If players insist on magemasks being 100% realistic put a trode net on them THEN the magemask, and put them with the trades in full VR via the technological equivalent of Resonance Trodes. The then-VR mage can be safely handled. Attach a biomonitor with subscribed hypodermic that drugs the ever living cr*p out of the mage if the biomonitor picks up synaptic changes associated with projection. [visual stimuli, etc].

Oh, and a warded bodybag with a rigid backing riveted to the plastic so a rivet can serve as the anchor for the ward.

Personally I'd prefer players just allow the magemask as an artificial game mechanic make it impossible to cast.

You'd think so, wouldn't you. ... But not according to the canon.

I'm pretty sure that it was that way from the beginning. I think that incantations and gestures were either gaesa that you could use to restore lost magic, or were supposed to be centering related activity. But in normal conditions, you could just look at someone and make their head explode.

The hand weaving and chanting is also used with the meta magic centring and I would make it neccesary for using focused concentration

It requires at least 10 karma, plus whatever roleplay the GM deems appropriate, according to canon. More, if you want it done right.


Not quite. Centering could be any particular artistic skill; chanting in mystical tongues was just once choice among many. You could play an electric keyboard instead, or do yoga. Look at the 1st ed Grimoire for some other examples. Hand waving was part of the Gesture geas; it was only a requirement then. Focused Concentration requires none of the above-- that's what you paid BP for.

Whats to stop the mage from powerbolting their magecuffs though? Sure, they're "highly processed", so they just whip up a nice big powerbolt, force 6, and hope they get at least 4 hits to effect it. Since the magic has to happen for the cuffs to detect, then the spell goes off, rents apart the cuffs, and no shock happens cause they're in tiny pieces.


As far as the trodes go, being in VR only gives a -6 penalty to perception (and therefore spellcasting) while in VR. (SR4, 228)

So, that means the mage could make a perception test at -6 to "see/feel" the trodes, and then make his spellcasting test at -6 to blow the trodes off his head. Then, having accomplished that (possibly taking many tries) he could then powerbolt the magemask off (after trying repeatedly to pass that mental test to make an action) and hes pretty much home free at that point.

As far as hypodermic that drugs for projection? It isn't visual, so visual stimuli doesn't qualify. Also, if you have them in VR, they probably are getting sent visual simulus via the simsense feed anyway.

Warded bodybag? Sweet, powerbolt the bag. Alternately, have a nice bound spirit of your materialize inside of it, and rip it open for you.

Absolutes are bad. Even if its a 0.00001% chance, give them the chance.

There was a bodybuilder who was in a type of circus show I saw, a long time ago. He used to snap handcuffs on a regular basis-- no tools, just by flexing. Just because something is possible, doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to try and deal with the possibility.

The rules aren't specific as to when the device would trigger, but I would rule that the device is sensitive enough and designed to trigger whenever the mage begins to channel his mana or whatever. Triggering before he has a chance to cast his spell. Casting is a complex action generally taking a mage about 3 seconds after all.


I disagree. Some absolutes are necessary in any game. A sam can be deprived of his gun, it makes sense for a mage to be deprived of his magic from time to time. Force the player to rely upon other options every once in a while.


Unless I'm missing some new rules from unwired, loosing a SIN is a matter of a good chunk karma and how hard the GM wants it to be.

QUOTE (kzt)
You'd think so, wouldn't you. ... But not according to the canon.



The point is that the fluff has it happening all the time.

Its nice that you would rule that way, but the rules say its glomoss, and glomoss can't react until after the spell is cast from the way its worded in the book. Also, its not that casting takes 3 seconds, as a mage with 4 IPs can cast in less than 1 second.


Really? Even cyberguns? Please, tell me how.

Well, aside from the obvious things like surgery and the like, there are always those cyber-inhibiting bracelets that airlines like to give out to chromed-up gun bunnies.

