Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Trolls and large weapons
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
TBRMInsanity
Thank God I work for a good government.
Raygun
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)
The main reason I say HMGs only fire in FA is because of how 90% of them are designed.

While that is true, I believe the point Aus was trying to make is that it doesn't have to be. Considering that if you intend to derive the weapon from an existing design (and doing so from an HMG is only logical), you'll have to change quite a lot in order to facilitate ergonomics at the very least. In that case, there's no reason why any existing HMG design couldn't be made select fire. In any case, the Troll wouldn't be using it in the role of an HMG. It would essentially be used as a giant assault rifle.

QUOTE
Most have a fixed pin receiver group which is great for fully automatic weapons but hard to design for SA or burst fire.

Would you like to elaborate on what you mean by that?

Personally, I see little issue with taking an M2HB, flipping it upside down, replacing the top cover with a magazine well (say, one that accepts extended M82A1 mags, for example), replacing the backplate with a shoulder stock, and adding a pistol grip with a select fire trigger group (capable of disconnecting the trigger lever from the sear after each shot). Slap some iron sights and maybe a Picatinny rail to what used to be the bottom of the receiver and blammo, Troll-sized assault rifle which is not terribly dissimilar from a G3 in terms of disassembly.

QUOTE
Plus with HMGs your most likely shooting at vehicles not people, and as a result you want to hit the enemy vehicle with as much lead as humanly possible.

Again, the Troll is likely to treat the weapon differently than a human would.

QUOTE
Anyone who wants to experience what it is like to fire these sorts of weapons should look into joining their countries infantry. Some countries have a reserve/home guard unit that allows them to be part time soldiers in your country's army. The other way is to see if local gun clubs are allowed to test fire these weapons (for LMGs and above I thing only the US allows them on gun ranges).

Or, since it's perfectly legal for civilians to own fully automatic firearms in the US (with the proper tax stamp or license), you can simply find someone who owns one and befriend them. It takes some work, but that's how I've gotten the (admittedly limited) experience with fully automatic firearms that I've had. It's also not terribly difficult to find NFA dealers. I would guess that about 99% of them own machine guns personally.
Squinky
Edited because on retrospect it added nothing to the thread. My apologys.
TBRMInsanity
I don't think people are getting the point I'm tring to make about HMGs, they are just too heavy, too big, and too powerful. NO troll would be able to fire one of these weapons unsupported (or even with a full gyroscope stabalizer). The only way your going to get one of these weapons to fire in a personel mode is if you attach it to an exosceleton that can handle the stress these weapons produce.
Tarantula
I think the point you're missing, is just how big, heavy, and strong a troll is, and how much less the forces invovled seem like when you are that big, strong and heavy.
Raygun
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)
I don't think people are getting the point I'm tring to make about HMGs, they are just too heavy, too big, and too powerful. NO troll would be able to fire one of these weapons unsupported (or even with a full gyroscope stabalizer). The only way your going to get one of these weapons to fire in a personel mode is if you attach it to an exosceleton that can handle the stress these weapons produce.

Dude, honestly, I've done the math on this. You can find it by searching the forum as instructed in my very first post in this thread. Your assumption here is incorrect. The average Troll is going to be plenty massive to handle the recoil from an HMG without any kind of recoil-stabilizing equipment.
ShadowDragon8685
I don't think what he's saying is about mass, Ray. I think he's caught up on the fact that an HMG is not likely to have a standard rifle shaped support (IE, a stock - think of the handles on a Ma Duece), and that it's going to be generating a LOT of impact on a relatively small point - like me. I've got a smegging lot of mass, and firing a shotgun repeatedly - especially if it's got ridiculously hot loads - is still going to bruise the shit out of my shoulder.


That said, what would be an HMG round to a human would easily be an AR round to a Troll, if he were firing a weapon specifically made for his MetaType, and not just a human weapon fitted for troll hands.
Shadow
I think I understand where he is coming from, let me try to explain it this way.

I was an INF in the US Army. I weighed (at the time) 250 pounds, about 140 kilos. I stand 76 inches or 6'4", just a little over two meters tall. For a time I thought it would be cool to be the M60 gunner, so I volunteered. Now the 60 is considered a GPMG, or a MMG depending at how you look at it.

Now the M60 I used had a rifle stock. So you could fir it from the standing position, it wasn't easy but you could do it. The preferred way for me was crouching. It too to much to lay down, and I could stay mobile if I was kneeling/crouched.

