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ryanstone
I have a question for all of you: Is there anywhere in the SR4 rule book that discusses trolls or other large characters, and their user of heavy weapons?
For instance, there is a heavy machine gun in the equipment section whos description mentions that the gun is usually vehicle mounted but trolls may be able to use the weapon as a personal weapon.
Are there rules that govern how big of a weapon is too big for anyone other than a troll to use? Maybe a certain body rating that has to be exceeded in order to use a heavy machine gun or Panther cannon as a personal weapon?

Kind of along these same lines, I have another question: Does high strength provide any recoil compensation? Or is the Str 1 character able to compensate for LMG recoil just as easily as the Str10 Troll?

Thanks in advance,
Ryan
Teulisch
I know we had recoil compensation for strength in previous editions. dunno where such rules are now (arsenal maybe?).

heavy weapons are heavy. while equipment weight is now a 'common sense' rule, the average human cannot carry that much weight by himself. the average troll, otoh, is stronger than the strongest human. mayber even stronger than the strongest ork/dwarf. BEFORE he gets augmentation.

in addition to the gun itself, theres the weight of its ammo, plus whatever recoil compensation you need, such as a gyroharness.

kigmatzomat
One problem is recoil and the fact that trolls are made of meat. The energy of heavy weapons tends to scale up pretty fast and while trolls may have the mass to absorb the recoil but without special rigs (gyroharness) they are going to get bruised or broken from the gun's recoil.

A troll should be able to use heavier weapons than a human but probably only a size class different, so an LMG might qualify as an assault rifle. You start popping off large-caliber rounds and the troll's gonna suggest you mount the weapon to a jeep.
Austere Emancipator
If you're going to inject RL logic into this situation, keep in mind that the recoil of an LMG is, in most cases, going to be less punishing than that of an AR.
Shrike30
One of the main limiters of using heavier weapons in a convenient fashion is the weight and ungainliness of the weapon. .50 caliber rifles are a decent example of this... while the recoil on the semiautomatic Barrett's has been described as being like the recoil of a 12-gauge Magnum, the fact that they're 5 feet long and weigh 35 pounds means you aren't going to see many people USING them like a shotgun.

Enter trolls...

Shorten the barrel a little bit, add the kind of furniture more appropriate for a shoulder fired rifle, and keep as much of the recoil compensation in place as you can... voila, .50 caliber battle rifle.

I think one of the reasons we're not seeing this is game balance, honestly. It'd make sense in the world to have guns designed for larger metahumans and cyborgs... they just don't do it.
Raygun
QUOTE (kigmatzomat)
A troll should be able to use heavier weapons than a human but probably only a size class different, so an LMG might qualify as an assault rifle. You start popping off large-caliber rounds and the troll's gonna suggest you mount the weapon to a jeep.

I've worked this out in terms of mass vs. recoil in several previous threads here on Dumpshock. Do a seach for "trolls and guns" by user "Raygun", category "Shadowrun", date "any date". You'll find 'em.

Basically, a .50 BMG rifle platform that a Troll could conceivably walk around with works out to the equivalent of a human with a 5.56x45mm rifle (what most armies issue infantry these days).
TBRMInsanity
I always used the rule that if the weight of the weapon was greater then strength * 2kg then the person can't effectively weild the weapon. This means firing the weapon without any support. You will still have to counter the effects of recoil as per normal.
Class Weight Strength Req
Hold-out pistol >1kg 1
Light pistol 1kg 1
Heavy pistol 1kg 1
SMG 3kg 2
Assult rifle 4kg 2
Sport rifle 5kg 3
Sniper rifle 6kg 3
Shotgun 3kg 2
LMG 6kg 3
MMG 10kg 5
HMG 25kg 13
Autocannon 40kg 20
kigmatzomat
you failed to quote the section where I said:

QUOTE
The energy of heavy weapons tends to scale up pretty fast and while trolls may have the mass to absorb the recoil but without special rigs (gyroharness) they are going to get bruised or broken from the gun's recoil.


