ok. i just realised that i don't know how the heal spell is supposed to be rolled.
i'm reading and re-reading the spell 3rd core 193-4
i get the target number, and i get the drain
i do not get that is the splitting sucesses between time and boxes healed.
what it the base time (1hr is what i've always thought, but it dosent actually say)
what dose permanent actually mean? full health, or what was healed not popping back?
Full Version: the heal spell
| QUOTE (Straight Razor) |
| ok. i just realised that i don't know how the heal spell is supposed to be rolled. i'm reading and re-reading the spell 3rd core 193-4 i get the target number, and i get the drain i do not get that is the splitting sucesses between time and boxes healed. what it the base time (1hr is what i've always thought, but it dosent actually say) what dose permanent actually mean? full health, or what was healed not popping back? |
The base time and permanent are related. All permanent spells have a period in which they must be sustained before becoming permanent. Somewhere in the magic chapter, this period, measured in turns, is given for various things. IIRC, it's 10 or 15 turns that the magician has to be sitting there touching the target.
Permanent means the damage will remain gone after the period is complete.
The magician doesn't have to be touching the target for 15 turns, he just has to be sustaining the spell and he takes sustaining penalties just like any other sustained spell.
Essentially, a perment spell is a sustained spell whose effects become permenant after some ammount of time. Once the effect becomes permenant the magician can stop sustaining. If the magician stops sustaining before then the effect goes away.
With the heal spell, if the magician stops sustaining too early all the damage comes back (on top of any damage that the character may have taken while the spell was being sustained, potentially putting the character into overflow or worse) and that damage can never be healed by magic again.
Essentially, a perment spell is a sustained spell whose effects become permenant after some ammount of time. Once the effect becomes permenant the magician can stop sustaining. If the magician stops sustaining before then the effect goes away.
With the heal spell, if the magician stops sustaining too early all the damage comes back (on top of any damage that the character may have taken while the spell was being sustained, potentially putting the character into overflow or worse) and that damage can never be healed by magic again.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| With the heal spell, if the magician stops sustaining too early all the damage comes back (on top of any damage that the character may have taken while the spell was being sustained, potentially putting the character into overflow or worse) and that damage can never be healed by magic again. |
So if you have a guy in your power and for whatever reason don't want to kill him, you can still injure him terribly and fake-heal his wounds to seal off magical healing and keep him out of action for an extra few days. I never knew that.
| QUOTE (Taran) | ||
So if you have a guy in your power and for whatever reason don't want to kill him, you can still injure him terribly and fake-heal his wounds to seal off magical healing and keep him out of action for an extra few days. I never knew that. |
Heal is voluntary, so the target may not allow you to even try.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| With the heal spell, if the magician stops sustaining too early all the damage comes back (on top of any damage that the character may have taken while the spell was being sustained, potentially putting the character into overflow or worse) and that damage can never be healed by magic again. |
Depends on your reading of what "successful" use of the spell is.
~J
Hm. Does that make Heal spells automatically fail vs someone with the positive quality of magic resistance? As from what I recall (no book in front of me) the MR quality makes you automatically fail 'voluntary' as you can't lower it on your own.
My interpertation is that you have to roll your magic resistance dice (without an accompanying stat) against voluntary spells at the standard magic resistance TN of (Force). Any success are subtracted from the success of the magician casting the beneficial spell.
hyzmarca nailed it.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| Heal is voluntary, so the target may not allow you to even try. |
Nuts. Oh well. I guess you could maim him, beat him into unconsciousness, and then go for it.
| QUOTE |
| hyzmarca nailed it. |
That's incorrect. Rather, it's correct in that spells that can be resisted must be, but spells like Heal that require a voluntary target will always fail. No resistance test, no nothing. If it needs a voluntary target, your guy with Magic Resistance ain't it.
| QUOTE (SRComp p28) |
| A character with Magic Resistance is never a willing subject for spells with the “requires a voluntary subject” modifier. Such spells automatically fail when used on magic resistant characters. |
(Emphasis original)
~J
must create involuntary heal spell
Trivial to do, drain's just harsh.
~J
~J
yeah but I only need it at force 1 to do the you can't be healed any more trick
They do still get to resist. Granted in most cases you'll outdice them, but note that you're still going to have to make sure you're able to soak the 2(their wound level +1) Drain while still exceeding their resistance test against TN 2.
