Hello all, this is my first post here after lurking for a while. I've just gotten back into SR through 4th edition and am enjoying it mightily.
I am playing a Mage in a game (Ludwig the Somewhat Unstable) and have a couple of questions I wanted to clarify.
I have seen mention of the fact that Grounding is no longer available with spell-use although I cannot find ahywhere this is spelt out clearly. It simply doesn't seem to be mentioned as an option in the rules. So from my understanding, when a spell foci is used, say a sustaining foci, it has a dual nature. No grounding means that an astral mage cannot slam a RT mage with a spell. However, they could attack the foci and cause it to fail, either through dispelling (Counterspell) or a mana spell. Is this right?
What happens to cyberware when you use the Shapechange spell? It's not spelt out and it doesn't seem right that the cyberware wouldn't convert in some form. I was going to use the essence cost as a modifier, similar to healing, for characters who are cybered and are going to be subjected to Shapechange. This should take successful hits off any successful spellcast, making them a weaker animal than otherwise. Thoughts?
Also, is it viable to say have a sustaining foci on an occy strap (elastic strap) so when a mage shapechanges they can keep it attached that way and use it to sustain the spell?
Cheers
Full Version: First Post
Grounding is forbidden by the rule that a magician must occupy the same plane as his target, he must perceive the target on that plane, and only mana spells can be cast on the astral.
| QUOTE |
| However, they could attack the foci and cause it to fail, either through dispelling (Counterspell) or a mana spell. Is this right? |
Yes, and also with Astral Combat. Dispelling targets just the spell, IIRC.
| QUOTE |
| What happens to cyberware when you use the Shapechange spell? |
In earlier editions it shifted with the target, but became nonfunctional.
| QUOTE |
| Also, is it viable to say have a sustaining foci on an occy strap (elastic strap) so when a mage shapechanges they can keep it attached that way and use it to sustain the spell? |
Yes. Also with equipment. Note that acid damage could be bad here. Think of a shapchanged rat in a drain pipe. That's why I go with piercings.
With regards to "grounding" i'm considering allowing an astral form to cast a physical spells at a duel natured target or active focus. After all it seems that this should work.
Though I seem to remember a rule forbidding the use of physical spells while projecting.
Though I seem to remember a rule forbidding the use of physical spells while projecting.
| QUOTE (NightHaunter) |
| With regards to "grounding" i'm considering allowing an astral form to cast a physical spells at a duel natured target or active focus. After all it seems that this should work. Though I seem to remember a rule forbidding the use of physical spells while projecting. |
Right. There are no physical spells in astral space because there's no physical anything in astral space. No objects, no physics. Just thought and emotion.
| QUOTE (Aaron) | ||
Right. There are no physical spells in astral space because there's no physical anything in astral space. No objects, no physics. Just thought and emotion. |
However with a duel target could you not cast anyway. The effects would only happen on the Physical so you're not affecting the astral but you also have a target in the required zone?
| QUOTE (NightHaunter) |
| However with a duel target could you not cast anyway. The effects would only happen on the Physical so you're not affecting the astral but you also have a target in the required zone? |
I'm not quite parsing what you're saying, but I'll try this and see if it helps.
There are two rules in play here.
- The caster and the target must both be on the same plane.
- An astral caster may not cast physical spells.
This would suggest that an astral caster (wholly on the astral plane) may cast a spell at a dual-natured target (who exists simultaneously on the astral and physical) if that spell is a mana spell (since the caster cannot cast physical spells).
By the same token, an astral form that is manifesting on the physical plane can be targeted by a physical caster with a mana spell.
| QUOTE (Aaron @ May 24 2006, 04:55 PM) | ||
I'm not quite parsing what you're saying, but I'll try this and see if it helps. There are two rules in play here.
This would suggest that an astral caster (wholly on the astral plane) may cast a spell at a dual-natured target (who exists simultaneously on the astral and physical) if that spell is a mana spell (since the caster cannot cast physical spells). By the same token, an astral form that is manifesting on the physical plane can be targeted by a physical caster with a mana spell. |
Yeah thats what I thought the rules said.
But how about a "grounding" rule that allows you to cast physical spells at duel natured targets from the astral plane?
Of couse it's house rule only.
Edit: Sorry Shotgun, I seem to have stolen your thred.
| QUOTE (NightHaunter) |
| But how about a "grounding" rule that allows you to cast physical spells at duel natured targets from the astral plane? Of couse it's house rule only. |
For me, the grounding rule is gone, and good riddance. Having a fireball suddenly explode into the team with no warning from astral space is Not Fun.
| QUOTE (Aaron) | ||
For me, the grounding rule is gone, and good riddance. Having a fireball suddenly explode into the team with no warning from astral space is Not Fun. |
Well, not for the PCs. The GM, on the other hand...