This goes back to trolls being made of meat. A ton of meat will absorb the recoil but the point the rifle stock hits the meat is going to be pounded into bloody hamburger once you've burned through a belt of ammo. Trolls' dermal armor helps a bit but I suspect anything short of a rhino will get bruised from the recoil of a .50BMG in autofire.

Give the troll a decent harness that distributes the force over a wide area and you've got something other than a bruised, bloodied, and tenderized troll.

I think the big thing is that if you let a troll treat a weapon as "light" that the uncompensated recoil is not doubled. Which kind of makes sense as the weight of a troll's arm on the forward grip will provide a lot more recoil-resisting inertia than even Arnold Schwarzenneger's. IIRC, shotguns count as "heavy" weapons and I'd have no trouble with trolls considering them "light."
Edward
In SR4 a troll coulduse any gun in one hand that was not required to be vehicle mounted.

We injected some sensibility and caped that at assault rifle but a troll could wield an HMG with no special attachments (although he probably wanted some).

Also in SR3 strength contributed recoil compensation. So your troll might not miss but with double uncompensated recoil on heavy weapons you still wanted the accessories.

It came out a troll could fire 2 3 round bursts with an HMG with gas vent 4 as accurately as a human could fire 2 3 round bursts with an Aries Alfa with gas vent 4.

Of cause the HMG was far more difficult to hide and resulted in a a more immediate and lethal security response.

Edward
Squinky
If you are using rules that give trolls a benefit to firing guns due to their size, shouldn't you use rules that allow them to hide larger weapons due to their size?
NightHaunter
QUOTE (Edward @ Jun 1 2006, 03:56 PM)
*Snip*
Also in SR3 strength contributed recoil compensation. So your troll might not miss but with double uncompensated recoil on heavy weapons you still wanted the accessories.
*Snip*

I think i'll just 'port the table over for now and see how that works for a while.
Report back in a few weeks.

Edit: The SR3 from CC one, not the broken SR2 one from FOF.
Butterblume
QUOTE (Squinky)
If you are using rules that give trolls a benefit to firing guns due to their size, shouldn't you use rules that allow them to hide larger weapons due to their size?

Or rules that trolls are easier to hit?

After all, if trolls get additional boni because they are big, there should be additional mali because they are, well, big...

Shrike30
QUOTE (kigmatzomat)
This goes back to trolls being made of meat. A ton of meat will absorb the recoil but the point the rifle stock hits the meat is going to be pounded into bloody hamburger once you've burned through a belt of ammo. Trolls' dermal armor helps a bit but I suspect anything short of a rhino will get bruised from the recoil of a .50BMG in autofire.

Give the troll a decent harness that distributes the force over a wide area and you've got something other than a bruised, bloodied, and tenderized troll.

Again, the recoil impulse on something like an M82 is described as being similar to that of a 12-gauge magnum shotgun. People fire those all the time. We don't have any real problem in Shadowrun giving human characters fully-automatic shotguns (asides from the fact that they have a hard time hitting anything)... why would there be a serious problem giving a noticeably heavier (and similarly-recoiling) weapon to someone who weighs 3x as much?

I am made of meat. So is my little brother's girlfriend. The fact that I am double her weight (I'm 215 pounds) is one of the reasons that I'm able to run through several boxes of 12-gauge ammunition in a 12-gauge pump shotgun without really noticing, and she's not willing to get knocked around by more than 3-4 shots.

I recall helping my father (a man who grew up shooting, who's shorter than I am but built heavier) sight in a bolt-action .338 Win Mag a few years ago. After 50 rounds at the range, we went home and he took off his shirt to see why his shoulder hurt so much. He had a hematoma forming on his shoulder from the recoil. A few weeks later, he took it out again to test the new recoil pad he'd installed on the (bare wood) butt of the rifle to try and cut down on the abuse he was taking from it, and had absolutely no problems with it.

