Witness
May 9 2006, 10:37 AM
Lot of talk about organised religion here. But what about the mix-your-own beliefs of the average wageslave? IMO the Awakening has probably increased the number of people who would say that they believe in 'some sort of God', but that doesn't necessarily mean they're into any organised religion in any serious way.
If this was realistic, then it seems to me that Science / rationalism would take the biggest hit in terms of the beliefs of your everyday joe. In a world where dragons, elves, magic etc have become real and just about anything is possible then rationalism (and skepticism) hardly has a leg to cling to. The fact that science has achieved anything since the Awakening is probably only thanks to the tech-hungry corps.
And I say this, as a fervent rationalist, with a tear in my eye!
nezumi
May 9 2006, 01:53 PM
A major corporation will likely have support for several mainstream religions. I'm sure the arcology has a few different chapels/temples where people can worship and be mentored by Renraku hired ministers on the virtue of hard work and loyalty. I suspect that hierarchical religions like Catholicism will not be as popular as denominations with a flatter political structure, because having someone above the Renraku hired minister means the company is giving up control. So we can expect something like a Renraku 'version' of Catholicism, that perhaps is not officially recognized by the Vatican, but does hire ex-Catholic ministers and keeps the same traditions, so most people don't really mind so much.
Religions like Shintoism and philosophies of Confuscianism will be more popular, since they encourage people to give up their own self for the greater good of their community. Simultaneously, individualistic religions like unadulterated wicca will be distinctly unpopular. So I'm sure they'll have special off-shoots of wicca (or whatever individualistic religion is popular in the arcology) that is intentionally more communal based.
Over all, religion is a very useful tool that no corporation wants to simply lose. They'd prefer that the company is the central point of the religion, but I'd doubt they'd want to be quite so overt about it, so just keep religion as a useful tool to encourage productivity, passivity, loyalty, honesty and strength.
FanGirl
May 9 2006, 02:22 PM
QUOTE (Glyph) |
It's your campaign, Emo, but if I were to make one suggestion, it would be this - don't impose your own views too strongly, but instead, make it like politics. A million people with a million different positions, and some of them may be more right or reasoned than others, but the trick is hearing them over the background noise of everyone else. If you just stick it into one category, you miss all of the complexity, and all of the ways it adds nice juicy complications to a campaign. |
Yeah! The power of Christ com. . . .aw, forget it.
I know that I already disagree with you about whaling on Humanis members just because they're Humanis members (Emo's for it because he feels that they're the no-holds-barred punching bags of SR, I'm against it because I feel that you need a more tangible reason to whale on people--for example, "Hey! They're ganging up on that guy!") So pretty please try to keep the blasphemy to a minimum?
emo samurai
May 9 2006, 02:22 PM
My Sprawl will have a mish-mash of religions; apocalypse cults, Wicca sects, street churches that do good, shamans with groupies, and crazy people.
And I won't even have Christianity in my campaign, unless there's a crazy priest-mage who summons a fucking angel of death. Then I'd have it.
FanGirl
May 9 2006, 02:25 PM
Okay, fair enough.
emo samurai
May 9 2006, 02:26 PM
Oh, and prominent Humanis members with random prices on their heads. You can kill those.
I mean, even if you were the happy suburban type of Humanis member, if you're banding together with other people because you're part of the master race, you're a douchebag. A douchebag with two cars, 2.2 kids, and a Golden Retriever, but still a douchebag. So kill all the members you want; I'm sure that even if he takes his kids to the park, he still wants to rip the ears off of elves.
SL James
May 9 2006, 02:59 PM
QUOTE (nezumi) |
So we can expect something like a Renraku 'version' of Catholicism, that perhaps is not officially recognized by the Vatican, but does hire ex-Catholic ministers and keeps the same traditions, so most people don't really mind so much. |
So Renraku is, in effect, Red China?
Does that mean there would be an underground RCC backed by the Vatican? And given their existence, would the Templars and New Jesuits be waging a war against Renraku in their own arcs to protect and liberate "real" Catholics?
Daddy's Little Ninja
May 9 2006, 03:44 PM
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
I'd think that religion in general would lose a lot of credibility because of how magic can conform to any number of religious traditions based on the beliefs of the caster. Right away that is suggesting to me that magic is powered by the subconscious mind rather than actual dieties.
Eh, then again, I guess a lot of people will always have the psychological need to believe in a religion. I think religion would always be there but that there would be even more skeptics than there are today. |
Only with people who think their way is the ONLY way. I am shinto, my best friend is a Wiccan. We have no problems.
emo samurai
May 9 2006, 03:56 PM
Which is probably why those two religions are gaining tons of support in Shadowrun. The ones that gain power in SR are either those that thrive on diversity, or those that thrive on oppression.
hyzmarca
May 9 2006, 04:00 PM
QUOTE (emo samurai @ May 9 2006, 09:26 AM) |
Oh, and prominent Humanis members with random prices on their heads. You can kill those.
