Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Stuff begging to be updated
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
James McMurray
There's a few holes in SR4 that will be covered by future products, but which impact currently ongoing campaigns or conversion of older material. It's probably been handled elsewhere already, but if so, let me know where and I'll stroll away happily. smile.gif

1) Hardened Armor: Two options (really three, as you could combine the two)
  • Have the armor's rating negate damage instead of converting it to stun
  • Have the armor's rating count as free hits instead of resistance dice

There are other options, involving ratios of armor to free hits, etc. but those two are the obvious ones.

A side effect of allowing hardened armor would be APDS suddenly becomes a useful ammo again, if you allow it to negatively affect hardened armor (such as by negating the bonus).

2) Background Count: again, two options (three if combined)
  • apply a dice penalty equal to the background count
  • increase the required threshold by the background count (or reduce net hits by the count)

Background count has always been one of the best ways to bring the power level of magic down. Either of the above options (alternatively applied somehow to drain tests as well) could be useful. Just casting an attack spell increases the count by at least one, more if people start dying.

3) Dikote: something I never really cared for, but it's always been there, so could probably stand a new version. If I were to bother with it, I'd probably have it make armor count as hardned (and limit which armors it could be applied to). I'd also have it increase the DV of melee weapons by 1. Just +1 may sound like too little at first, given the old versions of Dikote, but +1 is effective -3 resistance dice, which sounds pretty beefy to me.

Anybody else have stuff from prior editions that needs updating?
Edward
Dicote should only provide+1DV on a sharp weapon.

Remember it used to be +1 power (always) +1DL on slashing weapons.

Personally I donít see any advantage to a dicoated club.

Edward
Shrike30
*shrug* It's harder? Think aluminum bat versus wood bat, except the alley-bat weighs the same as the wooden one now...
MaxHunter
how about -1 ap?

cheers,

max
James McMurray
Sorry, I didn't mean to say that I'd open up Dikote's full usage to blunt weapons. That would stay the same as in previous editions. So maybe +1 DV for edged, -1 AP for everything?
emo samurai
Shouldn't it be awesomer? Like, +2/-2? Otherwise, anything with EX/EX would destroy melee in terms of damage.
Butterblume
Who is to say it doesn't ?
emo samurai
Doesn't what?
Kremlin KOA
if you continue the edition change patterns, it is possible Dikote will nto give bonuses anymore, as 3e Dikote was significantly weaker than 2e Dikote
James McMurray
It'll almost assuredly do something, just not likely to be anywhere near as nice as +1 power +1 DL.
Kremlin KOA
or te 2e version which also had , ignore the monuses when going up aggainst vehicle targets.. but also ignore the vehicle rules and treat it as a non vehicular target
James McMurray
Or the 1e version, which basically said "I win."

Ok, I don't remember the 1e version, but that appears to be the progression so far. smile.gif
Shrike30
QUOTE (emo samurai)
Shouldn't it be awesomer? Like, +2/-2? Otherwise, anything with EX/EX would destroy melee in terms of damage.

Which is why you're paying 10 nuyen.gif a round for EXEX ammunition.

I just made EXEX stop existing in my game. Fixed a lot of problems.
emo samurai
nuyen.gif 10 a round is nothing if each one kills somebody. And does the nuyen.gif go before or after the number?
James McMurray
After. And I agree, I'll gladly pay 10:nuyen: a round for soemthing as blatantly powerful as EXEX. I'm not sure what we'll do in my games, but it might just be a more liberal interpreatation of the fire element effects making the PCs a little leery.
Cain
QUOTE (Shrike30)
QUOTE (emo samurai @ Mar 29 2006, 01:00 PM)
Shouldn't it be awesomer? Like, +2/-2? Otherwise, anything with EX/EX would destroy melee in terms of damage.

Which is why you're paying 10 nuyen.gif a round for EXEX ammunition.

I just made EXEX stop existing in my game. Fixed a lot of problems.

I jacked up the availiability on it, and the other game-breaking ammo (APDS, AV). It was still very cool to get, but much harder to find, and thus more valued. People certainly weren't blowing it left and right, a problem I've seen frequently.
Jaid
APDS game-breaking?

How?
James McMurray
I personally would rather have Ex ammo than APDS. Same general stats but better against unarmored foes and a damn sight cheaper and easier to find.
Cain
QUOTE (Jaid)
APDS game-breaking?