~J
~J
What would they resist with, besides MR dice?
Willpower.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Willpower. |
MitS page 50 makes it sound like the designer could choose Body or Willpower in this case at the time of spell creation. As a GM I would generally rule Body for a Forced Heal spell.
I see where you're coming from. I'm still leaning towards Willpower, but Body's reasonable.
On the other hand, by that section a designer could choose Charisma or Quickness…
~J
On the other hand, by that section a designer could choose Charisma or Quickness…
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| <snip> |
Ah yes, forgot about the "voluntary" part of resistance.
Hm. I wonder if the BP cost is appropriate then. For a mere increase of 1 die of resistance to other spells, you suddenly become immune to healing that to a degree even cybered dudes can still get.
Hm. Another angle might be change it so each die you buy reduces the die pool of the caster (kinda like murky link). Just me, but if you forever give up magical healing, you should get more bang for your buck
Hm. Another angle might be change it so each die you buy reduces the die pool of the caster (kinda like murky link). Just me, but if you forever give up magical healing, you should get more bang for your buck
| QUOTE (Straight Razor) |
| ok. i just realised that i don't know how the heal spell is supposed to be rolled. i'm reading and re-reading the spell 3rd core 193-4 i get the target number, and i get the drain |
I'm not sure if you ever got all the explanations you wanted, so:
| QUOTE |
| i do not get that is the splitting sucesses between time and boxes healed. |
You can allocate successes to either the number of boxes healed, or at least 2 successes to reduce the time needed to sustain the spell until the effects become permanent.
| QUOTE |
| what it the base time (1hr is what i've always thought, but it dosent actually say) |
Base times depend on Drain Level. They are noted in SR3 on page 178.
| QUOTE |
| what does permanent actually mean? full health, or what was healed not popping back? |
The boxes healed not popping back.
| QUOTE (Straight Razor @ Apr 21 2006, 11:49 PM) |
| ok. i just realised that i don't know how the heal spell is supposed to be rolled. i'm reading and re-reading the spell 3rd core 193-4 i get the target number, and i get the drain i do not get that is the splitting sucesses between time and boxes healed. what it the base time (1hr is what i've always thought, but it dosent actually say) what dose permanent actually mean? full health, or what was healed not popping back? |
Not sure if your answers have all been addressed yet...
EDIT: Uhh... nothing to see here (unless you are interested in the SR4 answer to a SR3 question, that is).
[ Spoiler ]
Bye
Thanee
| QUOTE (Thanee @ Apr 29 2006, 04:47 AM) |
| Not sure if your answers have all been addressed yet... Permanent spells need to be sustained for 2 combat turns per DV of drain <snip> |
Wtf?
I have no idea where you got any of your erroneous explanation. Spreading misinformation? SR4? ???
The base time to sustain the spells is based on their drain code in multiples of 5. Base time can be reduced by dividing by, not subtracting, successes. That is why I stated at least 2, because allocating only 1 and dividing by 1 is a waste of a success.
Heal and Treat spells have variable drain codes based on the amount of damage the target has sustained. Thus, in your 5 boxes of damage example, the base time to make the spell permanent is 10 turns. With 7 successes (I notice you say hits, are you in SR4?), 5 will fully heal all damage and the remaining 2 can reduce the sustaining time to 5 combat turns.
| QUOTE (tisoz @ Apr 29 2006, 01:50 PM) |
| SR4? |
Err... Oops! Missed the SR3 reference.
Thanks for noticing!
Bye
Thanee
I just found this - thought it relevant and aguementative. 
| QUOTE (info@shadowrunrpg.com) |
>When does a spell of Permanent Duration ( such as Treat or Influence) take >effect? As soon as the magician casts it, at the end of the base time >(perhaps divided by successes), or something else? At the end of the time it takes to become permanent (see p. 178, SR3). :: Rob Boyle :: Shadowrun Developer for FanPro LLC info@shadowrunrpg.com ~ www.shadowrunrpg.com |
I always played this way and found I was in the minority and, for once, agreeing with Rob. In my games, the spell has no effects until it has been sustained long enough to become permanent, aka, finished, completed, or done.