I mean, even if you were the happy suburban type of Humanis member, if you're banding together with other people because you're part of the master race, you're a douchebag. A douchebag with two cars, 2.2 kids, and a Golden Retriever, but still a douchebag. So kill all the members you want; I'm sure that even if he takes his kids to the park, he still wants to rip the ears off of elves. |
Not at all. He's only concerned about the wellfare of his chldren. By the time his children are old enough to enter the workforce there will be 50 year-old elves with 30 years of experience doing the jobs that they would get otherwise and being paid three of four times as much for it because of their experience. While a 50-year-old human would be nearing retirement and a 50-year-old ork or troll would already be dead a 50-year-old elf is still practically a teenager physically.
---------------
As for SR Religion:
Catholic priests - called nuns - revere the saints. Nuns are traditionally, but not always, female.
-Blatently and shamelessly stolen from
Ed Simons
Daddy's Little Ninja
May 9 2006, 04:08 PM
QUOTE (emo samurai) |
Which is probably why those two religions are gaining tons of support in Shadowrun. The ones that gain power in SR are either those that thrive on diversity, or those that thrive on oppression. |
I meant in RL, but yeah. It makes sense.
stevebugge
May 9 2006, 04:22 PM
QUOTE (SL James) |
QUOTE (nezumi @ May 9 2006, 07:53 AM) | So we can expect something like a Renraku 'version' of Catholicism, that perhaps is not officially recognized by the Vatican, but does hire ex-Catholic ministers and keeps the same traditions, so most people don't really mind so much. |
So Renraku is, in effect, Red China?
Does that mean there would be an underground RCC backed by the Vatican? And given their existence, would the Templars and New Jesuits be waging a war against Renraku in their own arcs to protect and liberate "real" Catholics?
|
That could be a fun sub-plot for a game, and an interesting way to portray Renraku. I might use this.
emo samurai
May 9 2006, 05:01 PM
Or you could smuggle a bunch of them out of Aztlan. Aztlan sucks.
Kremlin KOA
May 9 2006, 05:25 PM
Um Humanis is endorsed and Protected By the UCAS constitution
many metasaren't
emo samurai
May 9 2006, 05:26 PM
That doesn't matter to runners who are well-paid or pissed off enough.
Kremlin KOA
May 9 2006, 05:32 PM
you miss my point
if Lone Star catch a Humanis member Murdering a Sinless meta, he gets off with a fine for littering
If Lone star catch a Sinless meta murdering a Humanis member.. the penalty is death (less paperwork)
emo samurai
May 9 2006, 05:34 PM
Yeah, Humanis is a punching bag in my campaign. How does everyone else treat it?
Kremlin KOA
May 9 2006, 05:40 PM
The way it is written up
Runers may hit them often but don;t get caught doing so, they have powerful friends in government.
Lone Star has like 30%+ of its officers as card Carrying Humanis members (which is why orks almost never make detective)
nezumi
May 9 2006, 05:44 PM
And keep in mind, as has been pointed out, many (in fact, I daresay most) people of the humanis mindset don't feel violence towards metas. In fact they would very much like to live in peace with metas, but let the metas have their country and humans have their own. The elves seem to understand that for the most part, since they stole California, but some just want to take jobs us normal people really can't hope to compete with.
So no, most humanis members won't go to the park and think of pulling ears off. They'll just feel envious when they watch that elven kid get picked up in a beamer they can't hope to afford, and realize that same kid is getting breaks at the expense of everyone else, including good, hard working human kids.
emo samurai
May 9 2006, 05:45 PM
But they still have the Ku Klux Klan masks, too, right?
And are elves favored in employment or something? That doesn't seem logical...
Kremlin KOA
May 9 2006, 05:49 PM
Think about it on the elves thing
a 59 year old elf (the oldest NON IE non sin topike baby)2070has the body of a 20 year old and 31 years experience in work, if he followed a single career he could be well on his way to the top, with no sign of slowing down any tme soon
emo samurai
May 9 2006, 05:55 PM
He'd outlive the CEO and live to see the company grow giganticer than it already is.
SL James
May 9 2006, 07:49 PM
QUOTE (emo samurai) |
Yeah, Humanis is a punching bag in my campaign. How does everyone else treat it? |
Like pretty much everything else in SR - the opposite of what most people in the books, think.
nezumi
May 9 2006, 09:15 PM
QUOTE (emo samurai) |
He'd outlive the CEO and live to see the company grow giganticer than it already is. |
He's more likely to BECOME the CEO, and even if he has n o aspirations for greatness, his medical costs are far, far lower, plus he's more charismatic so he's more likely to get little bennies.
