Linked in from another poll about starting character power levels.

Keep in mind when answering that some people prefer to minmax characters while some people prefer a more balanced approach. Obviously the minmaxers are more likely to hit their head on the metaphorical advancement ceiling, so I suspect this poll will be skewed accordingly.

It is a bit ambivalent. Which is, i think, a good thing. Players who want to start as pros aren't disappointed. Players who want to start more on street level aren't disappointed. Since there is a discussion which statement is true, i think they got it right .

that is my point--dragons and leviathans aren't balanced to be characters in the game. that's why the SR4 chargen rules don't allow you to play them. my argument is that the SR4 chargen rules should also not allow you to play someone with world-class skill.

You mean they're too weak or something? I guess you have a point... but unlike DND, SR isn't about engaging you enemies in open combat. In DnD, your enemies laid traps and set about stacking the odds; in Shadowrun, you do this instead. I don't think the comparison is valid.

And if you ever want to take on a dragon, you could always get a tank or something.

{Dons flame retardant armor}
I'm fine with the existing skill/attribute caps. Not exactly thrilled but okay. If I run a real campaign I'll end up lifting the skill cap.

I prefer the older method of graduated stat cost with the racial Limit and the racial Max. It meant the 1-dimensional players could happily grind away hundreds of karma trying to get their stat to the max level without much bang for their buck. But they would be quiet.

I think part of the issue may be time-sensitive. Over a longer period of time, those skillcaps are going to mean more than they do, say, for a troupe who plays once a week for a few months. I'm starting a new troupe (first game's tonight) which will play once a week until, y'know, we stop. If the game goes longer than, say, six months, I may consider slowly uncapping skills, then attributes. Maybe, one more point every few months, or until they're powerful enough, or something like that. This way, it encourages a variety of skills and abilities, but will allow me to keep the players from getting overwhelmingly powerful, especially in a short period of time. No one goes from gutterpunk errand boy with a gun to a respected and well-known professional street samurai in six months, game time.

Just remember to uncap skills for other NPCs, too. And uncap them higher than the PCs.

"More street level" does not equate to "is street level."

if the GM has to houserule everything in order to make sure the game has the 'intended' feel, why have rules at all?

SR3 chars are more street, in my opinion, because they are much further from the upper limits in terms of skill and other factors.

heh, see, that's another peeve of mine about SR4: the fact that the GM has to adjudicate so much. i really dislike game systems which require lots of maintenance to work. sure, it's not technically houseruling, since the book says "do whatever you want"... but it's a rule that's not specifically in the book, that only applies at your gaming table. it's really the same thing.

i don't mind being ragged on, honestly. i wouldn't be posting here if i did.

I honestly can't get my panties in a bunch about whether things are street or characters are world class, or any of that. The fact is that whatever the power level is, the player characters are the protagonists of the story and appropriate opposition will be scaled. How important the story is to the unfolding of the rest of the world is largely a matter of taste and actually somewhat outside the scope of the game system to define.

Ultimately powerful dudes can slug it out in mysterious islands that noone has ever heard of or given a damn about (like in Harlequin), and bumbling hippies can stumble through bar brawls that end up determining presidential elections. However hard core the players are relative to what could be out there, the opposition can be set to weaker, stronger, or even odd and the results of the players actions could determine the fate of the world or be lost in the torrent.

---

But I do object to the fact that a Hacker Adept can hit his practical maximum Hacking on 67 Karma and a Technomancer can get to the same place on... 391 Karma. I think that's an advancement flaw. In any game that a Technomancer comes into his own, the Hacker Adept will have long ago taken up some other task and reached his maximum in that. And then taken up a third thing and maximized that.

Something's out of scale. I think it's a matter of opinion if Technomancy is simply way too crazy expensive or the caps are too easy to reach. But something is out of scale.

-Frank

True. If your group does not like it, it becomes the GMs responsibility to mantain game balance.

I like SR4 a lot better than SR3, but chargen is not balanced. I had to keep an eye on different players and not everybody is 100% happy.

Who had a flat Karma house-rule for chargen?

Cheers,

Max

My problem is partly MFB's-- the bar is set way too low. You should not be able to match the best of the best, right off the starting line. Even if you like a higher-powered game, the fact is that the GM cannot create anyone who's better than you as a challenge. And facing enemies who are tougher than you is part of the fun of the game.

The next problem I have is the abuseability of the system. It's got more holes in it than GURPS supers or Champions, and I once created a 100-point Champions character with 300 points worth of super powers. The skill and attribute caps would be papateable if they prevented abuses-- but they don't.

If you got a problem with the skill caps... just remove them, or put them higher. *shrug*

Bye
Thanee

Yeah, i don't see the problem too and did so in my games. Not that a char survived long enough to ever reach a skill cap, but at least their had the chance

I fail to see the issue when you can change the amount BP's allowed.
At the end of the day, it is up to your group.

Rules aren't rules, they are 'guidelines'


Anyway, just to lighten up te mood, here's this:

<Donut[AFK]> HEY EURAKARTE
<Donut[AFK]> INSULT
<Eurakarte> RETORT
<Donut[AFK]> COUNTER-RETORT
<Eurakarte> QUESTIONING OF SEXUAL PREFERENCE
<Donut[AFK]> SUGGESTION TO SHUT THE FUCK UP
<Eurakarte> NOTATION THAT YOU CREATE A VACUUM
<Donut[AFK]> RIPOSTE
<Donut[AFK]> ADDON RIPOSTE
<Eurakarte> COUNTER-RIPOSTE
<Donut[AFK]> COUNTER-COUNTER RIPOSTE
<Eurakarte> NONSENSICAL STATEMENT INVOLVING PLANKTON
<Miles_Prower> RESPONSE TO RANDOM STATEMENT AND THREAT TO BAN OPPOSING SIDES
<Eurakarte> WORDS OF PRAISE FOR FISHFOOD
<Miles_Prower> ACKNOWLEDGEMENT AND ACCEPTENCE OF TERMS


regards

Bladepoet

Thing is, he hasn't hit his max. He's got a whole other skill group to max out, and that'll cost another bucketload of Karma.

no. those are skills which are useful to hackers, but they are not hacking. having a few point in a melee skill might make you a better all-around combatant, but it's not going to make you a better shot.

Then there's the Electronic Warfare skill, which will help your hacking when you have to fight IC. Or help you be a better hacker, but the point is that it will help you do what a hacker is there to do.

Also, I guess you can't *buy* programs of >6 rating, but would it be possible to program one?

Well as a Player I wouldn't mind seeing our Hacker with bettter programs, but if I were running a game I think I might allow slightly better then R6 IF we were talking about a DeVinci with a Natural Skill of R7 and access to the 'best' possible facilities, although even then with a greatly increased Threshold for the actual Coding.

But according to the game, if R7+ programs are allowed at all they aren't much harder then coding a R6, according to the Build Table on page 240.

Just have every Complex Form cost 5 BP/Karma and level them up automatically with Resonance. They're already limited by the fact that they can't take cyberware without getting their matrix awesomeness destroyed, so I see no problem. Hackers aren't supposed to be completely devoted to destroying things in the matrix anymore, so making them less potent than someone who is isn't a problem.

I see. I was hooked on your choice of Edit as an exciting program, not the programming interval. Thanks