JongWK
May 30 2006, 03:13 AM
For those of you interested in militech, here's the
CNN story.
HMHVV Hunter
May 30 2006, 03:22 AM
Could be very interesting.
There's gotta be some other applications for this to. I'm no scientist, but there's gotta be other applications - tiny welders to weld small cracks in hull armor, maybe nanobots that act as instant sutures in the personnel themselves (knitting wounds shut).
Pretty cool stuff.
Cray74
May 30 2006, 12:32 PM
QUOTE (HMHVV Hunter) |
There's gotta be some other applications for this to. I'm no scientist, but there's gotta be other applications - tiny welders to weld small cracks in hull armor, maybe nanobots that act as instant sutures in the personnel themselves (knitting wounds shut).
|
Alas, that CNN article had nothing to do with microscopic, free-roaming robots - the nanotech of science fiction.
In real life, nanotech is control of materials at a nanoscale.
A typical example is control of grain (crystal) sizes in metals and ceramics by careful heat treating - no mini-robots involved, just a metallurgical furnace, laser, or other heat source.
Another example are modern electronics manufacturing, which reliably reproduces electronic structures on microchips at a scale of tens of nanometers. That involves careful crystal growth, spraying new layers, and selective etching.
For the foreseeable future, that's all nanotech's going to be. Microscopic robots remain the domain of sci-fi.
PBTHHHHT
May 30 2006, 12:37 PM
Of interesting note, the US patent office has compiled a new area in the classification system for nanotechnology, class 977. It might not mean much unless you know the US patent classification system, but the office at least is trying to respond to all the new applications dealing with nanotechnology.
emo samurai
May 30 2006, 03:56 PM
So does this mean that cyberware will START at delta-grade?
HMHVV Hunter
May 30 2006, 04:25 PM
QUOTE (emo samurai) |
So does this mean that cyberware will START at delta-grade? |
I don't think so.
Read "Man & Machine" sometime, in the section about nanotech. They say that nanotech has been part of cyberware systems from the beginning - that without some nanotech systems in them, most cyberware would be too bulky and too Essence-costly to be effective.
hyzmarca
May 30 2006, 04:46 PM
QUOTE (Cray74) |
For the foreseeable future, that's all nanotech's going to be. Microscopic robots remain the domain of sci-fi. |
And they probably will for quite a while. The probability of anyone creating grey-goo level autonomous nanorobots falls somewhere between unpossible and not fraggin' likely. We can't even make giagagitic room-sized robots with enough processing power to safely perform basic surgery on a human body. Good luck creating a machine smaller that a human cell with that much memory.
stevebugge
May 30 2006, 04:57 PM
I wonder if they have tried using Nano-Tech to Demagnetize Ship Hulls for mine defense.
Shrike30
May 30 2006, 08:57 PM
I was under the impression that it was ferrous materials in ship hulls that the MADs in mines worked against. Is it possible to make a "ferrous" material not respond to magnetic fields?
stevebugge
May 30 2006, 09:16 PM
That's what I'm wondering, is if manipulated at the molecular level the hull steel could be made to respond in a different manner than it does under standard manufacture.
Butterblume
May 30 2006, 09:36 PM
It seems to be possible to make non-magnetic steel. That topic crept up a while back in the german Fanpro forum, and because I couldn't believe that, I tried to check it
.
Its an alloy of iron with certain metals, and the resulting high-grade steel is not magnetic. It is also not that easy to process, since temperatures out of a different range destroys that non-magnetic property.
The german marine use this for ships and the best submarines in the world
(at least those without a nuclear reactor).
Of course,it has nothing to with nano technologie in any way
.
Kanada Ten
May 30 2006, 10:19 PM
Nanotechnology could make the processes of developing hyperco and other non-magnetic steels easier, plus they can allow single process production. It's a slow process, but the advantages of no joints or weld butts is huge in many applications, allowing lighter mechanical and structural constructions in addition to electronics. Of course, that's SR level technology, not today's.
Cray74
May 31 2006, 01:21 AM
QUOTE (stevebugge) |
I wonder if they have tried using Nano-Tech to Demagnetize Ship Hulls for mine defense. |
Not nanotech, but composites, wood, and stainless steel do alright.
QUOTE |
I was under the impression that it was ferrous materials in ship hulls that the MADs in mines worked against. Is it possible to make a "ferrous" material not respond to magnetic fields? |
Yes. Austenitic stainless steels (like your typical kitchen sink and Paul Revere cookware) are non-magnetic. IIRC, it's the nickel content messing up the ferromagnetism.
QUOTE |
Its an alloy of iron with certain metals, and the resulting high-grade steel is not magnetic. It is also not that easy to process, since temperatures out of a different range destroys that non-magnetic property.
|
Huh. The Germans must be trying too hard to use conventional carbon steels. If you have a slightly bigger budget, common stainless steels are non-magnetic (that 18%+ chromium content drives up the price - chrome ain't as cheap as iron). Like 304 and 316 stainless. Common stuff.
QUOTE |
It's a slow process, but the advantages of no joints or weld butts is huge in many applications, allowing lighter mechanical and structural constructions in addition to electronics. Of course, that's SR level technology, not today's. |
Joints and welds are overrated as weak spots. If you don't mind the price, you can use thin-wall casting or 3D rapid-prototyping techniques. Welds can be as strong as the surrounding material. It's just a matter of cost. Usually, it's cheaper to make weaker joints and welds.
Kanada Ten
May 31 2006, 01:36 AM
Nanotechnology [used as I'm describing it] would be an extension of rapid prototyping.