.50 caliber weapons like the M2HB are intended to be fired from tripods or vehicular mounts. They don't have a lot in the way of ergonomics or recoil handling... they're built to be able to provide a fairly sustained rate of fire and not overheat as much. Given proper furniture, muzzle braking, buffering, and weapon layout, putting together a .50 caliber, select-fire battle rifle for trolls would be quite doable, and I imagine they'd be able to handle them in much the same way that normal humans handle .30 caliber rifles of the same type.
Geekkake
QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Jun 1 2006, 12:41 PM)
QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ Jun 1 2006, 06:13 AM)
This goes back to trolls being made of meat.  A ton of meat will absorb the recoil but the point the rifle stock hits the meat is going to be pounded into bloody hamburger once you've burned through a belt of ammo.  Trolls' dermal armor helps a bit but I suspect anything short of a rhino will get bruised from the recoil of a .50BMG in autofire. 

Give the troll a decent harness that distributes the force over a wide area and you've got something other than a bruised, bloodied, and tenderized troll.

Again, the recoil impulse on something like an M82 is described as being similar to that of a 12-gauge magnum shotgun. People fire those all the time. We don't have any real problem in Shadowrun giving human characters fully-automatic shotguns (asides from the fact that they have a hard time hitting anything)... why would there be a serious problem giving a noticeably heavier (and similarly-recoiling) weapon to someone who weighs 3x as much?

I am made of meat. So is my little brother's girlfriend. The fact that I am double her weight (I'm 215 pounds) is one of the reasons that I'm able to run through several boxes of 12-gauge ammunition in a 12-gauge pump shotgun without really noticing, and she's not willing to get knocked around by more than 3-4 shots.

I recall helping my father (a man who grew up shooting, who's shorter than I am but built heavier) sight in a bolt-action .338 Win Mag a few years ago. After 50 rounds at the range, we went home and he took off his shirt to see why his shoulder hurt so much. He had a hematoma forming on his shoulder from the recoil. A few weeks later, he took it out again to test the new recoil pad he'd installed on the (bare wood) butt of the rifle to try and cut down on the abuse he was taking from it, and had absolutely no problems with it.

.50 caliber weapons like the M2HB are intended to be fired from tripods or vehicular mounts. They don't have a lot in the way of ergonomics or recoil handling... they're built to be able to provide a fairly sustained rate of fire and not overheat as much. Given proper furniture, muzzle braking, buffering, and weapon layout, putting together a .50 caliber, select-fire battle rifle for trolls would be quite doable, and I imagine they'd be able to handle them in much the same way that normal humans handle .30 caliber rifles of the same type.

I think I will design just such a rifle once Arsenal is released. Maybe I'll make a mock-up with the CC rules.
Shrike30
Probably the biggest issue with something like this rifle would be the bulk of the ammo box. All other issues aside, .50 is a large round. I think getting much more than 20 rounds into a magazine would just get kinda silly, in terms of carrying spare magazines around.
Geekkake
QUOTE (Shrike30)
Probably the biggest issue with something like this rifle would be the bulk of the ammo box. All other issues aside, .50 is a large round. I think getting much more than 20 rounds into a magazine would just get kinda silly, in terms of carrying spare magazines around.

I concur. When I was a little kid, my grandfather gave me a box of .50 BMG duds. Maybe 30 fit into the shoebox. That's why God invented belted ammo.
Shrike30
Belted ammunition has it's own issues. It's more difficult to reload a belt feed because you've got to open up a chunk of the weapon and lay the belt into the action in the proper way, then close it and lock it without de-positioning the belt in the process. It hangs up on stuff if you've got it hanging free, makes it easier for dirt and other crap to get into the mechanism (because there's this external conveyor belt running straight into the weapon) and if it gets twisted on a link, the gun will jam on you. While a "belt pouch" could solve some of these problems, it can't handle all of them, and those belts are going to be really heavy, troll or no.

Box mags certainly seem doable, they just aren't going to be really high-capacity devices.
Geekkake
QUOTE (Shrike30)
Belted ammunition has it's own issues. It's more difficult to reload a belt feed because you've got to open up a chunk of the weapon and lay the belt into the action in the proper way, then close it and lock it without de-positioning the belt in the process. It hangs up on stuff if you've got it hanging free, makes it easier for dirt and other crap to get into the mechanism (because there's this external conveyor belt running straight into the weapon) and if it gets twisted on a link, the gun will jam on you. While a "belt pouch" could solve some of these problems, it can't handle all of them, and those belts are going to be really heavy, troll or no.