Yeah... but for him, it's not fun when the PCs do it to his sec teams. And that happens a lot more often...
| QUOTE (Shrike30) |
| Yeah... but for him, it's not fun when the PCs do it to his sec teams. And that happens a lot more often... |
Eh, my runners just took out a few dozen people in a gang safehouse during a party with nerve gas. At this point, I'm tempted to just let them split the Earth in two and have done with it.
| QUOTE |
| This would suggest that an astral caster (wholly on the astral plane) may cast a spell at a dual-natured target (who exists simultaneously on the astral and physical) if that spell is a mana spell (since the caster cannot cast physical spells). By the same token, an astral form that is manifesting on the physical plane can be targeted by a physical caster with a mana spell. |
These are both correct, but the implication with #1 is that an astral caster can throw a manaball at a dual-natured target, and have it affect people on the physical plane. This is not the case.
I think what people are saying basically is what happens on the astral stays on the astral.
Ok I relent.
But how about Grounding MetaMagic?
With my above restrictions.
But how about Grounding MetaMagic?
With my above restrictions.
How about you just learn Possession? Seriously, the ease of summoning a Spirit of Man to materialize and cast Death from Above is more than close enough to Grounding. Between the two (Possession and spirits) one has a good selection of balanced Astral attacks.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| How about you just learn Possession? Seriously, the ease of summoning a Spirit of Man to materialize and cast Death from Above is more than close enough to Grounding. Between the two (Possession and spirits) one has a good selection of balanced Astral attacks. |
The problem with possesion is it's very much like control manipulation spells.
I you use them the GM will use them back.
But Grounding isn't that way? Just imagine Lone Star cops carrying little dual-natured furries and tossing them around for their astral scouting mage to nuke!
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| little dual-natured furries |
What, like cat-girls? Okay, I'm imagining exploding cat-girl grenades.
Now, to add something useful to this post: I agree Kanada. I always thought grounding was kinda cool, but in the end it's just too un-fun when the opposition uses it. There are enough ways to cause trouble from the astral that are a lot more fun for the players to fight back against.
Runners getting out of control with chemical weapons is one of those things that'll invite a response eventually.
And by response, I don't mean things like three dudes showing up at their door with light pistols. Runners laugh at that kind of thing.
By response, I'm talking about something like they pulled in Hardwired where they launched a shaped charge at one of the character's apartments from a building across the street and destroyed most of it.
They want to play with big kid toys? That means playing with the big kids, eventually...
And by response, I don't mean things like three dudes showing up at their door with light pistols. Runners laugh at that kind of thing.
By response, I'm talking about something like they pulled in Hardwired where they launched a shaped charge at one of the character's apartments from a building across the street and destroyed most of it.
They want to play with big kid toys? That means playing with the big kids, eventually...
| QUOTE (NightHaunter) |
| By the same token, an astral form that is manifesting on the physical plane can be targeted by a physical caster with a mana spell. Edit: Sorry Shotgun, I seem to have stolen your thred. |
No worries about the hijack, i'm learning by lurking.
As an addition, if an astral mage is manifesting on the physical and someone slugs the area with a manaball the manifesting mage is going to be hit, yes? However, if it were a fireball or physical area spell then they wouldn't be affected?
And as manifesting mages can be targetted with mana spells this should mean that the control spells (control thoughts, influence etc) should be able to affect them.
Cheers
| QUOTE (Shotgun @ May 26 2006, 11:40 AM) |
| As an addition, if an astral mage is manifesting on the physical and someone slugs the area with a manaball the manifesting mage is going to be hit, yes? |
Of course not!
A manifesting mage is perceived on the physical plane as an image, but the mage is not on the physical plane. Spells cast on the physical plane do not affect mages on the astral, only spells cast into the astral plane (i.e. from an astrally perceiving mage) do, but those won't affect targets on the physical plane then.
| QUOTE |
| I have seen mention of the fact that Grounding is no longer available with spell-use although I cannot find ahywhere this is spelt out clearly. It simply doesn't seem to be mentioned as an option in the rules. |
That's a pretty good indicator, that it isn't available, I'd say.
Rules from previous editions do not apply unless duplicated in a 4th edition book.
Bye
Thanee
| QUOTE (Shotgun) | ||
No worries about the hijack, i'm learning by lurking. As an addition, if an astral mage is manifesting on the physical and someone slugs the area with a manaball the manifesting mage is going to be hit, yes? However, if it were a fireball or physical area spell then they wouldn't be affected? And as manifesting mages can be targetted with mana spells this should mean that the control spells (control thoughts, influence etc) should be able to affect them. Cheers |
Sorry bud thats wrong.
Im getting my editions in a muddle.
| QUOTE (Aaron) | ||
Right. There are no physical spells in astral space because there's no physical anything in astral space. No objects, no physics. Just thought and emotion. |
Except that there are physical objects on the astral plane in some places. The barrier between the astral plane and the physical plane is not inperminable. Certain metamagics, known only to IEs and GDs at this point, allow one to cross physically into the astral plane. The Dragon Heart's physical body exists on the alstral plane, for example. I'm prety sure that Burnout's does, too. Likewise, Target: Awakened Lands includes mention of what appear to be inanimate physical objects on the Astral Plane. While the Shadowtalk suggests that these are "ghosts" of inanimate objects there is nothing in the accompanying rules text that prevents them from being actual physical objects shifted to the astral plane. In fact, the rules state that they behave like physical objects.