I'm not going to get into a sematic rules discussion as to the meaning of the word 'when.' I just think it is reasonable to assume that a device intended to prevent a mage from casting spells would work as intended. Triggering before the spells is actually cast.



Cyberguns? Really you can't think of any way they could be disarmed? Like maybe unloading the ammo from them? Or inserting a jack-stopper into the firing port? Or disconecting the guns DNI? Or undergoing cyber-surgery to remove the gun?

You really don't think there is any way to take a cybergun away from a character?

Or by calling the authorities and having said person arrested for the federal crime (just about anywhere in the world) of carrying a firearm and/or other illegal cyberware into a security zone? The airport and other mass-transit security types don't play, homie. You get caught and they will drag you off to the Happy Fun Cavity Search Room of Warm Fuzziness rather than giving you a potentially removable bracelet and getting your pinky swears that you won't be using those illegal mods while you're on the plane, train, whathaveyou.

There might be an exception if you're a fully-credited CorpSec operative but then you'd just be using company transportation so it's a moot point.

Cyber-inhibiting bracelets? How the heck would that work? Do they have one that makes titanium stop being denser than bone?

Removing a cybergun is potentially a very easy procedure, depending where the gun is located. Since the dominate arm is rather common, a simply tourniquet and a chainsaw get the job done fairly well.

The ones that I recall from 1E simply detected the activation of certain pieces of cyber through skinlink. So, if you tried to use that cybergun, it'd activate. The models I remember either zapped you with a lot of electricity, or simply blew up, taking your arm with it.

Really... I mean really a cybergun? Just unload it! No need for fancy cyber-inhibitor collars or what not. What good is a cybergun with no ammo?

Some cyberguns can actually be reloaded, so that might be a problem.

I'm feeling far too lazy to check who said it, but I like the idea of simply plugging the barrel.

If your inmate is getting his hands on ammunition somehow, you have a more serious problem me thinks .

Shrug. I never mentioned anything about inmates or incarceration. I merely pointed out one of the canon methods of dealing with cybered individuals.

Tarantula, if they are in darkness and in full VR and can make a powerbolt at -10 or worse and affect a rating 6+ ward then they deserve freedom.
Moving trodes off? They sit on the top of the head and unless someone is a changeling with eyestalks I dont think they'll see the top of their head inside the bodybag.

The possibility of character loss makes for excitement. Should it be exercised lightly or frequently? No, absolutely not, but it should be a *possibility*.
In the meanwhile I'll amend my previous suggestion to include a DPI-esque astral mage to be present to handle spirits and a patrolman duct taping the prisoner's eyelids shut before applying the magemask and follow it up with a decrease attribute spell inside the warded backplate-rigged bodybag to induce an artificial coma during prisoner transport.

Players should not ALWAYS win. They should use trickery, treachery, and cleverness to evade and foil The Man and the evil corps.

I'd prefer that .0000001 percent chance of succeeding be from the team breaking out their captured mage or a plot device that ensnares them in a plot they might not otherwise agree to. The flexing of magical muscle to trump everything but deadly police response just doesn't seem as dark to me as the grasp of Johnny Law and a dank cell scaring the runner(s).

there comes a point where you just want to hold onto someone long enough for a judge to sign off on the heavy pistol round to the back of the head...

i suspect the mage mask and similar will be used on the kids that have recently awoken, and now is going on a power trip, so that their parents or legal guardian can come and pick them up.

but ones one is talking multiple crowd fireballings and whatsnot, nobody will care if the suspect dies, as long as the rabid beast is now off the streets.

I was meaning things in the same realm of ease as slapping magecuffs/mask on someone. I don't think those cyber bracelets exist anymore in 4th. At least, I haven't noticed them. Can I get a reference?


