I'm trying to figure if the elves allow orks on their special forces teams.

I mean yeah I can make it up but I like to run with canon moslty (a lot of my players have source books and know a bit about stuff, and I used to hate being in games where suddenly there was this AAA megacorp coming from nothing.)

I'm also wondering if any one has any references for where you can learn about carromeleg(i.e. is it described at all in any of the sourcebooks, novels and what not)

Maybe some of this gets answered in Shadows of North America but that still hasn't arrived at my friendly neighborhood hobby store. Oh well maybe by christmas. Then I'll have an excuse to get it, I'll just buy it for my Christmas present.


Oh how about Shadows of Europe is that thing out yet. www.shadowrunrpg.com has still not been updated since Septemeber 3rd. Thus I am hoping that it has come out officially.

Carromeleg is described somewhat in the Canon Companion in the special martial arts rules section.

There is no canon material saying one way or another that I know of which talks about the presence or absence of non-elves in the TTPFSF. However, much of this is now considered to be canon, especially since significant portions of it appeared in Shadows of North America.

Ranks in carromeleg are expressed in stances: the more skilled one is, the more natural the stance. This is easily recognizable, so it is quite possible for two individuals skilled in carromeleg fighting each other to determine which of them has the higher level of skill (as opposed to which one's kicking the other's ass, which can be determined by any number of factors.)

I'd rate Tir Ghosts as very high in Carromeleg.

fiou !! another invention of pigglets ....carromeleg is close-combat like with ear prothesis !!
Orks like Trolls in Tir are here for surelined elven racial dominance ...army=military power = lot of elves

Now lots = not all...

Hmmmm, would that mean you think a few would get through. I'm GMing that some of the forces of Ghosts are Orks, Trolls, and Dwarves. Not to say they are even combined a majority. They just are part of the unit.

Thank you all. I think that helped a bit.

Since the Tir's ruling elves are extremely racist, and the Ghosts are seen as the military embodiment of the nation, it is unlikely they let non-elves in. We can't trust those types on top secret mssions.
They probly don't say that openly. but probably to get to the Ghosts you must have certain other postings- you don't just get to go in as a recruit, and not all those required spots are open to non-elves. Or maybe you're required to speak fluent "elf" (I can't remember how to spell it)and gee, sorry Trooper but all the courses are filled up.

I'm sure a determined individual or two might make it in, but they'd be a rarity, imo. They'd have to be exceptionally skilled, on top of the usual requirements.

Absolutely. The words "racist" and "ethnocentric" do not by any means mean stupid. One does not survive for thousands of years, or become the leader of a nation, by being so short-sighted and thickheaded. However, one does manage these things by being resourceful and taking full advantage of both the strengths and weaknesses of others.

if you're looking for info on what carromeleg might look like, you might check out capoeira, since the two styles are similar enough to share the same stats.

Would Orks be allowed in Tir SF? I would say yes. Orks would make some the best SF troopers out there (just by looking at their stats). As far as the racism,part you can take that one of several ways.

They wouldn't let in orks because of racist attitudes. The US military was somewhat like this in the early to mid part of the 20th century, but they were also one of the first US institutions to intergrate.

They let orks in because they make great soliders. The Roman Empire in the Imperial era used to have Germanic and Gaulic mercenaries fight for them, even though they considered them barbarians. In fact some historians believe this was a big reason for Rome's down fall. I mean do you think every elf is going to want to join SF as enlisted if other jobs are open to them in the private sector. For orks being SF might just be the best thing they can get while still being part of society. That would mean orks would work even harder if they had a shot of being in SF.

Again its all in the way you look at it.

From what I have read it is hard for elves born outside of the Tir to become citizens. If there that racists against there own kind do you really think there going to let orks and trolls in there military, let alone there SF? There not a huge country like America, they don't fight wars over seas, all they really do is guard there borders and do the occasional SF mission. I seriously doubt there is more than a handful of orcs and trolls even living in the Tir, let alone serving her military or going places only the BEST OF THE BEST can go.

It's an idyllic thought that the Tir is as progressed as we are now, but hardly true. However it's your game play it how you want, but just bear in mind that your not really playing cannon.

The Tir was created for elves and elves only. Think about that.

Well... they do need meats to shovel the snow and till the fields; after all, machines are so noisy and make gathering talesma difficult. The chubby races do all these things just fine.

Orks and Trolls do in fact join the Peace Force, but I find it unlikely that the Ghosts would accept any (mental conditioning and purity are ideal for special forces). However, I would certainly expect "lower" special forces groups such as SWAT or whatever, to include such members for various reasons (largely pacification).

Do not expect to find any tusks in high ranks though. You just can't trust them.

shadow, there's no official answer to the question. therefore, it's impossible for you to say--or, at least, to say in all correctness--whether anyone's answer is "cannon" or not. or even if it's canon.

