I mean, realy how many Jewish people that arent in Isreal speak Hebrew? About the same as elves. Practicly none.

We're not talking statistics here. Bottom line; it's not difficult for anyone to learn languages via the matrix if they put effort in it, and Sperithiel is more than some obscure ancient elvish thounge. An elf that takes the elvish identity seriously would need no justification beyond that personality trait for to know the language.

>>edit<< I'm not saying every elf should know it. If you make an elvish character, and want the language for some reason, though. Spending points on it. Why should the GM interfere with that?

Don't forget that Or'zet and Sperethiel are languages en vogue, too.

Hmmm, I'm thinking that Or'zet would be spoken some in the Underground, and a lot in Germany where the orcs and trolls are nationalists. Also, I think that people will tend to pick it up as a spoken language far more readily than read/write.

BTW: can anybody point me to written samples of either language in SR? I'd be interested in making some screamsheets with ads in those languages.

There're brief lists of what little bit of both languages have been "translated" in various sources, both Earthdawn and Shadowrun, on Ancient History's site. I don't have the exact sub-page to link, but it's right there on the main page.

Uncle Ancient's Sperethiel Dictionary - Kicking the ass of sperethiel.net on search engines for years

The Or'zet Codex - Don't be confused by the Polish sites! This is the real thing!

this stuff is what i like about shadowrun, a story that isnt complete. that tell much but not all

I would think that Sperethiel is still not well known, mainly among the rich and those in power and/or highly educated on avg barring those who just took it as a hobby of interest.

It would take a long time to bring about a whole culture based on it and get everything translated to book form for schools and collages.

Mainly most would still speak the language of their region as their main and as time went by they would know Sperethiel as a second language and finely as a first with the region as a second. And those in business would always know english since it is the language for international trade.

But it would be YEARS down the road even from a 2070 point of view. You have to understand how far it would have to come.

Most likely only the immortals knew it and it would take a tremendous amount of time for it to spread from such a small source to a mass populace.

Most of your lower end elves such as those who live in the low end areas and out side the Tier would only know the language of their region and knowing only a few words hopeing to impress someone.

You avg elf may be learning it at this time in school but it still would be a second language due to the fact they will probably know more then their parents due therefor not use it as a prime language but as a secondary.

Even that I think is pushing it some.

I would say by now you can get a chip for it. It would possible be popular, Poser gangs, high school girls.....

Elves are the new unicorn. Snerk.

Ok now What about Trolls and Dwarves??

If Orks and Elves have there own languages Then where is a Trollish or Dwarvish Language??

Yet--but when and where and how might they show up and if they do exist in Earthdawn are there any language guides for them?

<shrug> Archaeological digs are your best bet, at least until Ehran publishes his 27-volume tell-all abbreviated biography. Sample glossaries in ED books give out bits of the Troll, T'skrang, Theran, and Obsidiman languages, among others. All (or nearly all) instances of Throalic (Dwarf) were converted to English, and no examples of Scythan (Old Dwarf) have been used.