It says that it is treated as magic sense adept power, using force instead of magic. Magic sense, says, "This power will detect active foci, spells, mana barriers, dual-natured beings, and mana anomalies; on the astral it will also detect astral forms. Treat this power as the Detect Magic spell (p. 199, SR4), with a Force equal to the adept’s Magic." And of course, still tracking this down, going to detect magic, "The subject can detect the presence of all foci, spells, wards,magical lodges, and spirits within range of the sense."
Its pretty clear that it only is active spells, which would mean the spell would get the chance to go off before the mage was shocked.


Not in the same realm that you're throwing magemasks/cuffs as taking away magic. You can't just throw something on a sam and know that his cybergun is now not working.


Its -6. Not -10.

And? Theres great spells called touch spells. Punch is my favorite. They have nice reduced drain, and you can cast on anything touching you, even if you can't see it.


I never disagreed with this, but you shouldn't have to arbitrarily say "you can't" otherwise you turn from the possibility of character loss being exciting, to the players going, "Choo choo! My characters gonna die. Choo choo!"

Your reading way to far into a rule that could easily be settled on that page. The rules are blindingly simple:

"Should the magician attempt any magic, including astral perception or projection, the incandescence from the glow moss triggers and the magician resist 12S Electrical damage."

That's all. There no need to go flipping through three separate books to get a ruling on this one. Is the mage attempting any magic? Then the collar triggers and stuns him. Your logic would seem to indicate that Lone Star would create a device that singularly fails at preventing the one thing it is designed to prevent!


The ability to slap mage-cuffs on somebody seems to imply that you have already subdued them or otherwise have them under control. In such a situation you can easily force the sam to eject his clip (do it or get shot) or shove a jack-stopper in the firing port. That should be simple enough for anyone. But in reality LS response to any dangerous sam or mage is probably to taze/tranq them until they are unconscious, and let the boys down at the station house deal with a more permanent solution. Not to try and restrain somebody who can probably bend steal bars with there bear hands.

First, they reference the rules for the glomoss. So it has to make its check at force 1 to even notice the mage is doing anything.
Second, the example they give is for astral projection, and "The shock is designed to knock the magician out and jerk her astral form back to her body." Obviously, the shock happens AFTER the projection is done. The mage is able to finish their action of projecting, then the moss detects it, and shocks them. Same thing with casting. The mage casts, then the moss detects and shocks.

As far as having the sam eject his clip... First, you need to notice he has a cybergun. Second, you'd have to hope he has it loaded with a clip (and not just being fed off the internal magazine.) Third, theres no reason he couldn't just eject 2 bullets, and go "thats all I had left". Do your lonestar cops usually have the cybertech to know how to check if a cybergun's chamber is clear? As far as a jackstopper... I don't think fancy superglue would do much if at all to prevent the bullets leaving the barrel... but I'm no firearms expert.

As far as just tazering/tranqing guys, I agree, which is why having magemasks or magecuffs around is pointless, and lonestar should just get more fancy incapacitating gear (not that we don't have enough already).

Bang!, Bang! Bang! "Well, with his brains all over the asphalt I'll bet we've disabled his cyberware."

*chuckles* Yep, sounds like The 'Star too me.

Still it strikes me that a simplier solution would be a LOS blocking trodenet/helmet using hot sim to play a BTL/P-Fix loop with an Agent tasked to taze the wearer if he/she does something the Agent didn't like.

Actually you need a LOS to cast touch spells too, according to Synner.

Funny, 'Touch' **was** LOS in all the previous editions.

The whole idea is that you had to synchronize your aura with that of your target(s) so the mana could be manipulated properly by you to affect your target(s).

Besides, if I've got a hand on your shoulder, I don't need to see in order to stab you with a knife with my other hand.

Same concept.

Again, the mage can simply use a touch-range physical combat spell and attempt to notice the trodes/mask on his head at a -6. Then cast that spell on them at a -6. Assuming he can pull off 4 hits (probably a good time for edge) with the spell, he can blow the trodes right off. Sure, he'll eat some dumpshock, but thats nothing compared to going to jail/get killed.