Cray74
May 31 2006, 01:53 AM
QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
Nanotechnology [used as I'm describing it] would be an extension of rapid prototyping. |
Okay.
emo samurai
May 31 2006, 02:48 AM
Rapid prototyping?
Kanada Ten
May 31 2006, 02:52 AM
Sterolithography, solid freeform, 3D printing, Selective Laser Sintering, Fused Deposition Modeling... and then Nanofusion.
HMHVV Hunter
May 31 2006, 02:54 AM
QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
Sterolithography, solid freeform, 3D printing, Selective Laser Sintering, Fused Deposition Modeling... and then Nanofusion. |
The what, the what and the what now?
emo samurai
May 31 2006, 03:03 AM
I read the article on Wikipedia, but it was also filled with jargon. Is it basically building things microscopic layer by microscopic layer?
PBTHHHHT
May 31 2006, 03:36 AM
QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
Sterolithography, solid freeform, 3D printing, Selective Laser Sintering, Fused Deposition Modeling... and then Nanofusion. |
So what do you want to know about the field of rapid prototyping, etc? Hilarious how y'all are now talking an area that I do at work.
Kanada Ten
May 31 2006, 03:44 AM
The people in the unit over have like 13 of the plastics (mostly sterolithography and a couple 3D printers), and I'm readup in laser sintering/plating. What area are you in?
QUOTE |
Is it basically building things microscopic layer by microscopic layer? |
Sure, using a few various methods of fusing stock material together. Nanofusion will have the advantage of interlacing and wider material selection - not to mention tolerances measured in molecules...
Crusher Bob
May 31 2006, 03:48 AM
Well, the burning question in my mind is: "how long will it take you to make me my dikote AVS ally spirit?".
PBTHHHHT
May 31 2006, 03:51 AM
QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
The people in the unit over have like 13 of the plastics (mostly sterolithography and a couple 3D printers), and I'm readup in laser sintering/plating. What area are you in? |
I work for the patent office, I examine the applications for them. In the molding arts, but I specialize in injection molding machines, blow molding machines, control systems, and my fave, all the 3-D machines including stereolithography, 3-D sintering, etc... Lately, I'm doing a bunch of imprint technology cases some of them are going after nanostructures so I'm taking a special interest in that area now. So I get to look at the freaking schematics all day long and dream about how they work. If I'm lucky they'll let us see one in action when an inventor comes to the office for a demonstration (which happened once about 6 years ago...)
Wounded Ronin
May 31 2006, 03:54 AM
QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
QUOTE (Cray74 @ May 30 2006, 07:32 AM) | For the foreseeable future, that's all nanotech's going to be. Microscopic robots remain the domain of sci-fi. |
And they probably will for quite a while. The probability of anyone creating grey-goo level autonomous nanorobots falls somewhere between unpossible and not fraggin' likely. We can't even make giagagitic room-sized robots with enough processing power to safely perform basic surgery on a human body. Good luck creating a machine smaller that a human cell with that much memory.
|
Hmm. Thing is, I remember reading a few articles in the past about the prospect of using nanotech robots to clear away artery plaque. I think they ran in Scientific American.
I forgot what the articles said, though.
PBTHHHHT
May 31 2006, 04:00 AM
they're still quite a while away from that. A few years ago (about 3, so it may be dated), some researchers came into the office to show what they're doing by manipulating molecules. They showed a motor they managed to create on the video (though all it did was spin), a tick (dust mite? I forget) all of a sudden came out of nowhere crawling around and it got on top and the inventors decided to kick up the motor. That was hilarious, but anyway, point is, they're still a bit aways to getting something like nano robots that will independently move around operating on an artery plaque.
HMHVV Hunter
May 31 2006, 04:12 AM
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT) |
they're still a bit aways to getting something like nano robots that will independently move around operating on an artery plaque. |
Maybe they're a ways away on the independent part, but what about a remote-controlled type? Like nanobots that surgeons could operate by RC (or something similar) during the course of an operation?
PBTHHHHT
May 31 2006, 04:31 AM
QUOTE (HMHVV Hunter) |
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT @ May 31 2006, 12:00 AM) | they're still a bit aways to getting something like nano robots that will independently move around operating on an artery plaque. |
Maybe they're a ways away on the independent part, but what about a remote-controlled type? Like nanobots that surgeons could operate by RC (or something similar) during the course of an operation?
|
Still a bit a ways. One research group managed to make a one molecule car that moved by the temperature change, but it was also unguided. To have a nanorobot that can last for its duration, be able to propel through the bloodstream to the desired location, and have the necessary onboard communication/navigation for it to properly operate is going to take a lot more than what we have now.
Crusher Bob
May 31 2006, 04:45 AM
The first medical nanobots (if you want to call them that) are likely to be something like artificial antibodies. Which do not require any real intelligence or direction to do their jobs. They just latch on to something you want to get rid of, and the hosts immune system would do the rest.
From what I remember, the SR doom (the antibody based bio-war agent) was based on some research done in attaching radioactive isotopoes to monoclonal antibodies targeted on cancerous cells.
Cray74
May 31 2006, 02:51 PM
QUOTE (HMHVV Hunter) |
Maybe they're a ways away on the independent part, but what about a remote-controlled type? Like nanobots that surgeons could operate by RC (or something similar) during the course of an operation? |
At the rate MEMS and nanotech has been developing since 1990...you're looking at 50 years, if not longer. There's nigh-insurmountable problems with power sources in addition to the command/control issues, and there are no radical breakthoughs in manipulators - spinning gears is still the height of micro-electromechanical system development (along with a bit of fluid pumping), like it was 15 years ago.
I'm willing to bet genetic engineering will be able to deliver some heart-cleaning method a lot sooner than non-biological nanotech.
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