Ok, for my Marine character (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=12247), I'm trying to figure out what weapon group to specialise in (it's written there as Assault Rifles).

Any advice what to take as my "Big Guns" skill? I'll have pistols, clubs and unarmed, but need the big hitter.
Assault Rifles looked fine, until I had a chat with a mate (he's playing a sniper), and realised the power of the shots he's putting out. I also realised that if I come up against anything with hardened armor (pretty much a certainty in this game), none of the assault rifles can touch someone in Heavy.

So, any advice/ideas?

Please don't compare your character to the group sniper if he is using something like the Barret 121. That thing is big all around. Big damage, big penetration, big weight, big bulk.

Even more so if he snipes with an assault cannon.

I would be thinking "fire and maneuver", which rules out most of the big guns. Perhaps a FN-HAR? Maybe you can squeeze a level or two in rocket launchers, for when that Piasma needs to go down NOW.

Ares Alpha.

End of line.

What sort of rules are you guys using for starting availability? If they're in line with everything else I've seen of your character (Beta 'ware, and so on) why are you worried about hardened armor? You can easily afford APDS or AV ammo, which means that, with a well-designed AR, you should be able to get off two 11S bursts per round, or one 14D full-auto one.

You're always going to fall behind a sniper in terms of per-shot damage, but you'll be way ahead every time you're not fighting outdoors, with unlimited lines of sight. The real (potential) problem here is one you can't do anything about, and that's how your GM runs his game - if he sticks to reallistic scenarios, your sniper buddy will spend a lot of time twiddling his thumbs while you're taking care of business, because he won't even have a shot.

Same thing with damage - if you're going to be in a campaign where an 11S burst of APDS/AV ammo with 10+ dice behind it is insufficient to take down virtually everything that can be hurt with a gun (short of major armored vehicles), you have bigger worries than you sniper out-shooting you.

Ed_209a - Actually he's using a custom gun. 14S, and I think he can BF.
FN-HAR? What is that?

Lindt - Ares Alpha was what I was originally looking at. However I'm kinda behind on what is a good weapon, since both of my previous characters have been hand-to-hand, not gun, based.

mmu1 - Yep, all availability restrictions off, custom weapons allowed (subject to DM approval). Good point on the APDS

Also, some advice on customisations (underslung grenade laucher, that kind of thing) would be appreciated.

The Ares Alpha already comes with an underbarrel grenade launcher. It's just about the best weapon for all-around use (short of a sniper rifle (whose use is debatable in many circumstances) or the Franchi SPAS assault shotgun (whose magazine size is a seriously limiting factor)) given its large magazine (clip) size, integrated recoil compensation, and underbarrel grenade launcher. The only time I would ever want a different assault rifle would be a Colt M-23 with Sound Suppressor, Bipod, and shock pad for urban "sniping" (and you can always tool out an Ares Alpha for the same tasks, I just always found the M-23 classier for that sort of thing).

Ares Alpha basicly has everything you are looking for, especially if you had a rangefinder to it. If that isnt to your fansy then design one, but it is hard to beat the Alpha in virsatility and it IS going to cost alot more than the Alpha.
Personally I feel the Alpha has a too low availability and maybe too cheap but that is a whole other matter

Or, if you wanna be a book twink, go get the Steyr AUG-CSL system, and use the carbine. 7S with burst capability at rifle range? Yummy.

Well, the votes are certainly stacking up for the alpha

Any advice on what other accesories to add to the Alpha? (top and barrel)


Roadspike, for note, I took a look and that is one mean-arse shotgun


As a matter of interest, how close to the Alpha can you make with custom building an AR? I'm seeing something like the Alpha with the 6 round burst mod being quite rude...
(That said, I'm the person who was almost considering a Panther, *without* the mount/tripod)

One more random thought, since we're looking at weapons (and since I've been in a campaign rife with bug spirits, and my thoughts run that way...): get a taser - preferably, the Yamaha Pulsar. Uses the pistol skill, inflicts absurd amounts of damage, and works on things you can't hurt with normal bullets.

I'll add one more vote for the Ares Alpha, M22 or AK98.

In stock SR, the FN-HAR is just another assault rifle.

In real life, however, the FN-FAL (obvious inspiration for the FN-HAR) fires a 7.62mm round instead of the more typical 5.56mm round.

Your GM could model a FAL-like weapon pretty well by using the existing stats for the HAR from SR3, but inserting range and damage from the Rem 950 sporting rifle.

A 7.62mm assault rifle (often called a Battle Rifle) can also make a decent mid-range (4-600m) sniper rifle. It could certainly take more of a beating than a sniper rifle based off a sporting rifle.

yeah. i've custom-designed a few battle rifles using the CC FCG. start with a sport rifle, add burst fire, et voila. if you want, you can change burst fire to autofire with the modification. or, you can just take Heavy Weapons, use an LMG, and call it a battle rifle.

