Full Version: How sympathetic are you to your NPC's?
he gets wasted by IC. oh no i gave it away!
Then gets turned into a force bajillion blood spirit and sent to kill Dunkelzahn, but Dunkelzahn turns out to be a cyberzombie so he's okay.
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| He doesn't need to be sympathetic in order to be something more than a card of stats to the players; he can be a total bastard in a very painstakingly detailed way. And SL, you are SO gritty and street level. Dur.  |
But painstakingly detailed total bastards are completely sympathetic. People like total bastards. People root for total total bastards.
Deep inside of each and every one of us there is a crazed misanthropic cynic just trying to get out. This is why anti-hereos are so popular. We like to see cheaters win because only idiots play fair. This is why we lay Shadowrun. So we can be the sympathetic jerk anti-hereos because they are so much cooler than the Lawfull Good Paladin's we'd be stuck with in TOG.
The only line between a selfish jerk villian and a lovable but gruff anti-hero is the depth to which we understand his motivations and how he is presented in the story.
Indeed. The sheer amount of celebration and.or admiration for antisocial behavior is nothing short of amazing in this country.
Not quite.
He's a loveable but gruff antihero if he's on the PCs' side.
He's a selfish jerk villain when he's shooting at them.
NPCs who aren't faceless goons should be created with empathy, but that's just so they are internally and logically consistent. Under most circumstances, the players are not going to care about the motivations of an NPC who falls under the "enemy" category. They just want to blow him/her away.
He's a loveable but gruff antihero if he's on the PCs' side.
He's a selfish jerk villain when he's shooting at them.
NPCs who aren't faceless goons should be created with empathy, but that's just so they are internally and logically consistent. Under most circumstances, the players are not going to care about the motivations of an NPC who falls under the "enemy" category. They just want to blow him/her away.
The CK in my game is completely incompetent and evil; he gets drunk and tries to rape women and relies on the competence of his subordinates and corporate father in order to maintain his status.
And as for the glorification of antisocial behavior, it's a much smaller and less deadly trap than the glorification of conformity. At least the glorification of antisocial behavior has a smaller chance of promoting abject uniformity of act and thought.
And as for the glorification of antisocial behavior, it's a much smaller and less deadly trap than the glorification of conformity. At least the glorification of antisocial behavior has a smaller chance of promoting abject uniformity of act and thought.
Poor kid; they totally made a waste of his life. The only solution is psychotropic beetles.
I don't think his life being a waste is the problem.
It's certainly his problem, isn't it? You sure are heartless sometimes 
What's the poor boy's name? I'll be a little counseling and some time to rethink his life could really straighten him out.
What's the poor boy's name? I'll be a little counseling and some time to rethink his life could really straighten him out.
Yeah, it seriously sounds like he's an undiagnosed sociopath with no conformable prospects in his life. Even his "friends" are just employees paid to babysit him.
Takeshi Tanegawa, I made it up on the spot. And they don't have time to let him think out his life.
The only way this poor kid has passed the compulsory psychological exams is because his father or such arranged it to save face. It's pretty depressing that someone in this day and age (2070) is forced to suffer from a treatable mental illness.
Treatable?
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Treatable? |
Personailty Fix
Mental illness? You mean evil?
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| Mental illness? You mean evil? |
No, I mean sociopathic.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| The only way this poor kid has passed the compulsory psychological exams is because his father or such arranged it to save face. It's pretty depressing that someone in this day and age (2070) is forced to suffer from a treatable mental illness. |
i dunno. i don't see this guy's activities as being dishonorable. behavior like this is probably expected in most Japanacorps. the guys who fail the psych exams are the guys who are likely to bring all their dirty laundry out into the open, rather than taking care of it in such a way that it doesn't reflect badly on the company. he's displaying skills that are very valuable in positions that require working with shadowrunners. if this guy survives, i can see him getting a position as a professional johnson. i mean, he's not a sociopath, according to his societal norms. we're talking seriously old-sk00l samurai lines of thought, here, where it's okay for a guy to chop up a village--they're below his class, so they don't really count as people (simplification, i know, but adding in all the complexities won't undermine my point).
True, true. But I got the impression that he was failing the corporate skills test, as well.
depends on whether or not the PCs whack him, or if he whacks them!