Well yes and no (I hate that answer). I can't tell you whats cannon for you but I can certainly point at a book and say, yes this is cannon. And in the books the Elves of Tir are racists, superior and snobs. Hell they were forced to have a dragon on there "board" and they hate him. Every account I have read of the border patrol has been shoot first, and keep shooting. According to the old Tir sourcebook they don't have an open invitation for people to immigrate, including other elves. So taking all those things into account and applying a little social modeling it is not hard to say that yes, the elves are racists, and no they would not allow meta's to join there Elite of the Elite special forces. They are not going to hold up a troll who just performed a mission to school children and say "look here be like him". Uh-uh no way is it going to happen. I know it's an ugly truth but racism is rarely pretty and never makes sense.

Now unless I am completely mistaken (and I could be) on my take of the elves of Tir, I can say with %100 assurity that these things are cannon, as they have all been stated in SB's and Novels.

This could be a good trial for geekdome,

anyone out there know of an instance where the elves were all friendly and opened there borders?

Let's go over a few things.

The nation is made up of 85% elves, and 5% orks, the only other larger minority then orks is dwarves, which is 7%.

You might think that is as nothing. Sure they are a lesser group, they are treated like minority.

What else is there.
Black Ladner, and Garth Stone both dwarves but hell they are still on the council of princes. Larry Zincan is a an ork also on the council and lastly is a sasquatch named "Rex," and he is on the council of princes.

So I think that there could be enough political pushing to say that they(any of the minorities out there) could get into the military special ops. Now the difference between military and political is a whole world. Brotherhood happens in combat a tech dwarf, ork, sasquatch whatever becomes your best friend after he saves your hoop.

"Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose."

Actually, they are just yes-men. They are just there to pacify the people, like the Star Chamber.

Kanada Ten, I do understand that they are to pacify the people that was part of my point. That the elves allow people into position to "pacify the people." They might be just figure heads up there but they got a lot of nicey nices for just being puppets.

Now when I talk about a ghost its a little different, there are a lot of references to times when the Elves do things just to make the public think that their "swell." Like every once and a while with a lot of publicity reversing a charge, or letting some person into their country without much problem. It's all about publicity.

I can imagine that they'd allow an ork, troll, dwarf on the Ghosts just to say look we are allowing an ork, sure its just one ork, probably have a ratio of like 1 to 100, or even greater in the armed forces. However in the military especially special forces everyone has to be efficient, and it doesn't matter how different you are you become best friends, a "brother" in some ways because of the things you do with that person.

(I don't know about my numbers, I could see them diffently off, however I just see that it could be possible. From what the canon throws our way.)



P.S. to any person spelling canon with two Ns and not one, it is spell canon. The incorrect way is caNNon, and once again the correct way is caNon. The capitalization of the n was done for drawing the eyes to the error of the spelling, it has nothing to do with the correctness of the way in which to spell it.

I don't know anything about the Tir army set up but do you figure it is conscripted or volunteer?
Then from within the set up are members of the ghost squad selected or do they say “hey I want to go blow things up for the Tir nation”

If they are selected then… the powers that be could essentially select anyone.
If it is meet these criteria and be willing to do the job… well then who knows what the criteria are?

Sure the fields of fire can bring anybody together as brothers, but training units are pressure cookers that can bring the best and the worst out in anyone. And when the Ork recruit gets tired of being picked on and rips some poor skinny-boy’s arms off who is going to get kicked out? The Elf or the Ork? I think the environment would breed too much of a “one-shot your out” mentality against the sub-races and every raciest in the place would have a field day. I’m not saying that every elf is racist. I’m just saying that sometimes it only takes one.

ghosts are given way too much training and way too many cool toys to be conscripts. the regular military is probably also volunteer, though i don't have any specific data to back that up.

and, yes, an ork that screws up and knocks the points off some elf's ears is going to get a dishonorable discharge. but the few non-elves who make it into ghost training are highly-disciplined anyway--perhaps more disciplined than their elven counterparts.

Tir Peace Corps duty (military or police) is mandatory for all citizens (though you can pay for non-duty).

Best guess, they don't allow anyone to volunteer for the special units until their conscripted service is finished and they re-up or re-join later. That way they know they're getting dedicated people that want to be there and that will have picked up the basics of soldiering during conscription.

indeed. i would go so far as to say that a prospective Ghost has to have at least one voluntary term of enlistment under his belt--total enlistment, about six years. occifers would face the same criteria; the one- or two-year mandatory enlistment, then OCS, then serve the term of their commission. Ghosts are supposed to be best-of-the-best types; a guy with a two-year mandatory enlistment does not fit that mold.

And of course this all further limits the orcs and trolls, who don't live long and can't start till they are "mature." So very few get even close to being a ghost. Of course I can definetely still see it happening.

i thought that age thing was just orks?