Box mags certainly seem doable, they just aren't going to be really high-capacity devices.

Hence the Complex Action to load a belted weapon, as opposed to a box mag, which is a Simple. Do you suggest two Complex for belted?
Shrike30
Most of my reasoning was "real life fluff", actually, but that'd be a reasonable way to duplicate it. Changing the belts on a machinegun is in no way doable in (essentially) the same amount of time it takes to eject an empty magazine, slap in a new one, and hit a bolt release. I think it's mostly a matter of having the weapons fit into the combat system easily.
Butterblume
I am trying to remember ...
I'd say it depends wink.gif.

If your second gunner helps you, or you have set up the new belt for easy reloading, it would be one complex action.
Else it would be two (or even longer, if your second belt is in your backpack nyahnyah.gif).
Raygun
QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ Jun 1 2006, 02:13 PM)
you failed to quote the section where I said:
This goes back to trolls being made of meat.  A ton of meat will absorb the recoil but the point the rifle stock hits the meat is going to be pounded into bloody hamburger once you've burned through a belt of ammo. Trolls' dermal armor helps a bit but I suspect anything short of a rhino will get bruised from the recoil of a .50BMG in autofire.

And you obviously failed to read the threads I suggested that you search. The Troll, being a much stronger, more massive animal, would be able to support the use of a weapon that is much heavier than one an average human would be able to effectively wield. The mass of the weapon itself absorbs the "excess" recoil and all is well.

Again, a Troll would likely have very little issue handling a 70-90 pound .50 BMG machine gun as a human handles a 7-9 pound M4/M16.

QUOTE
Give the troll a decent harness that distributes the force over a wide area and you've got something other than a bruised, bloodied, and tenderized troll.

He needs only a weapon that is suited to his stature. Otherwise, he needs smaller hands. Scale up. It's not rocket science.

QUOTE
I think the big thing is that if you let a troll treat a weapon as "light" that the uncompensated recoil is not doubled. Which kind of makes sense as the weight of a troll's arm on the forward grip will provide a lot more recoil-resisting inertia than even Arnold Schwarzenneger's. IIRC, shotguns count as "heavy" weapons and I'd have no trouble with trolls considering them "light."

I would agree, so long as the troll has no issues interfacing with the weapon.
TBRMInsanity
I hate to throw one of my "from personal experience" in here again, BUT

MMG are designed for defencive postions while LMGs are designed for squadron assults. This is why LMGs are lighter then MMGs. This also means that even a troll could not five a MMG from the sholder. They could fire from the hip but there would still be the problem that the weapon is ment to be fired from a tripod. The weapon would be VERY hard to control. HMGs are right out of question though. Most HMGs use 50cal rounds that will give a average human a concusion if fired from the sholder. They need to be mounted into a turret to be effective (like on the top of a Hummer). The only time you will see a metahuman carting one of those around is if they are taking it somewhere to be mounted.
mdynna
-- This has been another "tales from Afghanistan" moment with TBRMInsantiy --
TBRMInsanity
Quiet you!

Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)
MMG are designed for defencive postions while LMGs are designed for squadron assults. This is why LMGs are lighter then MMGs. This also means that even a troll could not five a MMG from the sholder. They could fire from the hip but there would still be the problem that the weapon is ment to be fired from a tripod.

What current weapon counts as an "MMG" in this context, then? I know that can't include GPMGs like M60s, M240s or PKMs, because all of those can be fired from the shoulder just fine (if slightly inaccurately, thanks to poor ergonomics and relatively stiff recoil) by a human. I can't really think of any modern non-heavy machine guns that aren't designed so that they can be fired from the standing unsupported position by a human -- at least by relatively strong guys.

QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)
Most HMGs use 50cal rounds that will give a average human a concusion if fired from the sholder.

