I have some players that are reluctant to play SR4 before their arch type book comes out. ie mages/magic, sams/man and machine, ....
Here is what I am thinking. Each player will be allowed at any time one respec. A complete regeneration of their pc using all bp, karma, and cash to date, but with the same concept and back story.
thoghts?
Full Version: SR4: letting PCs respec thier chars as books print
I'd allow it at each new book, personally; if only to prevent whinning later.
Our group allows respecs whenever a new book comes out in most campaigns.
i'm a beleiver also.
hm. i've never respecced, nor do i think i'd allow it. matter of fact, i'm likely to give NPCs access to stuff from newer books before i give it to PCs.
Why?
because those with corp connections get new stuff first 
but now most of the stuff in the splatbooks will be old tech
but now most of the stuff in the splatbooks will be old tech
| QUOTE (Egon) |
| I have some players that are reluctant to play SR4 before their arch type book comes out. ie mages/magic, sams/man and machine, .... Here is what I am thinking. Each player will be allowed at any time one respec. A complete regeneration of their pc using all bp, karma, and cash to date, but with the same concept and back story. thoghts? |
That's pretty much the way I handle it too...
mfb's POV makes sense when it's an upgrade book, like the SOTA 'series', but otherwise, I go with the "go ahead and revamp as needed" when we geta book where the players would have otherwise had access to something but could not because we didn't have the book. Really that comes up more with D&D than SR in my experience, but it set the precedence.
i view everything outside the core books as SOTA, basically, whether it says so on the cover or not. i also feel like it's cheating, somewhat, to redo your charsheet every time something new and cool comes out. it's like you didn't earn it.
so tech that came out in 2053 is SOTA in your SR3 game because it is in M&M?
I'd allow changes that were caused soley by the new book coming out: ie. "I would have done THIS had that book been around when I made my character."
I would not allow unrestrited rewrites as that could easily be abused. I would also take the time frame into consideration. If some new gear is cutting edge but the campaign has been running for 5 years (game time), then you can't have started with said gear.
Just common sense really, but I ok with making retroactive changes to chracters if the stuff in the new book is presented as having been there all along.
I would not allow unrestrited rewrites as that could easily be abused. I would also take the time frame into consideration. If some new gear is cutting edge but the campaign has been running for 5 years (game time), then you can't have started with said gear.
Just common sense really, but I ok with making retroactive changes to chracters if the stuff in the new book is presented as having been there all along.
My GM's have never let us respec characters as new books come out.
You suffer till your character dies or we change campgain settings.
you can't respec in real life
You suffer till your character dies or we change campgain settings.
you can't respec in real life
In real life, equipment doesn't disappear because it's in a splatbook that hasn't been released yet. 
No, it just hasent hit the market yet.
Im with MFB on this one, new books = new toys for NPCs, and PCs later.
Im with MFB on this one, new books = new toys for NPCs, and PCs later.
Alltough complete "respecs" would not fly (at all), modding a character to fit new rules can be a sensible thing to do. It depends on the gear in question - essentials are fine, gimmicks can be added within the game.
Should the new essentials be SOTA (ie. a campaign running into the wireless age), even they would have to be aquired ingame.
Should the new essentials be SOTA (ie. a campaign running into the wireless age), even they would have to be aquired ingame.
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| so tech that came out in 2053 is SOTA in your SR3 game because it is in M&M? |
no. before M&M came out, we used the SR2 rules for things. once M&M came out, those who had SR2 biotech and whatnot simply traded them in for their SR3 equivalents.
You could also let them make their chars using 3rd books, then convert stuff they are interested in. There are already several cyberware conversions around, and spells are easy.
Just to clear up my intentions. This would be just a one time respec when your main book comes out. I doubt there are any real surprises as to what books to expect.
technomancers/deckers --> matrix
mages --> magic
sams --> man and machine
riggers --> rigger 4
mixed class one respec when it suits them --> maybe cannon companion, some other book, or tuesday
this is the 4th edition of shadowrun we all know how this works by now. 70% of all possible stuff for your class is in the main 30% is going to be printed in a arch-type expansion book. You don't need that 30% but it is where a lot of nice fill in gear and and a few big toys are.
This is just a way to start running now. I remember in 3rd my sam would have been declared dead on the spot when man and machine came out with out a little touch up. I also remember waiting a year for MaM to come out while mages had magic in the shadows.
technomancers/deckers --> matrix
mages --> magic
sams --> man and machine
riggers --> rigger 4
mixed class one respec when it suits them --> maybe cannon companion, some other book, or tuesday
this is the 4th edition of shadowrun we all know how this works by now. 70% of all possible stuff for your class is in the main 30% is going to be printed in a arch-type expansion book. You don't need that 30% but it is where a lot of nice fill in gear and and a few big toys are.