[edit] This was from a couple of years ago and concerns SR3. [/edit]
odd. it certainly and quite specifically didn't work that way in SR3. i can see how the wording in SR4 would permit that ruling, but it's a pretty awkward fit--if that was the intent of the rules, it should be worded much more clearly.
Bizarrely, I agree with the ruling (in the sense that that's what I think it should be), but as mfb points out it continues the tradition of having no grounding whatsoever in the actual text.
New theory: Rob writes all rules, then he and about twelve people play "telephone". What the last guy writes down gets published, but Rob bases his rulings/opinions on what he wrote.
~J
New theory: Rob writes all rules, then he and about twelve people play "telephone". What the last guy writes down gets published, but Rob bases his rulings/opinions on what he wrote.
~J
hm. i don't really see any reason why it 'should' be one way or the other. it works one way, or it works another; how it works is an aspect of unknown and possibly unknowable magical law.
Well, the reason being that it avoids the "cast Heal to prevent healing" bug. Others may not consider that a bug.
~J
~J
eh... meh. it's not a bug, it's a feature! besides, Heal is voluntary--if an enemy mage is trying to heal you while giving you an evil grin, i'd pretty much say you're going to resist it.
| QUOTE |
| Well, the reason being that it avoids the "cast Heal to prevent healing" bug. |
Not really since one can withhold hits from the test (SR4, 173), insuring it will heal only one box, and then sustain until permanent. But the drain is much worse for Heal in SR4, so doing that is nasty to the caster, too.
[SR4] Step 5: Determine Effect comes before Step 7: Ongoing Effects, thus the spell takes effect when cast and becomes permanent after so many turns.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| eh... meh. it's not a bug, it's a feature! besides, Heal is voluntary--if an enemy mage is trying to heal you while giving you an evil grin, i'd pretty much say you're going to resist it. |
Unconscious individuals.
~J
i think i'd allow even an unconscious target to resist a spell from an enemy mage; i don't recall any ruling saying that unconscious targets are always willing. after all, they would get a resistance test against a fireball spell, even while unconscious.
Having the spell take effect and then become perment is better for dramatic effect.
i dunno. defending the mage who's sustaining the heal spell on your team's street sam is pretty dramatic. it doesn't really matter to me which way it works, as long as it works consistently.
| QUOTE (MitS p56) |
| Unconscious targets are considered voluntary targets for health spells. |
~J
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| depends. defending the mage who's sustaining the heal spell on your team's street sam is pretty dramatic. |
Yeah, and if the spell isn't made permanent, all the healing is undone. So you see the sam healed, he starts shooting, the mage gets knocked down and suddenly the sam is sprutting blood everywhere - again. Best of all, he can't be magically healed after that. Oops.
| QUOTE (MitS p56) |
| Unconscious targets are considered voluntary targets for health spells. |
bah, MitS doesn't count. MitS ruins everything.
| QUOTE (Kandada Ten) |
| Yeah, and if the spell isn't made permanent, all the healing is undone. So you see the sam healed, he starts shooting, the mage gets knocked down and suddenly the sam is sprutting blood everywhere - again. Best of all, he can't be magically healed after that. Oops. |
right. dramatic!
The fun comes when you take a serious wound, get healed, and then take another serious wound before it becomes permenant so you'll go into overflow if the game gets geeked.
In SR4 all unconscious targets are considered voluntary, under Range page 195... However, Heal doesn't require a voluntary target! It does require touch (all health spells in 4 do).
Furthermore, "Permanent spells must be sustained for a short time, after which their effects become "natural" and no longer require magic or concentration to maintain." Pretty much has to take effect first, for them to become natural later, eh?
Furthermore, "Permanent spells must be sustained for a short time, after which their effects become "natural" and no longer require magic or concentration to maintain." Pretty much has to take effect first, for them to become natural later, eh?
the text doesn't specifically say that the naturalization and the spell effect don't occur at the same time, so you could argue that they do. but, like i said, if that's the meaning that sentence was intended to convey, it's awkward as hell.
On the contrary, the text implicitly says that they don't.
| QUOTE (SR3 p178) |
| If the caster stops sustaining the spell before the required time has passed, its effects disappear |
(Emphasis added)
~J
oh, yeah, in SR3. i meant SR4, though. i'm basically just covering my bases by pointing out that you can twist the SR4 text to read the way Rob says it reads. but you have to twist pretty hard.
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