The .60 fires a 7.62 round, the same, or very similar round fired by many AR's. There is no reason why that gun couldn't be carried like an SMG by a troll. Seriously. A troll weighs 3 times as much as me. At least 600 pounds. And is 3 feet taller, two feet wider than me. If I can use a M-60 like an AR, then a troll should have no problem shooting it like a SMG. Whats 17 pounds to someone who can lift 400?

Now a Ma Duece .50 cal weighs about 75 pounds unloaded. But some of that is the tripod and the connector. Remove those and you could probably get it down to 50 pounds. Thats 4 times what a M60 weighs. So a troll who is 3 times bigger than me, could easily manage a 50 pound gun using both hands. Easily.

Thats it, they are that big that it really would not be a problem. It would be like us using a big AR. It would have to be redesigned ergonomically, but hey, your going to do that anyways.
Shrike30
I'm thinking the application would be a little more like a battle rifle (to humans, the M-14/G-3/FAL "class" of weapons in .308). Has an autofire setting, but is usually used on semiautomatic because the round is heavy enough to sit someone down hard on a solid hit, you've only got 20 rounds in the mag, and the recoil makes the gun walk around some on full auto. Going cyclic is a bit of a waste. I get the impression I'm imagining the recoil affecting the troll a little more than some others are (Raygun, my impression of your imagined troll weapon has it being used more like a .223 assault rifle than a .308 battle rifle), but that's not a very large difference.
TBRMInsanity
I see I'm not being listened to so I'm dropping this thread.
Shrike30
Hey, I'm listening. I just think you're wrong smile.gif
Butterblume
QUOTE (Shadow)
I was an INF in the US Army. I weighed (at the time) 250 pounds, about 140 kilos. I stand 76 inches or 6'4", just a little over two meters tall. For a time I thought it would be cool to be the M60 gunner, so I volunteered. Now the 60 is considered a GPMG, or a MMG depending at how you look at it.

You know, your numbers seem a little off.
Now, you might just be an engineer for NASA biggrin.gif.

I was a Jäger (light infantry) at the german army. I weighed (at the time) about 65 kilos (130 metric pounds). I didn't volunteer, I just fieldstripped the MG3 faster than most guys the G3, and I qualified in basic training for gold status with the MG.

QUOTE
Now the 60 is considered a GPMG, or a MMG depending at how you look at it.

Since the MG42 most portable machine guns qualify as GPMG (General Purpose Machine Guns), meaning they count as light when carried by infantry and medium when mounted on a tripod or vehicle.

(btw: a tripod is heavy).




Shrike30
QUOTE (Butterblume)
Since the MG42 most portable machine guns qualify as GPMG (General Purpose Machine Guns), meaning they count as light when carried by infantry and medium when mounted on a tripod or vehicle.

Are you including 5.56mm "Squad Automatic" type machine guns on this list? You usually don't see those mounted on vehicles.
Butterblume
Hm, can you still be a General Purpose Machine Gun with a toy calibre of 5,56mm?
Shadow
I am not an engineer, which is why my conversion is off, they are just "best guess". And you are right, the Tripod on a M2 is freeking heavy, so you lose a lot of weight when you drop it.
Butterblume
I never noticed that the basic HMG in the SR4 book has a 3(10) recoil compensation.

A Troll or a strong Ork would be strong enough to lug that around. Like mentioned in the text, it might even be fired standing... (After all, shockpad and gas vent 3 gives 4 point recoil compensation, probably enough to shoot a long burst)
Shrike30
I've got a pretty funny image in my head at the moment...

In the beginning of the getaway scene in Heat (which rapidly degenerates into the massive downtown shootout scene), the characters inside of the car don't roll down the windows and try to stick their bodies out of a speeding car in order to shoot forwards... they just start shooting through the windshield. I can imagine how loud (and bright, with a carbine) that'd be inside of a vehicle.

Skip forwards to 2070...

The van slews around a corner and accelerates, building up speed towards the Lone Star roadblock. "We got company, folks!" yells the rigger, as bullets start hitting the van, starring the windshield and punching holes in the radiator. "Frag these cops," growls the troll in the backseat, dragging the 12.7mm up between the front seats and levelling it through the windshield, flipping the selector to autofire. "Uh, Zeek, hold on a...." is as far as the front passenger Flea gets, before the windshield is blown out of the frame riding 12 cubic feet of muzzle flash, and everyone's blast dampening kicks in...
Raygun
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
I don't think what he's saying is about mass, Ray. I think he's caught up on the fact that an HMG is not likely to have a standard rifle shaped support (IE, a stock - think of the handles on a Ma Duece), and that it's going to be generating a LOT of impact on a relatively small point - like me. I've got a smegging lot of mass, and firing a shotgun repeatedly - especially if it's got ridiculously hot loads - is still going to bruise the shit out of my shoulder.