In Shiawase, it's very "family, family, family, blah blah blah." I'm sure, at least this early in his career, having a feather in his cap is more important than making his first independent million.
| QUOTE (mfb @ May 16 2006, 03:37 PM) |
| depends on whether or not the PCs whack him, or if he whacks them! |
So true.I'm thinking they should set him up as selling information to Geatronics. Of course, if they do it right, then they might as well geek the kid.
As an aside, I really can't condone using 'evil' as an official personality trait. Mentally disturbed, non-altruistic, selfish, destructive, confused, slovenly, anti-social, perhaps. But not 'evil', not in a world of nothing but shades of grey.
Alright, so the guy is incompetent. Why? Is he simply physically incapable? Does he have an undiagnosed learning disorder? Is he an artist forced to be an accountant due to the expectations of his father? Regardless, it occurs to me that his own incompetence (or more accurately, his self-percieved incompetence) is the root of his problem. He is where he is because he has no power to change his situation (or so he thinks), but was put there by the expectations of his father and his corporation. He's smart enough to get his job done by delegating tasks to those under him and surrounding himself by competent underlings, but he simply has no talent for it himself. Is that 'evil'? I shouldn't think so. And in fact, he shows signs of significant loyalty to his father and corporation, at least to begin with, despite the fact that it is completely undeserved.
His only evil character flaw you've indicated so far is he beats prostitutes (and if the prostitutes are hired knowing they're there to be used in any fashion of the word, which is a real possibility, even that loses it's edge.) But that behavior is simply a symptom of feeling he lacks power in other aspects of his life. He likely also compulsively masturbated as a child for similar reasons, and now has significant problems with self-confidence. And why shouldn't he? His sex life is the only area he was given some freedom (and even there, what are the odds he got to marry or even date his first love? Do you think he can expect to create a stable family, or will his focus always have to be on the job first?)
However, had he been allowed to choose his own profession and develop at his own pace, he could have been a great artist, perhaps the best of the modern world, or a technologist with incredible creativity, or simply a happy father of three who enjoys gardening and model trains. His problem is now simply that he has not yet taken responsibility for his own psychological make-up, and has allowed his perception of the world to be created by his overbearing father and constricting environment.
Evil? No more so than the man that judges him ;P
Alright, so the guy is incompetent. Why? Is he simply physically incapable? Does he have an undiagnosed learning disorder? Is he an artist forced to be an accountant due to the expectations of his father? Regardless, it occurs to me that his own incompetence (or more accurately, his self-percieved incompetence) is the root of his problem. He is where he is because he has no power to change his situation (or so he thinks), but was put there by the expectations of his father and his corporation. He's smart enough to get his job done by delegating tasks to those under him and surrounding himself by competent underlings, but he simply has no talent for it himself. Is that 'evil'? I shouldn't think so. And in fact, he shows signs of significant loyalty to his father and corporation, at least to begin with, despite the fact that it is completely undeserved.
His only evil character flaw you've indicated so far is he beats prostitutes (and if the prostitutes are hired knowing they're there to be used in any fashion of the word, which is a real possibility, even that loses it's edge.) But that behavior is simply a symptom of feeling he lacks power in other aspects of his life. He likely also compulsively masturbated as a child for similar reasons, and now has significant problems with self-confidence. And why shouldn't he? His sex life is the only area he was given some freedom (and even there, what are the odds he got to marry or even date his first love? Do you think he can expect to create a stable family, or will his focus always have to be on the job first?)
However, had he been allowed to choose his own profession and develop at his own pace, he could have been a great artist, perhaps the best of the modern world, or a technologist with incredible creativity, or simply a happy father of three who enjoys gardening and model trains. His problem is now simply that he has not yet taken responsibility for his own psychological make-up, and has allowed his perception of the world to be created by his overbearing father and constricting environment.
Evil? No more so than the man that judges him ;P
Unless he's an ork, in which case he's totally evil.
Evil can work as a personality trait in the right setting. Take, for example, Dr. Evil.
Of course, Dr. Evil was a very sympathetic character so being evil doesn't make it impossible for viewers to identify with the character.
Of course, Dr. Evil was a very sympathetic character so being evil doesn't make it impossible for viewers to identify with the character.
I guess the most important thing is to have the NPC have a reasonable reason for being evil instead of the asinine "evil for evil's sake" that is so popular in action movies.
And by reasonable reason I don't mean the highly annoying anime cliches where villians have melodramatic tortured childhoods. Really. Those are just annoying.