"Help, I've 'FAL'len, and I cant get up..."

god sees your crimes, Lindt.

If we are heading in that directing (Battle Rifles) then I prefer the old but still true HK G3. A Classic, though heavy, but still a classic

I'm sorry, but for all around goodness you really cant beat the AS-7, clip fed burst fire capable and when your doing sewer work you can put a 50rnd drum on it and burst fire flechette rounds to clear out those bloody devil rats

for assault rifles though i have to agree that the CSL is just great

If you're a smartlink'd fella, which I think you are, there is no doubt that the Ares Alpha is where it's at. Built in *internal* (2) recoil compensation, built in smartlink-2, built in underbarrel grenade launcher; that's an *awesome* starting point. Toss on the grenade linked range finder, and you can start firing mini-grenades with reasonably high accuracy. For the barrel mount, you can go with the typical gas vents if you want (add a shock pad with gas vent IV, and personalized grip and you have an easy 8 recoil compensation); if you prefer, you can of course go with the sound supressor.

Keep in mind that assault rifles let you do nifty stuff like supressive fire -- which is awesome for stripping large groups of enemies of combat pool to soften them up for... I dunno, the sniper in your group.

If you take the time to go with the range finder, and buy launch weapons, you will usually be able to hit the target and get *zero* scatter on a mini-grenade, *and* you will be prepared to use stuff like mortars and missile launchers for when you need *really* heavy ordnance. A sniper rifle is fine and dandy, but when the stuff really hits the fan, would you rather have a pair of 14D shots in a round that will hit at most two people, or an area of effect grenade launcher that can potentially take out the *entire* enemy group. Do keep in mind that an IPE grenade or mortar will very likely penetrate any man-portable hardened armor. What about those times when the enemy has enough hardened armor to stop even the sniper rifle? You can start laying out chemical weapons with that grenade launcher. Sniper boy can't do that. Not to mention all of the other munition options for grenades; you get all the special bullets the sniper does, but he gets *none* of the grenade munitions you do. (unless he's toting around a grenade launcher also).

If you learn launch weapons for that grenade launcher, you also have the potential to fire guided missiles (which add dice to your roll all on their own), mortars, and do nifty keen stuff like indirect fire.

(Obviously, some of this stuff requires you to learn launch weapons, but if you're going to get an Ares Alpha, it's not a bad idea to do so.)

Basically what it boils down to is that the sniper rifle *is* very powerful, but it has a highly targetted role.

The Ares Alpha is *highly* flexible, and centering skills around it (specifically assault rifle and launch weapons) as a main weapon lets you fulfill *many* combat roles.

Besides, if you already have someone on your team filling the sniper role, why do you want to duplicate that skill set?

Going to have to agree with the notion that there's not much better than a 7.62x51mm battle rifle for work in the days of SR.

AR10, FAL, G3, G36/7 (fictional), Galil 7.62, M14 and M77 are what I have for you.

You want to consider portability first. Even if you're not travelling far (from vehicle door to spot & back), anything can & WILL happen, so plan accordingly. It laso depends on your role in the mission.

For personal use, go with a medium to heavy weapon (the Predator series has an excellent rep), with a light pistol as back up. Take a look at whatthe character's modern equivalent carries, then adjust accordingly.

I've definitely got launch weapons, specialised in grenade launchers up to 6.

Does anyone know that the FCU of the Ares Alpha? So that I know how much customising I can do.

Also, do I actually need the grenade ragefinder if I have a cyberware rangefinder with my smartlink?

Thirdly. One idea that I've been messing around with. I'll be wearing ruthenium-coated heavy milspec armor. How feasable does it sound to add a sound suppresor to the Alpha and then Ruthenium coat the *gun* ?

Finally. Well, we've pretty much got the primary weapon sorted out, what other ordinences should I be carrying? There will definitely be a Pulsar Taser involved (used them before, they're *nice* ), but not sure what else.

You'll need the grenade link and air-timed grenades to reduce your scatter down to 1d6 (usually zero). As the launcher attached to the alpha is SA, this means you can fire a pair of grenades at zero scatter. Another thing worth thinking about as a backup weapon is an MGL-6, this lets you carry a different launched grenade type easy to hand. So your alpha might be loaded with IPE Offensive, then you can carry a MGL-6 loaded with smoke to either mark targets or provide obscurement, with flash bang to jack up the other sides target numbers, or WP to deny areas. Don't want guys in the room behing that window? fill it full of burning chemicals. You can use one simple action (ready weapon) to draw your MGL-6 then another simple action to fire it. As your alpha will be on a sling, you can use a free action (drop weapon) to let go of your alpha, no need to put it away first.