TBRMInsanity's point all along has been a lack of controllability due to excessive recoil. I have shown mathmatically, in previous threads, that this would not be the case. Aus posted a link demonstrating that even humans have little issue firing a rifle using an "HMG" round (.50 BMG) from the shoulder using a properly designed rifle.

Now, regarding ergonomics, kigmatzomat is the one who brought it up. In my post following his, I assumed that in any case, the "HMG" would need to be suited to the Troll's stature, otherwise he would be likely to run into problems. Ergonomics are an important aspect with regards to controllability. I went on to say "you'll have to change quite a lot in order to facilitate ergonomics at the very least." I then explained how an M2HB could be modified to suit the Troll's stature. So I definitely considered that issue.

TBRMInsanity went on to say:
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)
I don't think people are getting the point I'm tring to make about HMGs, they are just too heavy, too big, and too powerful. NO troll would be able to fire one of these weapons unsupported (or even with a full gyroscope stabalizer). The only way your going to get one of these weapons to fire in a personel mode is if you attach it to an exosceleton that can handle the stress these weapons produce.

Which I refute completely, as I have gone to lengths beyond simple supposition to conclude otherwise (even to my own suprise).

QUOTE (Shadow)
A troll weighs 3 times as much as me. At least 600 pounds. And is 3 feet taller, two feet wider than me.

According to Patrick Goodman's excellent article found in TSS #13, the average Troll would weigh more like 1,083 lbs, considering other factors mentioned in canon.

QUOTE
Now a Ma Duece .50 cal weighs about 75 pounds unloaded.

An M2 actually weighs 84 lbs without the tripod. The pintle pin actually slides through a hole in the receiver itself, so there's no extra weight on the gun when the tripod is detached.

QUOTE (Shrike30)
I get the impression I'm imagining the recoil affecting the troll a little more than some others are (Raygun, my impression of your imagined troll weapon has it being used more like a .223 assault rifle than a .308 battle rifle), but that's not a very large difference.

Okay, here we go. I hope you guys appreciate this.

Human, average weight: 154 lbs
Rifle, M16A2: 7.5 lbs, unloaded (4.87% body weight)
Load: 62 grain FMJ @ 3025 fps (US M855)
Propellant Weight: 26.1 grains
Recoil: 4.5 fpe @ 6.2 fps
4.5/154 = 0.02922 fpe/lb

Human, average weight: 154 lbs
Rifle, M14: 9.2 lbs, unloaded (5.97% body weight)
Load: 146 grain FMJ @ 2750 fps (US M80)
Propellant Weight: 46 grains
Recoil: 13.4 fpe @ 9.7 fps
13.7/154 = 0.08701 fpe/lb

Troll, average weight: 1083 lbs
Rifle, M2HB: 84 lbs, unloaded (7.75% body weight)
Load: 660 grain FMJ @ 2910 fps (US M33)
Propellant Weight: 235 grains
Recoil: 36.7 fpe @ 5.3 fps
36.7/1083 = 0.03388 fpe/lb

Note that the M2HB has no additional weight added for ergonomic purposes. This data assumes the rifle is being fired at as light of a weight as possible; one round in the chamber, no magazine attached, meaning recoil will be maximized. Also note that this does not include any reduction in recoil from means other that sheer mass (particularly in the M2HB's case, its short recoil operation and barrel buffer).

Now, if we actually bring the Troll's rifle down to a weight equal to the human/rifle ratio (considering the XM312, this should be possible), we get this:

Troll, average weight: 1083 lbs
Rifle, (hypothetical): 59 lbs, unloaded (5.5% body weight)
Load: 660 grain FMJ @ 2910 fps (US M33)
Propellant Weight: 235 grains
Recoil: 52.2 fpe @ 7.5 fps
52.2/1083 = 0.04819 fpe/lb

Still less than (almost half) the fpe/lb of a human with an M14.

Sources:
How Much Did You Say He Weighed?
US Army Ammunition Data Sheets - TM 43-0001-27
M2 .50 Caliber (12.7mm) Machine Gun "Ma Duce"
Colt Weapon Systems - M16
Springfield Armory - M1A Standard
Recoil Calculator

QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)
I see I'm not being listened to so I'm dropping this thread.