This is just a way to start running now. I remember in 3rd my sam would have been declared dead on the spot when man and machine came out with out a little touch up. I also remember waiting a year for MaM to come out while mages had magic in the shadows.
I figured that given the way the discussion has grown I might want to clarify: SOTA stuff would not be allowed in a respec, but other things that have been around forever (2055 cyberware just hitting the SR4 ruleset, kung fu, etc.) is fair game. It doesn't make sense to me that suddenly every security gaurd on the planet has an opportunity to know a martial art style when the players have never heard of it, likewise with older gear that is just now available in a rules form.
Previous editions have tended to have a run on nifty stuff like new skills, pieces of gear which are suddenly required to do something the character could already do, and other random nifty stuff like the old "20 karma for a power point" physad holdover until initiating appeared getting phased out. If it's a case of "had this book been out, this character would have had X skill or Y piece of gear, because the new rules make it a core piece of what he does," then hell yes, I'd allow a character to trade in some of his old stuff for things that are more compatible with the game we're now running. It's like converting a char from SR3 to SR4... you're converting him from pre-MagicBook to post-MagicBook.
Am I going to allow a character to change what he does entirely? No. Any changes he makes have got to be explained to me in terms of "Yeah, this thing I used to do, it now gets done this way, so, uh, I'm changing these points *here* over into these points *here*." Seems kinda silly to have characters become "obsolete" IG for an OOG reason.
Am I going to allow a character to change what he does entirely? No. Any changes he makes have got to be explained to me in terms of "Yeah, this thing I used to do, it now gets done this way, so, uh, I'm changing these points *here* over into these points *here*." Seems kinda silly to have characters become "obsolete" IG for an OOG reason.
Pretty much Shrike30. The PCs have a valid concern that the new core books coming out will make them obsolete. I don't want that any more then they do.
To my mind the New Books are the New Nerps!
Everyone (PCs) should work to get the "new" kit.
NPCs however, the right ones are usually SOTA and beyond.
Everyone (PCs) should work to get the "new" kit.
NPCs however, the right ones are usually SOTA and beyond.
I would say when a new splat book comes out, that person can get what they want out of there.. but they have to save up and get it (be that Karma or NuYen)...
| QUOTE (Egon) |
| Pretty much Shrike30. The PCs have a valid concern that the new core books coming out will make them obsolete. I don't want that any more then they do. |
i'm still not sure i understand. what do you expect to see in these books that would make characters obsolete? even if each book contains some magical piece of gear that makes anyone who doesn't have it explode, it's your choice as the GM when to introduce it.
if you're just talking about swapping out (to use a 3rd ed example) Electronics (Maglocks) for Electronics (Security Systems), i can see that. but that's not what comes to mind when i think of "respeccing"--that, to me, involves rebuilding the character from the ground up.
| QUOTE |
| kingma15 Posted on Apr 20 2006, 08:54 AM I would say when a new splat book comes out, that person can get what they want out of there.. but they have to save up and get it (be that Karma or NuYen)... |
Yeah, this is how our group does things, too. We're already hoarding our karma and nuyen in breathless anticipation... I just wish we could earn interest on the Karma (the nuyen, yeah, we can invest that. But we want more KARMA!!!!).
I would say that, if i were running a game and a new book came out with cool toys, those new toys are SOTA. and that means there will be new runs that focus on key peices of ware or weapons, as other corps try to get a copy so they can make a good knockoff.
basicly make them availible in-game, and people can buy them when they can afford them. I would probably stage it so that things became availible over time, rather than all at once. if you get a couple new SOTA items availible in game every game, then you can stretch that tech curve out a ways. make things interesting. and that means runs to grab prototypes can be so much more fun.. get it before it hits the streets.
basicly make them availible in-game, and people can buy them when they can afford them. I would probably stage it so that things became availible over time, rather than all at once. if you get a couple new SOTA items availible in game every game, then you can stretch that tech curve out a ways. make things interesting. and that means runs to grab prototypes can be so much more fun.. get it before it hits the streets.
The problem arises when you're running a game of SR4 and the stuff that comes out in the new book has been available to the world for 20 years.
Example: Arsenal comes out and has boosted reflexes. (remember, I don't know anything, this is just an example) Boosted reflexes have been around for freaking ever. But they're not in SR4.
Would you let a player say: "My character totally would've gotten boosted reflexes instead of wired/synaptic" and just let them swap them out, recalculate essence, and pay/refund the difference in nuyen, and retcon it to say that that's what they had all along?
Would you let a player say: "My character totally would've gotten boosted reflexes instead of wired/synaptic" and just let them swap them out, recalculate essence, and pay/refund the difference in nuyen, and retcon it to say that that's what they had all along?