Eh, while the opinion was given by Synner in a statement as the line developer, he was discussing more the nuances of targetting via LOS, not via Touch. Also, since it hasn't been put into errata yet, its only a clarification, but nothing completely official.


Yes, yes it was. Its dumb that you can't get LOS via touch anymore.

So? If a Mage (Or Sammy for that matter.) can fight off the effects of a full blown BTL VR Session coupled with a "Perfect Prisoner P-Fix" and remove the helmet without being shocked into submission by the Agent then it is up to the metahuman guards who are supposed to be guarding the prisoner to give the character a fatal case of lead posioning at the first sign of trouble.

The metagame reason for Mage Masks ect are not to be perfect restaints but are instead there to give DMs an excuse not to have corp sec simply geek a captured character out of hand.

Again, its not fight off the effects of, its ignore the VR world, and just concentrate on powerbolting or whatevering this magemask off me. Then worry about zapping the guards too.

And your point is what exactly? While the Mage/Sammy is busy handling the helmet the metahumans guarding the Mage/Sammy are busy unloading their weapons into the captive which in most cases is probably going to resort in a dead scumbag.

The helmet's purpose is not to be perfect, its job is merely to hinder the captive long enough for said Runner to be geeked if he tries to get out of line. Although what are the rules for ignoring the effects of a P-Fix anyways?

"Handling" the helmet, is a concentration of the mage. Best bet after that, is a good invisibility/levitate combo to get outta dodge. Assuming this is a halfway intelligent mage, spending an edge to go first would be a good idea. Guards hear "bang" turn to the helmet, mage disappears, and... they're in big shit.



AFAIK there aren't any hard rules on how P-fix works. Best thing I can find similar is the psychotropic program option in unwired. Which causes a set list of negative mental effects. None of which would really prevent the mage from escaping.

Sure, they could do a "short term aversion" to say, escaping. But I'd say the mage also has a much stronger aversion to being arrested/imprisoned. Since aversion != inability to do it, the mage wouldn't like it much, but would be able to still try to escape.

Considering that "handling" the helmet involves making a ( Willpower + Intuition 4 ) Roll at -6 Dicepool just to get the chance to cast a high force spell at -6 Dicepool while hoping to beat the helmet's hefty obeject resistance while under the watchful eye of an Agent set to trigger electroshock therapy AND the eyes of a couple of guards ready to splatter the Mage the moment they notice anything wrong a smart Runner is usually going to be better off bidding her time before trying to escape.


And remember, the guards are metahuman, so it isn't going to be that difficult for them to sense the high force spell as the Mage casts it (And even if they flub the detection roll, the helmet exploding is going to render the point moot.), and considering they are guarding such a high risk prisoner they are going to have held actions of "I geek the fragging Mage" that kick in before the poor Mage gets a chance to attempt a second spell.

*EDIT*

Hmm, your reasoning on P-Fixs sounds like a perfect reason not to allow the use of Edge on the rolls to powerbolt the helmet.

Uh, first, I'd argue that being in VR and overriding it would lessen the effect of the helmet on the mage for concentration. Either way, VR only applies penalties to perception tests, not to Willpower+Int tests. So, that one isn't penalized. Second, the agent won't notice anything at all. The mage is still in VR, he just is concentrating more on his physical body. "Hefty object resistance" of 4? Definitely doable, especially with edge. As soon as the powerbolt hits, agent is worthless anyway. Couple of guards? As I said, use edge to go before them. Its great like that. Surprise rules are awesome.

Lastly, yes, they'll notice the spell, mage can still spend edge and go first.

As far as P-Fix, disallowing edge because the character "doesn't want to" is a bad idea. Since the character has no control over edge and its a purely metagame choice of when it is used.

Hmm, you are probably right on the ( Willpower Intitution 4 ) Test. However luckily for the guards, the half-scan Mage trying to pull this off doesn't get a chance to use the Surprise Rules because the Guards get to use the even better Delayed Action Rules in order to geek him first, the Mage doesn't get a chance to use Edge to go first until after the guards pull their triggers.