You are being listened to. Unfortunately, the assumptions you've been making are incorrect. This is why some people, including myself, have been disagreeing with you.
Butterblume
QUOTE
According to Patrick Goodman's excellent article found in TSS #13, the average Troll would weigh more like 1,083 lbs, considering other factors mentioned in canon.


Sounds like a SR3 Troll to me - in SR4 RAW they are a smaller and heavier than in SR3. Just mentioning biggrin.gif.

Raygun
That is (somewhat) based on an "SR1-3 Troll". I was unaware that they had changed the height/weight for Trolls in SR4. Incidentally, the weight still appears to be a bit off in SR4. In proportion to its height (using the formula provided in Goodman's article), I come up with a proper weight of 763 lbs (346.2kg).

Troll, average weight (SR4): 763 lbs
Rifle, M2HB: 84 lbs, unloaded (11% body weight)
Load: 660 grain FMJ @ 2910 fps (US M33)
Propellant Weight: 235 grains
Recoil: 36.7 fpe @ 5.3 fps
36.7/763 = 0.04809 fpe/lb

Still about half the recoil of human/M14, however, the "rifle" is proportionately nearly twice as heavy (17 lbs to an average human, a bit less than an M240B).

Troll, average weight (SR4): 763 lbs
Rifle, (hypothetical): 42 lbs, unloaded (5.5% body weight)
Load: 660 grain FMJ @ 2910 fps (US M33)
Propellant Weight: 235 grains
Recoil: 73.3 fpe @ 10.6 fps
73.3/763 = 0.09606 fpe/lb

That's a lot of recoil, definitely unmanageable in full auto without some kind of recoil management. However, utilizing an efficient muzzle brake or a recoil management system like the XM312, it would likely work just fine. Still no harness or anything like that needed. There's also no reason why the "rifle" couldn't be a tad heavier, say up to 8% body weight (61 lbs/troll).
Crusher Bob
Of course, then you get to the fact that trolls can carry and use 'really heavy weapons' as an MMG. A fire support troll carrying around a 25 or 30mm automatic grenade launcher /light autocannon on a bipod might be pretty handy to have around.

I think the real limiters on troll heavy weapons will probably be the ammunition weight.
Shrike30
I think weight is honestly less of a concern than volume. If you're making 20 round .50 caliber magazines, those get kinda bulky kinda fast.

QUOTE (Raygun)
I hope you guys appreciate this.


Raygun love is ALWAYS appreciated. notworthy.gif
eidolon
I once stood in a rowboat, propped 2 60's on my hips, and just started rockin'! And I didn't stop rockin' until I was waist deep in brass and sinking! And I did it all without sweating into my bitchin' red shvetband.

Austere Emancipator
Using Raygun's format:

Human, average weight: 154 lbs
M240B GPMG: 24.2 lbs, unloaded (15.7% body weight)
Load: 146 grain FMJ @ 2750 fps (US M80)
Propellant Weight: 46 grains
Recoil: 5.1 fpe @ 3.7 fps
5.1/154 = 0.03312 fpe/lb

Troll, average weight (SR4): 763 lbs
Rifle, (hypothetical 25x59Bmm "MMG"): 84 lbs, unloaded (11% body weight, about same as a Mk 48 Mod 0 for a human)
Load: 2037 grain HEDP @ 1750 fps (US XM1049?)
Propellant Weight: 50 grains (from earlier correspondence with Raygun)
Recoil: 52.1 fpe @ 6.3 fps
52.1/763 = 0.06828 fpe/lb

Troll, average weight (SR4): 763 lbs
Rifle, (hypothetical 20x102mm "HMG"): 105 lbs, unloaded (13.8% body weight)
Load: 1543 grain HEI @ 3280 fps (US M56A3)
Propellant Weight: 585 grains
Recoil: 213.9 fpe @ 11.5 fps
213.9/763 = 0.28034 fpe/lb