The rules state that you can't effect an astral target with a physical spell because it has no physical presence but nothing should prevent casting a physical spell at a physical target on the astral plane.
[edit]Mis-quoted here. Sorry for the mess.[/edit]
| QUOTE (Geekkake) | ||||
Well, not for the PCs. The GM, on the other hand... |
It's been gone since SR3, those of use who assumed it never left realized that it's never mentioned in SR3 (or SR4) so it doesn't exist past SR2.
I think at times it easier to come into a new version of an RPG with little knowledge of prior versions since you'll take the new version as Law instead of trying to fit SR4 into SR3.
We're all guilty of it, comparing SR3 to SR4 and although it helps fill in the missing bits until more rules become available but it's more of hinderance at times I feel.
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll @ May 26 2006, 06:46 PM) | ||||||
It's been gone since SR3, those of use who assumed it never left realized that it's never mentioned in SR3 (or SR4) so it doesn't exist past SR2. I think at times it easier to come into a new version of an RPG with little knowledge of prior versions since you'll take the new version as Law instead of trying to fit SR4 into SR3. We're all guilty of it, comparing SR3 to SR4 and although it helps fill in the missing bits until more rules become available but it's more of hinderance at times I feel. |
Yeah it's been gone since 3rd ed, should have realised when just being alive no longer stopped your astral travel.
That must have been how grounding worked.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) | ||||
Except that there are physical objects on the astral plane in some places. The barrier between the astral plane and the physical plane is not inperminable. Certain metamagics, known only to IEs and GDs at this point, allow one to cross physically into the astral plane. The Dragon Heart's physical body exists on the alstral plane, for example. I'm prety sure that Burnout's does, too. Likewise, Target: Awakened Lands includes mention of what appear to be inanimate physical objects on the Astral Plane. While the Shadowtalk suggests that these are "ghosts" of inanimate objects there is nothing in the accompanying rules text that prevents them from being actual physical objects shifted to the astral plane. In fact, the rules state that they behave like physical objects. The rules state that you can't effect an astral target with a physical spell because it has no physical presence but nothing should prevent casting a physical spell at a physical target on the astral plane. |
Two people have now pointed out thatthis is wrong but I have to disagree. My rulebook is inaccessable at the moment but I clearly remember it stating that manifesting spirits and mages can be targetted with mana spells, under the astral section of the rules.
And isn't anything related to the Target series of sourcebooks irrelevent to SR4 as it's based on SR3?
Manifesting or Materalized?
| QUOTE |
| nothing should prevent casting a physical spell at a physical target on the astral plane |
Only mana spells can be cast on the astral. It doesn't say that only mana spells can be used to attack astral creatures, it says that only mana spells can be cast. Regardless of what SR3 said or didn't say, SR4 makes astrally present physical objects immune to spells by virtue of being untargetable with the only spells that can be cast astrally.
Page referance? I see nothing under Sorcery or Astral Projection that states that.
I have found the sentnce that says a manifesting magician is vulnerable to mana spell effects on page 184.
I have found the sentnce that says a manifesting magician is vulnerable to mana spell effects on page 184.
| QUOTE (SR4 p.184) |
| Manifesting characters and spirits, however, are vulnerable to mana-based magical effects on the physical plane. |
Note that the sentence in question does not state that a manifesting magician can be targeted by a mana spell from the physical plane. It simple states that the magician is vulnerable to mana spell effects present on the physical plane. The difference is subtle but important.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Page referance? I see nothing under Sorcery or Astral Projection that states that. |
Here's something that might be germane.
| QUOTE (SR4 p. 182) |
| While astrally perceiving, a magician can cast mana spells at astral opponents. Other astral forms can engage an astrally perceiving magician in astral combat (p. 184) or cast mana spells at him as well. |
| QUOTE (SR4 p. 184) |
| There are no known ranged weapons that function in astral space, so unarmed attacks, active weapon foci (see p. 192), and mana spells are the only options for astral combat. |
These seem to strongly imply that a physical spell is not an option in astral space. We'll probably have to wait for Street Magic to be sure.
| QUOTE (NightHaunter) |
| **SNIP** Yeah it's been gone since 3rd ed, should have realised when just being alive no longer stopped your astral travel. That must have been how grounding worked. |
Under SR1 and SR2, casting a spell at an Astral target caused the spell to "ground" to the meatbody then detonate.
This meant with AE spells would fry the whole party gathered around a mage while he was on the Astral miles away. This was not included in SR3 or SR4 and is what I am referring to by "grounding".
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll) | ||
Under SR1 and SR2, casting a spell at an Astral target caused the spell to "ground" to the meatbody then detonate. This meant with AE spells would fry the whole party gathered around a mage while he was on the Astral miles away. This was not included in SR3 or SR4 and is what I am referring to by "grounding". |
I know what grounding is!
But you could also ground through Foci.
Also living matter was solid on the astral, leading to vine covered wall as security.
Your description is hazy, a purly astral form could not be grounded through but an astrally active physical form could be.
My suggestion was that because "life" existed on both planes, that was what made grounding possible.
Thus the removal of "alive" things blocking astral travel in effect also removed "grounding".
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