And by reasonable reason I don't mean the highly annoying anime cliches where villians have melodramatic tortured childhoods. Really. Those are just annoying.
Dude, what's the compulsive masturbation supposed to mean? Isn't it supposed to relieve depression?
| QUOTE (emo samurai @ May 16 2006, 03:26 PM) |
| Mental illness? You mean evil? |
Emo mentioned that he mixes anti-depressants with alcohol, which suggests that he's got some emotional problems that lead him to self-medicate. If these anti-depressants were prescribed for him, that could indicate that he is clinically depressed. Of course, I'm not ruling out the possibility that his psychiatrist was bribed to come up with a phony diagnosis to justify a phony prescription, but even that would make CK a somewhat sympathetic figure to my mind, since he's getting inadequate mental health treatment.
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| Dude, what's the compulsive masturbation supposed to mean? Isn't it supposed to relieve depression? |
Depends on whether or not you have a necrotizing foreskin incident.
That... that sounds bad... How does that happen, anyway?
Well, there could be a brown recluse hiding in your underwear when you try to put it on in the morning 
More realistically that can happen in cases of untreated veneral disease.
Contracted from your hand?
Well, if you don't wash your hand after handling raw or undercooked meat, including seafood, shaking hands with someone, or visiting someone in a hospital it is quite possible. You get a little overenthuastic and slightly tear the foreskin and the bacteria from your hand enters the wround becasue you don't disinfect it properly.
This guy doesn't sound sociopathic so much as suffering from a lack of inhibitions, which is sometimes a symptom of schizophrenia, or an organic brain disorder. It could simply be from an injury or a mild stroke, and it could go away in time, on its own or with medication. So you may want to consider those possiblities.
Sociopaths tend to be cunning, manipulative and charismatic. This guy sounds more awkward and clumsy. FAS?
But it's a whole 'nuther ball of wax if you want to explore possible mental illnesses to justify your NPC's behaviour. IMHO, it's kind of outside the scope of the game. Sure, "evil" is a subjective term, so we're not all gonna define it the same. Use it if it suits you and your players, and just be prepared to elaborate on it if the PC's start looking into his background. If this is the way you want to go, it'd be easy to lift some stuff from any decent crime novel. Those authors love flashbacks into the villain's past.
I guess my point is that it's kind of interesting to ruminate, but does it do much for your game? If you ask me, it does, but only in small quantities.
Sociopaths tend to be cunning, manipulative and charismatic. This guy sounds more awkward and clumsy. FAS?
But it's a whole 'nuther ball of wax if you want to explore possible mental illnesses to justify your NPC's behaviour. IMHO, it's kind of outside the scope of the game. Sure, "evil" is a subjective term, so we're not all gonna define it the same. Use it if it suits you and your players, and just be prepared to elaborate on it if the PC's start looking into his background. If this is the way you want to go, it'd be easy to lift some stuff from any decent crime novel. Those authors love flashbacks into the villain's past.
I guess my point is that it's kind of interesting to ruminate, but does it do much for your game? If you ask me, it does, but only in small quantities.
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| Dude, what's the compulsive masturbation supposed to mean? Isn't it supposed to relieve depression? |
I brought that up because of my pretend diagnosis. Basically I came up with the most likely cause I could think of for his behavior (barring a serious medical problem like sociopathy, etc.) He's doing a job he's no good at, his father has high expectations that he'll do said job well, and he shows aggressive behavior towards 'sexual objects'. My first diagnosis would be he doesn't feel he has control over his life; he feels his father and the company are (and perhaps should) make all decisions for him, and he has no free will in his own life.
A common result is that children in this situation act out in places where they DO have freedom. The most common area is sexual or quasi-sexual. Chronic masturbation is not an uncommon symptom because dad can't tell him to stop (hopefully dad isn't in the room at the time, right?) So that's one area the child feels he is free to explore himself and excercise his own free will, and as a consequence, it's one he engages in regularly. It's simply a way to release pressure from another part of his repressed psyche.
I would wager his homelife with his wife would be bad. He'd like be domineering, aggressive, likely violent at times, and closed to disagreement or questioning. Again, he feels he has no control in his professional life, so he has to compensate by overcontrolling his personal life.
The easiest solution is to break him out of his restrictive professional life and give him other creative outlets such as painting.
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