The only question is, will a job pay for an elf's pension after the standard amount of time (which means a company is paying far, far more for an elf than for a human, and sufficient elves may drive the company bankrupt), or do they require the elf to work indefinitely before getting that pension, which means the elf is almost guaranteed to eventually make his way to the top echelons in a large corp.
Calvin Hobbes
May 9 2006, 10:44 PM
I think it's funny that you assume pensions still exist in Shadowrun.
Glyph
May 10 2006, 03:00 AM
I think pensions will probably be completely gone in favor of 401k's, or the equivalent. But yeah, elves have a big potential advantage, in that their extended lifespan gives them far more productive working years. I say potential, because that same extended lifespan might also affect that elf's motivation to slave away for 20-30 years and build up for retirement. If they aren't going to grow old for another two centuries, they might just live a more bohemian lifestyle and only do work if it interests them. After all, they have decades before they need to start worrying about their future.
As for humanis, they are punching bags according to their stats in the main book. But you could do like SLJames suggested in another thread, and base some of them off of the nastier members of groups like the Aryan Nations. You could also look at so-called militias and other domestic terrorists for inspiration. I mean, if they are going to be the bad guys, you need to make some of them tough.
emo samurai
May 10 2006, 03:04 AM
By punching bags I meant you could kill them without conscience. Duh.
I think I'll do that. Killing people without conscience, like setting them on fire, is awesome.
FanGirl
May 10 2006, 03:18 AM
QUOTE (emo samurai) |
Killing people without conscience, like setting them on fire, is awesome. |
No it's not!
QUOTE (emo samurai) |
And I won't even have Christianity in my campaign, unless there's a crazy priest-mage who summons a fucking angel of death. Then I'd have it. |
Perhaps a Sylvestrine who has a severe psychotic episode and becomes convinced that he has to destroy the unclean in order to bring about the Second Coming? Make sure that you read up about psychosis before you do this one!
The ubbergeek
May 10 2006, 04:53 AM
QUOTE (emo samurai) |
And I won't even have Christianity in my campaign, unless there's a crazy priest-mage who summons a fucking angel of death. Then I'd have it. |
You know, Christianity is not there to disapear in Shadowrun. It just evolved, like other believes. This a bit hard and ridiculous to wave Christianity off (unless the game is in a non-christian tradition country(ies)). Kind of suspension of disbelief (AH!).
"What? No baptists in CAS? No catholics in Italia?'
The mode is national churches, more Protestant denominations and syncretism.
emo samurai
May 10 2006, 04:55 AM
Then a demonologist will summon a demon and the demon will fight with the angel and the angel will win but it'll be by going "Let's merge" and the demon going "okay" and then the demon/angel will get really super pissed and kill everybody.
The ubbergeek
May 10 2006, 04:58 AM
Hum....
emo samurai
May 10 2006, 05:15 AM
You're new here, aren't you? *holds out hand* I'm emo samurai, resident psychopath.
SL James
May 10 2006, 07:46 AM
QUOTE (Glyph) |
As for humanis, they are punching bags according to their stats in the main book. But you could do like SLJames suggested in another thread, and base some of them off of the nastier members of groups like the Aryan Nations. You could also look at so-called militias and other domestic terrorists for inspiration. I mean, if they are going to be the bad guys, you need to make some of them tough. |
Or as the good guys... Whichever.
Laser
May 10 2006, 10:04 AM
QUOTE (The ubbergeek @ May 9 2006, 11:53 PM) |
QUOTE (emo samurai @ May 9 2006, 09:22 AM) | And I won't even have Christianity in my campaign, unless there's a crazy priest-mage who summons a fucking angel of death. Then I'd have it. |
You know, Christianity is not there to disapear in Shadowrun. It just evolved, like other believes. This a bit hard and ridiculous to wave Christianity off (unless the game is in a non-christian tradition country(ies)). Kind of suspension of disbelief (AH!).
|
Not being in the campaign doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't exist, it just means that it doesn't play a role. That's pretty much true of religion in general, actually -- unless a character's religion plays a big part in their actions, behaviors, and dialogue, it's not going to come up. This is true of PCs as well as NPCs.
That being said, a street preacher a la Johnny Mnemonic would be cool. It's Jesus time!
nezumi
May 10 2006, 02:37 PM
QUOTE (Glyph) |
I think pensions will probably be completely gone in favor of 401k's, or the equivalent. |
You're right, my fault. But that still means that a smart elf can acquire two or three retirement funds and just live off the system for the rest of time without ever having to work.
If *I* were an elf, I'd work my tail off for 20 years, retire for 10, work for 20, then just do whatever my pointy eared heart desired. But regardless, unlike a human, I don't believe in only death and taxes. After all, death is half a millenium away and taxes I can avoid by carefully investing my money in funds that come out of post-tax income (not tax deferred, I forget what the term is).