So, uhh, I guess trolls using AGLs as personal weapons will work, to an extent. High velocity 40mm rounds (like the ones fired from a Mk 19) will cause heftier recoil than the 25x59Bmm loads of an OCSW, though. But using automatic cannons, even relatively "light" 20mm ones, is probably out of the question. The felt recoil to a SR4-type troll from a 20x102mm cannon would be significantly worse than that from an M2HB to the average human.
DrowVampyre
Yeah, even a troll would have trouble with autocannons, I'd say. However, they could probably pull the Predator trick and use a smaller caliber minigun...that'd be plenty unpleasant for anyone on the receiving end, even if it would necessitate a gigantic backpack for all the ammo.
Austere Emancipator
They could definitely use small arms caliber miniguns. There's significant bulk involved in the weapon itself, the power source, and the ammunition, as you said, but beyond that it wouldn't cause serious problems for trolls. With those arms the torque is a non-issue, and the total (uncompensated) recoil force relative to mass is about the same as that for a human firing an M60.
Moon-Hawk
I would like to point out that the power source is likely less of a problem. They seem to have made some significant advances in battery technology.
Austere Emancipator
I was actually mentioning it because I wasn't sure what parts, exactly, come under the header "power source" when talking about minigun components. Apparently, at least in the case of an M134, it's just the battery and cable, so you can largely forget about that bit. It'd be a minor hindrance compared to the ammo, anyway.
Moon-Hawk
So much ammo.
Austere Emancipator
This much ammo?
Crusher Bob
Of course, using the SR rules, it would take a un-augmented human holding the trigger down ~14.67 minutes to use all that ammo up (15 rounds an action and 20 actions a minute) rotfl.gif
Moon-Hawk
Hey, you might well want to surpress for that long.
What about in real-life rules? How long would it really take a minigun to burn through 4400 rounds?
Austere Emancipator
With that particular weapon, 1 minute 6 seconds with the higher RoF (4000rpm), 2 minutes 12 seconds with the lower (2000rpm). 4min 24 seconds with an M240, 8 minutes with an M60 -- though either is likely to have a barrel failure before you get through all of that.
Shrike30
I recall seeing a demo from one of the big shoots last year of one of the new M60 mods... it's down to about 18 pounds, and they were able to run 850 rounds of ammo through it without stopping once. I wonder if they could quintuple that amount...
Austere Emancipator
The M60E4. They tried the same thing before in an earlier shoot, and the barrel blew out at around 800-something. You could probably get higher if it were done when its freezing outside instead of on a hot day in a desert, but I wonder if you can reliably get any air-cooled GPMG to over 2000 rounds cyclically. 4400 would be really pushing it, even with the sturdiest and most reliable MGs.
Shrike30
Take a note from computer cooling: add heat sinks along the barrel, inside of a shroud to protect the user's hands somewhat. It'd add a few pounds, but as a technical exercise, it'd be amusing...
Austere Emancipator
Make it like the Lewis gun, only with maximized surface area heat sinks like you said. Way more practical than having a revolving barrel and bolt array.
Shrike30
The question would be, of course, can we get one of the dumpshock CE dudes to clue us in on how much cooling we could get out of this... read.gif
Raygun
QUOTE (Shrike30)
I think weight is honestly less of a concern than volume. If you're making 20 round .50 caliber magazines, those get kinda bulky kinda fast.

Well, the kind of standard loadout for an M16A2/M4 is 7 magazines, or 210 rounds. At a pound per loaded mag, that represents 4.5% body weight. To the SR4 Troll, that's 34 lbs. 20 rounds of M33 weighs about 5 lbs. Assuming our hypothetical 20-round .50 BMG mags weigh two pounds a piece, we're looking at 7 lbs/mag. 34/7 = ~5 mags, or 100 rounds. Give him just one more mag (to 5.5% body weight), and he's carrying the same common loadout as a human with an M14.

That's not a whole lot of rounds to fire, but even so, it does represent an awful lot of firepower. I mean, can you imagine that?

QUOTE
Raygun love is ALWAYS appreciated.

smile.gif
Geekkake
QUOTE (Raygun)
That's not a whole lot of rounds to fire, but even so, it does represent an awful lot of firepower. I mean, can you imagine that?

Oh yes. Oooohhhh yes. I imagine it daily.
Shrike30
QUOTE (Raygun)
That's not a whole lot of rounds to fire, but even so, it does represent an awful lot of firepower. I mean, can you imagine that?

Oh, yeah... that's the kind of firepower you really want on your side when a firefight starts. A lot of things start getting reclassified as "concealment" rather than "cover..."

The limited ammunition count was one of the reasons for my battle rifle imagining of a troll gun. 120 rounds on semiautomatic can last you for a while, but if you start using bursts or suppressing targets, having a grand total of 6 mags of ammo can become an issue.

Besides, you can also have the troll carry a few hundred-round belt pouches for the crew's LMG. cyber.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012