How?

In one SR2 campaign, APDS became so prevalent that it was standard-issue for every runner. We were packing belts and belts of the stuff, enough so that we never needed to buy anything else. Armor became essentially useless, since you couldn't pack enough of it on to make more than a small difference. In SR3, it gave too much power to hold outs. Also, it really messed up high-end opponents, who tended to wear heavier armor in the first place. The scaled nature of APDS (half armor) really screwed heavily armored opponents a lot more than lightly armored ones.
hyzmarca
Excuse me.....

In SR3 an character with a lined coat or better will be resisting a TN of 2 vs an APDS equipped hold out pistol. The same character would also be resisting against a TN of 2 vs a hold out pistol with standard ammo because the TN cannot be lower than 2. Unless your GM is crazy enough to allow gel packs APDS will do nothing in a holdout pistol most of the time. If your GM does allow gelpacks the holdout APDS can defeat a sull suit of hardened FFBA when a regular holdout can't. This isn't exactly gamebreaking.
Cain
The problem was indeed hardened armor. Modified hold-outs could threaten people in light mil-spec. AV was worse, since now your Ares Predator could take out a Steel Lynx with a good shot.
hyzmarca
Armor piercing bullets that actually pierce armor. That is most certainly broken.

From a ballistics standpoint pistol APDS is absurd, but it is consistant with in game logic.
From a ballistics standpoint pistol AV is absurd but it is also consistant with in game logic.

neko128
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
From a ballistics standpoint pistol APDS is absurd, but it is consistant with in game logic.

In what way is APDS absurd from a ballistics point of view?
hyzmarca
That its used in pistols. Others on thus fourm are more familiar with the math than I but this subject has come up before.
Cain
I actually prefer the SR4 method on this one-- armor-piercing bullets that have a fixed reduction, as opposed to a scaled one. High-end armor becomes a little less scary, but is still tough. APDS + Heavy Pistols used to mean that mil-spec was nearly useless.
James McMurray
I thnk HJaid's question assumed you meant SR4 APDS was game breaking, since this is an, ummm, SR4 thread.

But yes, APDS in SR3 and lower is game breaking. The only thing that really kept it in check in my games was the "NPCs will go as far as PCs go, do you really want everyone to have APDS / 18+ combat dice / whatever other broken thing came up?"
Kyoto Kid
Formfit armour. There is mention it in the description of the Tir Ghosts in the Friends & Foes chapter but it is nowhere to be found in the equipment lists.

Forearm Guards

Adept powers: Wall Running (the adept pictured in the Awakened chapter looks like she's using it), Traceless Step, Freefall, Facial Sculpt.

DVs for common objects as throwing weapons (Baseballs, Bricks, Bottles, Dwarves, 5 kilo Sockeye Salmon)

Specialised Firearms: Dart pistols/rifles, Splat Guns, Gyrojets.

Expanded vehicle/drone offerings & vehicle design/customisation.
Ankle Biter
APDU heh heh heh

I think that Dicote is becoming less useful as the Sota advances, i.e. on a bronze age sword dikote is a big help but with modern nanosculpted teflon coated unobtainium blades, it dosen't actually change much.
John_Wicker
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
DVs for common objects as throwing weapons (Baseballs, Bricks, Bottles, Dwarves, 5 kilo Sockeye Salmon)

Oh, amen. My players were hired to bust up a casino during our last game, and after taking out the initial opposition they were surpised by the backup.

The ork physad was almost 12 meters away and didn't have a gun (or even the ability to use it). He did have a broken up poker table laying at his feet, though, so he decided he was going to pick it up and throw it at the guards.

Great idea, right? Very cinematic and highly effective, to boot. Except, what's the range of a thrown table? It isn't a throwing knife or an aerodynamic grenade, so I was SOL.

We eventually determined that while he was strong enough to lift it over his head, it was too heavy to throw 12 meters. So instead, he ripped off one of the table's legs and threw it instead.

But it would be nice if there was some kind of range category for ad-hoc missles. Something like (STR / Kilos) per range category, but I suck at designing new elements of the game system like that.
Squinky
Dikote is the devil (from SR3 standpoint). I pray to never see it, or any vibro-weapons in this edition.....

I'd like to assume that all quality weapons and armor are dikoted already...it's just part of the process now....
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012