How about that, breeder? Now I'm fifty years old but I look twenty, I'm making $40k a year doing absolutely nothing, I have the free time to pursue all the hobbies I ever wanted, I can marry a dozen human women before I die and give them elfy kids, I can apply for any job in my field I want and am automatically more likely to get it than you are, I reek of sexual appeal and I'm all around just better than you are. Boy, I hope you have such a pleasant outlook when you're fifty.
Yeah, I'd be pretty mad too. If I lived in that situation, I would feel very cheated by elves and dwarves. As an employer, I might feel competition from my elf underlings, since they have a reputation for double dealing, for sneakiness and an undying desire for power and money (and I can name plenty of examples of rich and powerful elves to back it up). Trolls and orks I could live with since they're even worse off than me, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't look down on them. I can imagine having the same style marches about illegal immigrants and all the normal, SINned humans have images of these poor, stupid, SINless orks making a fuss because it's illegal to work illegally.
Don't think I'd be humanis, but I can certainly understand why so many people would be racist. Remember emo, as a GM, you are expected to play out and sympathise with EVERY NPC. You need to see the world from their viewpoints and understand why they do the things they do, or you're just putting two dimensional cardboard cut-outs in your world.
emo samurai
May 10 2006, 02:54 PM
And that's why we kill them.
I think I did that alright with my mantis shaman and spirit, even if he was really, really, creepy. I think I'll do that with EVERY villain, even the ones we assassinate!
Daddy's Little Ninja
May 10 2006, 02:55 PM
In 2006 pensions are gone in favor of 401k's and SEP IRA's. BUT with extraterritoriality in 2065 they might come back as a way to keep employees. 40 years with Renraku and you get a beach front condo in the corp retirnement village in North Carolina. Jump ship to go tothat other corp and you lose that.
Glyph
May 11 2006, 03:14 AM
Good point. But they could probably do the same thing with a 401K with the company - with extraterritoriality, leaving the company could mean losing your retirement fund, your condo, your company car... everything.
And I don't know about Humanis as "good guys", but they can be run with the same shades of grey as everyone else.
Like, maybe one of them could be a mercenary who kills orks at every opportunity, because his son got tortured and murdered by the Sons of Sauron for being a "breeder". And maybe they will help the Sons of Sauron against this "evil racist", only at the end, the gang leader gloats to the guy about what he did to his son, and the players realize that they've been helping someone who's an even worse racist.
Maybe one of them could be a really messed-up elven physad with the human-looking Edge. His parents were Humanis types who took him to the surgeon to get him "cured" when he developed those demon ears. He's not an elf, damnit... he's a human! They cured him! And he's not awakened... magic is evil! He's no adept, he's just, just... naturally athletic! Yeah!
maikeru
May 11 2006, 03:25 AM
Kinda on topic but off at the same time. I think playing a shintoist shaman would be kinda cool. Might have to roll on up.
Glyph
May 11 2006, 03:30 AM
Yeah. On the other hand, trying to play a wiccan combat mage could kind of suck.
GM: "Okay, your manabolt does 6S damage. Now resist 6S damage, 6S damage, and 6S damage."
Player: "You know, I really
hate the 'three-fold rule'."
maikeru
May 11 2006, 03:35 AM
Wounded Ronin
May 11 2006, 04:11 AM
QUOTE (Laser) |
That being said, a street preacher a la Johnny Mnemonic would be cool. It's Jesus time! |
Clear out of the way, marine...god's will must be done...!
-The Preacher from Damage Incorporated
thefather
May 11 2006, 05:23 AM
kinda new here, first post but ive been surfin the sight for some time. acctualy my first shadorun charicter was an excimunicated bishop, some wierd cult killed his whole congrogation, got a little pissed to say the least so he had some one built him two of the huge revolvers like hellboy had, called them the Saint and the Martyer. holy rounds all that good stuff ended up going on some crazy crusade and geting imolated by his own sword good stuff, but our Gm played it perfectly had normal stuff for every one and every now and then throw in something evil/ supernaturl/ demonic for me to beat on it was preaty cool.......other wise greetings all
WyldKarde
May 11 2006, 06:23 AM
I once ran a defrocked priest myself, although in this case it was more his taste for earthly pleasures, such as simsense porno involving nuns. He did have his moments though...
"Now, this here gun's loaded with APDS ammo. That's frightfully expensive and sure I'd hate to see it wasted on a miserable little sinner such as yourself, so tell me what I want to know and I won't SMITE YOU DOWN WITH THE THUNDEROUS WRATH OF OUR LORD!"
That was worth -1TN to an intimidation roll.
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