Using forgery – a few questions.

It seems that forgery is a somewhat open ended skill and a bit confusing to use. For example, Image Doctoring.

Image doctoring is used for editing an image, painting, photo etc – but what about digital photos?

If you have a hacker who gets into a system and wants to hack the security cameras stored files and remove all the runners visible in the memory of the cameras. Would he do the following…

A: Hacking+Edit to modify the images/film to remove all traces
B: Hacking+Edit=Complementary dice for a Forgery+Agility test to create the false image.
C: Forgery+Agility=Complementary Dice for hacking+Edit to create the false image.
D: Forgery+Agility to modify the image.

I’m leaning towards C since the character can use his knowledge of forgery to improve the doctoring of the image.

Creating a false ID card
Ok, I want to fake an ID card to gain access to a facility and I need to insert information into several systems in order to gain access.

A: Hacking+Edit to insert fake information inside the personel files (inserting security clearance, references to the hardcopy ID, swipe card information.)
B: Computer+Edit test to edit possible images needed on the card.
C: Forgery test adding successes from the hacking test in “A” and “B”
D: The successes equals the threshold for anyone to see if the id is false.

Now, A and B would give the forger some extra dice but I do find it logical since all the tests work together to create the fake ID card instead of just one Forgery+Agility test when computer systems and security plays an important role when it comes to ID’s.

Any other thoughts?

I think forgery is only usefull for forging "hardcopy" data, like photos and hardcopy passports (like we have today). That forgery is connected to agility is strong evidence for that opinion.

I would not allow to roll forgery for anything related to digital IDs, images, whatever, at all.

As a result: Forgery in SR4 = useless (everything is digital anyways) and I would answer A to both of your questions.

For most computer tests our group uses Computer + Logic with hits limited by program rating.

Also, p225 tells us:

The using forgery section (SR4 p 124) makes it quite clear.

Making a fake image or object involves forgery.

Make a test as appropriate for the medium in use (computing + edit for image files, painting + intuition for a work of art). Make a forgery check. The hits on the forgery check are limited by the hits on the check for the medium.

It dose say that you cant make a fake ID with a simple forgery check. You could however duplicate a certified credstick. The problem being that it will only work until the original has been used again.

I would suggest that for editing cameras you normally wouldn’t bother to make a forgery, you would just play back old footage. I would also suggest that you don’t need forgery to forge plane text files, such as computer logs.

The thing that surprises me most is that agility has anything to do with making fake computer images.

Edward

1.) Forgery uses agility.
2.) Tempering with an image using a PC does not need agility at all.

-> Tempering with a digital image does not need forgery. Computer + Edit does the job.

Consistency before mindless SR4 examples.

I say again: Forgery as it is described in SR4 rules is the "old school" forgery of forging paper passports and diplomas and such. It is not digital forgery. This is already covered by computer skills.

Double post

I am strictly against using two skills for one action. SR4 was supposed to be streamlined.
Everything takes just one skill roll, why should forgery take two? No reason for that.

Were it resolving a perception test or figuring out if I'd just gotten shot, I might want the system to streamline down to 1 die roll, but since we're talking about something that happens while the game is not in high gear, I really don't see it making a huge impact on gameplay to have two rolls involved. Hell, combat involves three sets of dice... the attack, the defend, and the damage resistance.

It does take agility to photoshop an image currently. Sure, in SR you've got the matrix and you're not actually using your hands, but I still think it takes some hand-eye coordination to line everything up right and such. I can see why forgery is an agility skill, even when doing digital forgeries.

I just read the text about forgery again. Every example given is about hard copy forgery and not about digital forgery. Only in the rules text they try to also include one example of digital forgery (the one about the image), so I am pretty sure, forgery is only for hardcopy stuff.

About the 2 dice rolls: It is not about time, it is about consistency. Either you make all skill tests with two dice rolls or none. If you make some with two dice rolls and others not, then the outcome is not comparable anymore. Just like the SR3 skilltest with pool and without pool. You do not want that. Consistency makes or brakes a ruleset.

Forgery is used for hardcopies, Hacking for softcopies... that's it.

Dewar. It makes sense that forgery is agility linked, even for digital images right up until the point when the character goes full VR, having shaky hands isn’t going to be a problem then.

Serbitar. You think that because there is no fluff on forgery and electronic media, and only one rule example that rule example is not true.

In your game if you want but defiantly not buy the RAW. That rule reference is after all written.

Edward

Good point, so let me phrase it that way:

By RAW forgery is used to doctor digital images, because of an explicitly given example, although the spirit of the rest of the example as well as the linked attribute says, that forgery is only used for hardcopy doctoring, not digital.

I recommend to use forgery for hardcopy and computer for digital doctoring, for consistency and common sense reasons.

Just making sure... which example states that forging digital images uses Forgery?

p. 218 makes it pretty clear that (indeed) Computer is used.

Without using double skilling how do you get around the fact that forgery can be used on so many varied things. Sculpture, painting, signatures. Forging anything that would require a skill to make an original should require that skill.

Edward

Edit+Forgery maybe?

Or edit + whichever is lower of forgery or computer?

Most of the time you cnan easily find something to replace the original with. Want rid of those fingerprint records? Grab a set from a sinless slot in nowhere town and upload them.

The only three-variate system we have in Shadowrun is using Atribute+SKill with something else as limiter. So using computer+edit with forgery as limiter would be consistent.

But anyways, there are lots of skill test that would, if youw anted to do it realistically involve a lot of skills, butfor preactical reasons you just use the main skill.