Orks 35
Trolls 45

according to the timeline explorer, Dar Varien pushed a law through the council that allowed all metatypes to join the military.

This reminds me of the Red Samurai discussion--how virtually all of them are Japanese humans, with some token elves (for some elven warrior BS reason). That's fine and all in theory, but realistically I can't imagine for even a second that any government/corp would be so fucking blind as to not be so utterly close-minded, especially when it comes to SpecFor. Now, if the Ghosts were just a glorified SWAT team (which, IIRC, they are inside the Tir), then it's generally not that big a deal because, well, it's a SWAT team; NOT a finely honed team of commandos whose missions require stealth, subterfuge, and an ability to blend into and effectively communicate with foreign persons in the completion of their missions.

As it stands, if the Ghosts are all elves, and I'm being hunted by them then I'm going to hide out in the Ork Underground because from the comments I'm reading here they'd stick out like, well, a bunch of arrogant racist prick elves in the middle of a near completely orkish community.

It's like the whole issue of women in American Special Operations. The Navy SEALs may have some BS excuse that probably goes more to culture than physical reasons, but even Delta has female operators. But then, Delta was created to be our SAS-styled CT unit.

Tir Ghosts could get into the Ork Underground using Mask and Masking, ect. Racists can act like they "don't care" far better than people who are just "human."

I find it doubtful they would even be spotted at all.

May I ask how many Muslims you think Mossad has in its ranks?

The Tir Ghosts are a military and SWAT unit. That's part of what makes them unique.

And again, please don't confuse racism with stupidity.

kanada, there's a difference between being a racist and welcoming someone who you indentify as an enemy.

I think you'd see other metas in the regular services (I think Tir has those). But not in the Ghosts- after all, these are the guys who devoted to Tir, as any special forces operative is dedicated to their nation. How can a troll give their devotion to someplace like Tir?

It's the land of the promise. There are still people very galliable. Plus there are people who are trying to change things, and know that the only wany to change things are to get in and to move things around and be extremely dedicated to your cause. So what if that dedication rubs off in your other work.

But they act against the movements within Tir for change. I don't see how a meta could reconcile that.

Since this has moved away from any sort of sourcebook discussion, I'm moving this thread where it belongs.

Another age-related bias inherent to the structure would be the Rite of Progression. Never mind the outcomes! Never mind even their hidden calculation. Everyone with a Tir SIN is required to take the next Rite of Progression after (I think) their 18th birthday ... but the Rite is only held every seven years, and at least one was suspended. Be an ork born into the wrong year, and you might not find yourself with adult citizenship until you are 25: with two-thirds of your life gone.

you are indeed mistaken. women can be in just about any unit except SEALs.

Thanks, MFB.

Anyone have any idea who the Navy women were at the premiere of GI Jane some years ago? They were there with a bunch of Navy men and referred to as guests from the SEALs. I didn't see them wearing SEAL pins on their dress uniforms, though, and I couldn't believe the SEALs would allow operational soldiers to appear at such a public event.

why not? they're just soldiers. it's not like they're spies with secret identities. if they're on a mission, and you see them, you're probably going to die in the very near future.

Well, the reason why not is that all of the major spec forces today (SAS, SBS, Delta, SEALs, Force Recon, Jaegers, etc.) have a policy of not permitting the identities of operational spec force soldiers to be revealed (that's why some photos in books have the eyes/faces blanked out 'cos those soldiers are still in active service).

Originally, it was to protect the soldiers and families from retaliation - not sure if there's more to it than that today.

*shrug* possibly. unlike many military personnel, i'm comfortable enough in my own sense of self-worth to admit that i don't rub elbows with special forces types!

Hehehe, I remember that. The CNN reporters almost got their asses handed to them - those guys (not sure if they were SEALs - thought they were some other spec force unit) sure were pissed! Gawd, can you imagine your run going that way??

I think it was a staged PR stunt by some idiot (officer) in the chain of command.

Although it would take some nerve for a military group to dress up as reporters and wait until the SEALs were out of the water before opening up...

I apologize to any and all runners who die in the near future at the hands of suspiciously well-armed reporters....

-Siege

I can't imagine something like that being a PR stunt considering how goofy and incompetent the landing force came off in the report!

If it was the brainchild of some idiot officer, I don't think his prospects of advancement were very good after that incident.

heh. anybody here read Sharkman Six?

Nope, can't say I have. Why, is it any good?

indeed. it talks about that beach landing (from the POV of a fictional Marine Force Recon unit). it's also a very accurate look at what the military is like, from the inside.

Fiction or non-fiction, MFB? Can you remember the author?

Sharkman Six

If the link doesn't work, the listed author is "Owen West" and can be found on Amazon.com.

-Siege