As for not allowing the use of Edge, considering the suggestions of when DMs should have spirits and other NPCs spend Edge against the players I disagree, especially considering that the Edge Rules have a certain flair that strikes me as Karma Twisting or whatever it was called in Earthdawn.

As far as the guards and being able to shoot the mage.... Typically, I'd say they don't expect for mages to bust out of a magemask trodenet combo. So, I'd say they wouldn't have delayed actions to shoot the mage, unless they're walking with their guns trained on the mage. Considering the mage is in VR, and thusly, needing to be carried, I don't think they're carrying the mage while pointing guns at him.


Bonus to that, the mage after busting the trodes, could just blow edge on taking the guards down with that same touch spell he just used to blow off the helmet. Since he was limp, and needing to be carried, they'd have to be touching him.

You can't have it both ways Tarantula, either the trode-helmet is an effective piece of tech that no-one would expect a Mage to be able to defeat OR it is merely a slight hinderance for the Runner as you have been arguing.

And yes, when dealing with a high threat prisoner like a Mage or a Sammy the guards are going to not only have their guns trained on him but also have their fingers on the trigger. The Mage/Sammy had better hope that nothing startles the guards or he is likely to be shot even if he is being a good prisoner. "Oh well, false alarm, sorry Chummer."

As for having to carry the Mage, sorry, but VR doesn't have to make you go limp, that is merely a safety feature designed to keep people from hurting themselves due to that pesky -6 Dicepool Mod.

Add to that... if the mage is exceptionally skilled, he can powerbolt the magemask AND the guards holding him.

But honestly, if I'm going to use a mage mask on someone... first thing I'm doing is wiring that thing into the security system. The moment it stops working/responding to the system (without being properly shut off first), the system would start pumping in some sort of nasty airborne chemical / acid fog to ruin someone's day. Perhaps even a aerosol based contact poison that causes unconsciousness. I could even go so far as to pump out all of the oxygen (or all the air) . I'd also have the cell warded too. No sense in making it easy should a high threat person be incarcerated within.

As with all things, a mage mask is merely a tool. A proper incarceration / incapacitation set up ***WILL*** use more than just a mage mask, especially if it was determined the perp was a high threat risk.

I'm personally a fan of such devices that are fail-deadly rather than fail-safe. Why hold onto a mage with my hands? Why not use mechanical arms that require my constant grip on their handles such that if I let go (for some reason, like being knocked down, handle ripped from hand, etc), the person being held gets shocked (at whatever intesity I chose to set the shock arms at... like lethal or crispy)?

My old group told me I was particularly evil and malicious... mainly because my solutions were low-cost, multi-faceted, and effective.

I never said it would be easy. In fact, I've advocated spending a minimum of 3 edge for the mage to be able to escape. And thats assuming he can make the Int+Wil(4) test to begin with.


Yes, it does. Show me a quote where it says you can decide to not have it override, and all my non-TM hackers will love you forever.


First, if it stops working, then how does it spray them? Second, the plan I'm describing is pretty much, executed as soon after being masked as possible. So, no cell.

Yes, I agree, further incarceration and the mage is screwed, which is why he needs to meke his attempt/blow his edge on getting out when it is only a magemask on him, and not when he is in lockdown with Bubba the love spirit keeping an eye on him.

Once again: Just because escape is possible does not necessarily mean that every contingency will be planned for.

I met a professional strongman who could snap normal handcuffs. He had off-duty policemen cuff him, and inspect the cuffs, to prove that there was no trick. I was in the audience, and I watched him break them. He claimed he could also snap double and triple sets of handcuffs.

Despite this, no one talked about getting tougher handcuffs for the police department. Why? Because they were tough enough to contain people the vast majority of the time. Just because a few people are strong enough to break free, doesn't mean it's worth it to add the expense to deal with those few people.