Once you start facing lots of guys, you'll find you are firing the grenade launcher more than you are firing bullets. Fire two short burts at 6 guys, kill 2, and the other 4 shoot you. Fire two grenades and the group and maybe do serious wound to all of them (a mod wound from each grenade). That +3 TN mod should mean that none of the 6 can hit you (or indeed, even want to continue combat).

Don’t think you have to compete with the sniper in terms of unmodified damage code. A properly modified Aries Alfa can produce damage codes of 20D+1 (with EX ammunition and penetrating 10 points of hardened armour) or you can accept 18D+1 with APDS (or AV) ammunition and penetrate 17 points of hardened armour (or vehicle).

Its not possible to put 17 points of hardened armour on a metahuman and if your dealing with vehicles with more there called tanks and you will be wanting anti tank guided missiles, preferably launching from your riggers drone. With luck and cooperative GM getting a grenade to detonate /under/ a vehicle may have some useful effect

Customisation primarily runes to recoil compensation,
Aries Alfa has 2 points of integral recoil compensation, add a gas vent 4, and customised grip, now if you’re firing a full auto burst you take -3 for recoil. If you fire 2 3 round bursts (more normal) there is no recoil to worry about.
You will also want to add a grenade link to its integral under barrel grenade launcher.
Top mount takes a range finder

If you’re the type to be carrying it you could use a LMG instead of the assault rifle, modifications would be the same.

If you like high velocity guns then Aries HVAR is not too shabby. I don’t like HV weapons however for reasons of recoil. If you use the same mods on the HVAR are you would on the alfa you have 1 point of additional recoil compensation, also they are weaker against hardened armour. Assuming you intend to make 2 bursts this is the outcome with standard ammunition

Alfa
11S no recoil
11S no recoil

HVAR
12D no recoil
12D recoil 4

HVAR with tracers
10D -2 TN
10D recoil 2

HVAR + cyber gyro mount (now we are getting useful, but expensive
12D no recoil
12D recoil 1

HVAR +cyber gyro and tracers
10D -2 TN
10D -1 TN

The HV LMG is never worth it as it looses a damage level over other LMGs

Combat shotguns do have there advantages in power (you want the one with the 50 round drum) but they loose a lot of range, how close do you expect to be working

My solution for grenade selection would be to load the internal magazine with 5 or 6 of whatever you use most, and have a supply of other types easily assessable on your person, as a simple action you can load up to half qui grenades into the internal magazine and fire one immediately with your other simple action.

Now your stealth. A sound suppressor will cost you your gas vent, making recoil an issue. Ruthiniuming the gun is probably a matter of putting it in a case, but this can be done.

Edward

The HV weapons can't take barrel mounts, so no gas vent for you. This means that the best recoil comp you can get for an HVAR is custom grip (1), shock pads (1), integral recoil comp (3), underbarrel weight (1). Ths means you can fire the first burst at no recoil (+5 recoil mods for 6 ronuds fired), but the second burst will be at +5, so its useless. Also, having the underbarrel weight means that you must give up the grenade launcher.

I'll also point out that the HV weapons combined with SR's rediculous ammo costs mean that that 6 round burst of Ex you fired at someone just cost you 60-90Y

Ouch, yes I forgot that, no barrel mounts.

Revised listing

Alfa
11S no recoil
11S no recoil

HVAR
12D no recoil
12D recoil 6

HVAR with tracers
10D -2 TN
10D recoil 4

HVAR + cyber gyro mount
12D no recoil
12D recoil 3

HVAR +cyber gyro and tracers
10D -2 TN
10D recoil 1

HVAR full gyro mount harness
12D no recoil
12D no recoil

but if you were wiling to carry a full gyro mount harness why not just use a LMG (or evon MMG) firing 3 round bursts for a lot les money better penetration of hard armor and being faster on the draw.

Edward

The only problem with LMGs and MMGs without a gyromount is that you need STR 8 or BOD 8 to fire them, and you have to cut all bursts so that you never take recoil, or they'll magically force you to lie down. That isn't a real problem as long as your GM allows you to fire less than 10 rounds with a Full Auto Fire action. In any case, you can do 2 bursts of 12D with a MMG with no recoil easily. If you've got a Cyberarm Gyromount and a STR of 8, you can use FA with a LMG with no recoil.

If you don't mind having a foregrip or weights instead of a GL, have a STR of 8, and can reliably get 4 successes on a Knockdown test vs. TN 4, then you can also fire a MMG on FA. Having to resist 3L or 4L Stun shouldn't be a problem for the average Heavy Weapons character.

None of which is any help if your main firearms skill is ARs, of course.

BTW, note that tracers provide no benefit if you're using a smartlink, which you probably are.

From this discussion i assume, that you are playing mercenaries or spec ops. Which means, you will probably encounter a lot of different situations.

To be effective in various circumstances, you need at least two different main weapons (with their own skills).