I would allow characters to make a limited re-spec to accomodate changes in the core rules. I.E. If your character is built around a set of rules that no longer exist, or were drastically changed, affecting your character's viability. Like, for instance, if I had a decker and we upgraded from SR3 to SR4.
But if Arsenal comes out with new toys (guns, etc), I wouldn't let players retroactively say "my character didn't actually start with a Slivergun, he started with the SOTA self guided rocket launcher of doom". Instead, they've got to find/buy/steal that in game.
But if Arsenal comes out with new toys (guns, etc), I wouldn't let players retroactively say "my character didn't actually start with a Slivergun, he started with the SOTA self guided rocket launcher of doom". Instead, they've got to find/buy/steal that in game.
What if the gun he wanted to start with wasn't SOTA?
whether it's SOTA or not, it gives the character something to work towards. why just hand it to the character, when you can make them work for it? what's the upside to just handing out new toys? you lose all kinds of opportunity for rp, character development, etcetera.
The upside is that it makes sense for an established character to have been able to access the things in the game world. It also avoids screwing them over when something more fitting for their concept comes along but they don't use it because they already spent their resources elsewhere.
Besides, nothing is getting handed out, it's getting traded in. And none of the non-SOTA toys are new, they've been around for years. If it works for your group that's cool, my group prefers the other option.
Besides, nothing is getting handed out, it's getting traded in. And none of the non-SOTA toys are new, they've been around for years. If it works for your group that's cool, my group prefers the other option.
how does it make sense for to have always had this gear, when they haven't had it in the past? continuity errors rarely make sense.
What if it's a character that had boosted reflexes in SR3, got converted to SR4 and swapped out for wired, since that's all their was, then when Arsenal comes back and reintroduces them, do "two wrongs make a right?"
no comment. i don't anticipate encountering such issues, myself.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| how does it make sense for to have always had this gear, when they haven't had it in the past? continuity errors rarely make sense. |
I would rather do a handwave that says "all those bullets you fired before were from gun X" then screw a player out of a gun that always existed, just not in an available rules form.
ive noticed a few people say "you cant do blah blah blah in real life"...that is an invalid argument. This is exactly the opposite. a game. I dont mean to be childish about it but you cant shoot fireballs in real life either. and combat doesnt happen in increments of 3 seconds....
This game has made me find a new hatred for people, GM's have this rediculous power trip. People can do whatever they want, thats the point of tabletop gaming. Why would anyone want to play a game where they can't do anything they want just because their GM is a nazi.
I mean everyone says the point of the game is to have fun.
Is it less for for the GM if someone respecs their character?? if your answer is yes than you have some serious control issues you need to get looked at.
Is it MORE fun for someone to be able make and play their character how they want as long as they are not hindering others peoples fun and not abusing the rules in a negative way? hell yes.
now you might argue, well, respecing your char IS abusing the rules, but im sorry the answer to that is still no. There is no abuse unless you are somehow getting a rediculously unfair advantage over other players. If everyone is allowed to respec then no one has an advantage....
this might seem like a pointless rant from some random forum newb but the things people were saying just struck a bad chord...sorry.
This game has made me find a new hatred for people, GM's have this rediculous power trip. People can do whatever they want, thats the point of tabletop gaming. Why would anyone want to play a game where they can't do anything they want just because their GM is a nazi.
I mean everyone says the point of the game is to have fun.
Is it less for for the GM if someone respecs their character?? if your answer is yes than you have some serious control issues you need to get looked at.
Is it MORE fun for someone to be able make and play their character how they want as long as they are not hindering others peoples fun and not abusing the rules in a negative way? hell yes.
now you might argue, well, respecing your char IS abusing the rules, but im sorry the answer to that is still no. There is no abuse unless you are somehow getting a rediculously unfair advantage over other players. If everyone is allowed to respec then no one has an advantage....
this might seem like a pointless rant from some random forum newb but the things people were saying just struck a bad chord...sorry.
Sorry, due to a fundamental rule of internet debates, you lost as soon as you used the word nazi.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| I would rather do a handwave that says "all those bullets you fired before were from gun X" then screw a player out of a gun that always existed, just not in an available rules form. |
how is the character screwed out of having the gun? do they lack money to buy it? again--something to work towards.
| QUOTE (chewy01234) |
| Is it less for for the GM if someone respecs their character?? if your answer is yes than you have some serious control issues you need to get looked at. |
malarky. as a GM, i derive my enjoyment of the game by making the players work hard for their rewards, both in-game (gear, karma) and out-of-game (roleplaying, character development). it's not control issues, it's a desire to pit my creations against other players and see how well they fare. handing out freebies to characters ruins my fun because it means i'm now short a plot hook or a point of character development.
Your point is appreciated, chewy, and I think many of the people in favor of respecing would agree with you.