Tarantula,

If the mage mask stopped sending signals to the security system, the security system is the piece that opens up the rest of the can-o-whoopass on the mage. The mask is doing nohting but restraining the mage's magical talent and reporting back to the system that it's functioning normally.

Yeah, the mage will want to break past the mask ASAP as not doing so only makes it harder as additional levels of incarceration will only reduce the chances of successful escape to something approaching zero.

Cain,

How would you advocate going after one of the Firewatch Mages? Let's say one went rogue and needed to be incarcerated. How would you do it? This sort of stuff does in fact need to be planned out before it's needed otherwise you get caught with your pants down.

Given the power and skill level of the Firewatch mages, I would expect a magemask to be a relatively minor inconvenience for them.

========

Of course, an even easier way of restraining a mage would be to put him/her into a medically induced coma. Try casting a spell out of that!

What rest of the security system? I thought this was in the context of say, arresting a mage on the street.

Either A) Big big big manastatic, and people to get him in the area of effect.
or B) Stunbolts, lots of them, iwth the "good" mages counterspelling for each other.

Ah, I was operating from the perspective of long term incarceration. Basically, how to screw the mage long term yet not ruin his ability. Ya know, like in a legitimate prison.

And thats the point I was making. The mage needs to get out before he gets in that situation, because the magemask isn't foolproof. Long-term prison is a lot closer to "make a new character".

I like the Laurel K. Hamilton solution to that....

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one, Tarantula, I cannot fathom to the logic of having a device designed to inhibit a mage from casting magic which singularly fails to do so.

------

To me the problem with incarcerating mages has always been long term lock-ups in prisons and the like. For apprehending the mage (or any shadowrunner) it has always been most expedient to knock them out. In my games it has almost always been the only option as my players are generally reluctant to surrender even in the face of overwelming odds.

For short term incarceration (a couple of hours to days) keeping a mage or sam unconcious is still probably the best solution, though mage masks and or other restraints can be used (though they are not a perfect solution). For long term incarciratoin mages are very difficult to keep locked up economically. Keeping a mage unconscious or mage masked for a period longer then a week or so is not very humane (even by SR standards) nor terribly reliable. And while disarming and keeping a sam, phys-adept, or even a technomacer locked up for long periods of time is not difficult, keeping a mage is so. If some sort of device is not introduced (like the mage-cuffs) to disallow a mage from using his magic, it is nearly impossible. A magician who can cast or summon is a deadly threat, and adequate magical defenses against one are very expensive. This problem is even worse when you consider that are likely quite a number of magicians incarcerated at one time.

This is why a device like the mage-cuffs that inhibit spell casting is necessary, or some other similar alternative (I like toxins that temporarily reduce magic score myself). The fact that they can be used on the PCs on the odd occasion when they peacefully surrender to the authorities is just a bonus. Keeping them peaceful when they get picked up by other means is the real reason.

As I've said repeatedly, this all assumes the mage spends/burns edge to succeed on that mental check. Int+Will(4) is nothing to scoff at. TO reliably make the check, you're looking at a 6 in two base attributes. Not exactly a common occurance.

Since there is no real consequence for failing this test and no limit to the number of attempts, there is no reason a mage could not do it repeatedly until he is successful, no need to spend edge. If the test only takes a complex action, it could be beaten rapidly by virtually anyone. Even for someone with sub-average stats (2 int and will) it would take him just over 4 minutes on average to past the test. For someone with average stats it can be done in half a minute, and someone with more reasonable stats (especially for a mage) it would be even quicker. If you interpret the rules like that, the mage-mask is completely ineffective in preventing a mage from casting.

If used together with mage-cuffs it could be an effective deterrent, but only if you rule if the device triggers regardless if the attempt to cast is successful or not. Which seems to be at odd with your interpretation that the magic has to happen to be detected, and thus trigger the cuffs.