I see two options there. The first, most obvious and probably most versatile would be the Ares Alpha + Grenade Launcher combination with assault rifles and launch weapons as skills. Works for almost every situation, and you get the option to use missile launchers, for anti-tank and surface-to-air-work.

When you want to be stealthy, take a second Ares Alpha, remove the grenade launcher, add a bipod or underbarrel weight, coat it in ruthenium and put a supressor on the barrel. For stealth action, a grenade launcher is Not what you want to use or even carry .


Second option would be a combination of assault-shotgun + light machine gun. In confined spaces, you want to use the shotgun, while in the open, the machine gun is the weapon of choice. Of course, you need a gyromount for the gun, either strapped on, or built into a cyberarm. I suggest a light machine gun, because medium or heavy don't work with a cyberarm-gyromount and are too large, bulky and heavy to carry. With a medium or heavy, sitting in a conventional car seat would already be near impossible.

With this combination, you have more direct firepower, especially if you put an underbarrel grenade launcher on the LMG. The gyromount grants lots of recoil-comp, you can fire full auto as much as you like.

Drawbacks being, you loose the option of the missile launcher, or need another skill. If you don't take the launch weapon skill anyway, make sure you have someone on your team who can make use of missiles, probably the rigger, with launchers mounted on vehicles or drones.

Also, you need to rely on the taser or pistol, for stealthy shots.

SMG is the Runners best friend. The same for (most) spec ops commandos. But since you're a Marine, ares alpha .

There is only one way to solve this.

Maneuver Score!

~J

don't forget (SR3 I'm assuming), with a Str/Bod 8, you can get another +2 RC from foot anchors and -2 to knockdown tests with a balance augmenter.

!

You're right, thanks. Make that two guns, then—the expensive bits (sensor package, etc.) can be swapped between them.

~J

I have found the big problem to face with a gun to be spirits. Someone else mentioned the Yahama Pulsar as a anti-spirit sidearm. I agree with that. I would add a Remington Roomsweeper or sawed off SPAS-22?? loaded with the flame producing rounds from the Cannon Companion, Big D rounds or something like that. I would go with a custom sniper rifle from Cannon Companion for your main gun. Give it a clip so you can change between EX or AV ammo quickly if you need to. I believe you can get a 16S from the rifle plus 2 for EX explosive gives 18S versus spirits. That will hurt up to a force 8 spirit maybe force 9 I can't remember exactly how the Armor power works. Assault rifles are cool and very popular with the real world militaries but there are no creatures with the Armor power in real life. Summoning spirits is really easy in SR3. So easy it was made much more difficult in SR4. Remember APDS/AV ammo does not change a spirit's hardened armor value of twice its' force. Plan for the worst hope for the best. An assault cannon is also a possibility but I prefer the SA rate of fire of the sniper rifle over the SS rate of fire of the assault cannon.

Elemental damage only halves spirit armor. It isn't worth spending the points for an entirely new skill. The pulsar is good for spirits and for dealing stun damage but if you want adedicated anti-spirit weapon ask your GM to let you have a Ronco Pocket Fisherman. Its is compact and easily concealed and it is highly effective against all but the most powerful spirits if you have the stats for it.

Underbarrel flamethrower.

~J

Underb... that's ludicrous! That may be the silli... wait~

Small compressed fuel bottle, balanced to provide some recoil comp, or could be used as a handgrip? Igniter would be lightweight...

IT

COULD

WORK!

Actually, the canon "underbarrel flamethrower" is a modification to the nozzle to mount it an underbarrel configuration with a more convenient trigger—the fuel's still strapped to your back like usual (or wherever else you keep the tanks).

~J

don't they have an underbarrel flamethrower in cannon companion?

Yes and no. Like I said, it's a modification to a standard flamethrower to mount the nozzle in an underbarrel configuration. They don't have a self-contained underbarrel flamethrower.

~J

Yes, they do. It's SMG sized.

Reread the Blazer's entry. It's certainly a self-contained bullpup-SMG-sized flamethrower, but it doesn't attach under any barrels.

~J

It does if you use enough duct tape.

Its more Stargate-y, but I've gotten fond of the p90. I'm all for a weapon that's easier to hide and can unload madness on you as needed. A nice autoshotgun might be useful for a marine tho.

The P90 is a personal defense weapon designed to be used by vehicle crews are other personel who are unlikely to see combat but need a weapon just in case. This discussion has gone round-and-round on SG-1 boards and the general concensus is that it was an intentional snafu on the part of the show's producers due to the fact that the P90 was easier on the crew and the budget for various reasons. For example, because the P90 ejects downward the actors can stand closer together in firefight scenes without worring about hot brass in their faces.

Giving one to a marine as a replacement for a battle rifle and expecting him to fight more effectivly is like giving a Boeing 747 to a group of astronauts as a replacement for a space shuttle and then wondering why they can't get to the moon.