Bear in mind, however, that for many people/groups (not just GMs) the verisimilitude is very important to their enjoyment of the game. Massive retconning can literally wreck the game for some people, as it can destroy the illusion that the story in the game is "real." (maybe I should add a few extra sets of quotes around "real", but I think you get my point)
Obviously, respecing is something that some groups will be fine with and some won't.
I think the only real issue that we can hope to achieve something resembling consensus on is how to handle it when the group is split on whether it's a good idea.
Personally, I feel like you should probably only do the respecing thing if the whole group is cool with it. But this is one of those threads where the "YMMV" is implicit at the end of every post.
Bear in mind, however, that for many people/groups (not just GMs) the verisimilitude is very important to their enjoyment of the game. Massive retconning can literally wreck the game for some people, as it can destroy the illusion that the story in the game is "real." (maybe I should add a few extra sets of quotes around "real", but I think you get my point)
Obviously, respecing is something that some groups will be fine with and some won't.
I think the only real issue that we can hope to achieve something resembling consensus on is how to handle it when the group is split on whether it's a good idea.
Personally, I feel like you should probably only do the respecing thing if the whole group is cool with it. But this is one of those threads where the "YMMV" is implicit at the end of every post.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| how is the character screwed out of having the gun? do they lack money to buy it? again--something to work towards. |
They're screwed because they specialized in a different gun because it's what was there at the time.
so re-specialize.
Unless I'm mistaken you can't respecialize in SR4. I could be wrong about that.
But there are other things that could be thematically appropriate to a character besides a gun. Older cyberware fits better into the idea of an older runner, but may not have been put into SR4 because in 2070 its obsolete. A specific spell or centering skill may fit more.
My point is not that soeone can't have a gun, it's that there are things that exist in the world that don't exist inthe game yet, and having those be unavailable simply because they don't exist in rule form strikes me and my group as wrong. Like I said, it works for your group and that's fine.
But there are other things that could be thematically appropriate to a character besides a gun. Older cyberware fits better into the idea of an older runner, but may not have been put into SR4 because in 2070 its obsolete. A specific spell or centering skill may fit more.
My point is not that soeone can't have a gun, it's that there are things that exist in the world that don't exist inthe game yet, and having those be unavailable simply because they don't exist in rule form strikes me and my group as wrong. Like I said, it works for your group and that's fine.
*shrug* i guess. personally, i would just port the weapon over on my own, and then use the official stats once they're published. it's more consistent, which is something i value.
Well. If the new gear is not essential, the PC may aquire it ingame. If the new gear is not SOTA and required or nearly so because of new rules, any char affected might even get it free.
If you at all cost must roleplay the rulechange, make it so that the char has said equipment and it is freshly broken (not with implants).
If you at all cost must roleplay the rulechange, make it so that the char has said equipment and it is freshly broken (not with implants).
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| if you're just talking about swapping out (to use a 3rd ed example) Electronics (Maglocks) for Electronics (Security Systems), i can see that. |
That's *exactly* the kind of think I'm talking about.
Another good example might be when ... durr, was it Matrix 2.0 that made the huge change from "tinkertoy model haxx0r mazes" to "hosts?" There's an enormous amount of stuff involved in something like that which a character doesn't have access to until the book comes out, but when it does, the world goes through this mysterious, instantaneous change. Having a player update a character so it can basically do what it used to, just under the rules we're playing with now that the new book is out is fine by me. Having him go "I don't like how decking works anymore, I'm gonna be a sammie," would be a situation that calls for a new character, not an adjustment to the old one.
Another example (and the one I used before) was SR3, prior to the magic book coming out. Physads used to be able to barf up 20 karma and get another power point. After the magic book, they were expected to Initiate instead, as the "20 karma" rule was really a stopgap measure meant to allow them to advance beyond 6 points worth of abilities during the pre-book time. A respec in that situation would involve saying "okay, you've got all that karma back, go ahead and put it towards initiating."
I'm not one for crippling characters because the rules changed on them, or keeping old rules "grandfathered" in because the character is old. But if you're going to hand me a new character after a book comes out, it'd better be a new character.
okay. i don't use the psuedo-word "respec" that way. i view what you're talking about as simply adapting to new rules.
Fair enough. 
| QUOTE (Shrike30) |
| After the magic book, they were expected to Initiate instead, as the "20 karma" rule was really a stopgap measure meant to allow them to advance beyond 6 points worth of abilities during the pre-book time. A respec in that situation would involve saying "okay, you've got all that karma back, go ahead and put it towards initiating." |
i've done that. however, i wouldn't allow the adept to pick up different powers, and i don't think i'd allow the adept to pick new powers--in other words, the adept could only initiate as many times as he'd bought a new power point. that will leave him a nice chunk of karma afterwards, which he's free to use to initiate in-game.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.