Firing an actual HMG without any support might be a bit punishing for a human, though that's difficult to test because current HMGs don't exactly allow a human to fire them from the shoulder (no stock and poor grips make it difficult for a human to carry those 30+kg pieces of steel, let alone fire them accurately without support, even ignoring recoil). Firing .50 BMG rifles from the shoulder is, as others have mentioned in this thread, similar to firing a 12G with rather hot loads. This guy (Realplayer video) doesn't seem "concussed" as he fires the M95 .50 BMG bolt action rifle from the shoulder.
Geekkake
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)
I hate to throw one of my "from personal experience" in here again, BUT

MMG are designed for defencive postions while LMGs are designed for squadron assults. This is why LMGs are lighter then MMGs. This also means that even a troll could not five a MMG from the sholder. They could fire from the hip but there would still be the problem that the weapon is ment to be fired from a tripod. The weapon would be VERY hard to control. HMGs are right out of question though. Most HMGs use 50cal rounds that will give a average human a concusion if fired from the sholder. They need to be mounted into a turret to be effective (like on the top of a Hummer). The only time you will see a metahuman carting one of those around is if they are taking it somewhere to be mounted.

Again, with the mass ratio, I think if the MMG or even HMG were modified for troll-appropriate ergonomics, I see no reason why a troll couldn't use the weapon. Maybe a weapon redesigned from the ground-up as a troll-specific hand-held weapon. So perhaps the canon weapons from the book wouldn't be appropriate (being designed to be fired from a stable platform, meaning not a platform made of meat), as they're bulky and clumsy. But a properly designed weapon should not experience an issue in a suitably large, suitable strong troll.
Shrike30
I've seen video of M60s being fired from the shoulder in support of an assault. The shooter looked to be a big guy (probably 240 pounds or so), but that's really not all that absurd. The E3 variants I've seen of the M60 weigh something like 19 pounds, only a few pounds heavier than the M249 (although obviously, the ammunition is heavier too).

.50 caliber machineguns weigh noticeably upwards of 50 pounds (usually closer to 100 when you start figuring in mounting gear and all that good stuff), before you add on a belt of ammunition. .50 caliber rifles, on the other hand, weigh 25-35 pounds and are frequently fired by infantry and sport shooters without much in the way of reported concussions. The recoil just isn't that bad, because the gun has been designed to be fired by a person holding it, instead of from a tripod or ring mount, and so despite the fact that the gun's weight is a fraction of the weight of a .50 MG, it's recoil is manageable.

Kick us up to 2070, where we have trolls a meter taller than everyone around them and weighing in at 250+ kilos without working at it, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to handle an autofire-capable 50 caliber shoulder weapon, since people 1/2 of their weight and 2/3 their height can handle the semiautomatic ones.
Cain
I have to agree that it's not so much mass, as the ergonomics of the weapon. A weapon designed for a vehicle mount just isn't going to be able to be handled by a troll, no matter how large. If the GM wishes to add enough supports and alterations to make the weapon easily handled without mounts, then there's no reason why a troll shouldn't be able to use it fairly readily.
TBRMInsanity
Where to start:

1. MMG has a minimum of a 7.62mm ammo with the kick of a shotgun when it is fired off of support (ie bipod/tripod)
2. While it is true most HMGs have no stock there are models out there with stocks (used by infantry for better accuracy when firing) Perfect example is the HMG fired from the Hummer in the Green Day video "When September ends"
3. The M60 is a LMG. If actually fires 5.56mm rounds like the M16.

I fully disagree with the classification of the Machine guns in the SR4 manual. Technically the LMGs would include both the White Knight and the Stoner-Ares Machine guns (which is why they have the same damage code). The MMG would include the Ultimax Machine Gun and there is not HMG in the book. An HMG would have a similar damage rate as the Assult cannons and would only fire in FA mode.
Crusher Bob
twirl.gif

M60 in 5.56mm, oh me, oh my. Quartermasters everywheer are breaking out into a cold sweat. They've been issuing the wrong ammo for all these years!
ornot
I don't claim to be an expert in these matters. I'm British and we don't have the love affair with guns that some others do.

I did however, look at Wikipedia which, judging by the number and depth of the firearms entries, is frequently updated by "enthusiasts", and that suggests that the M60 takes a smaller rifle round while the M2 is listed as using a .50 cal round.

My perusal of Wikipedia has also led me to the impression that the increased weight of a machine gun is due to a heavier barrel to slow overheating and allow more continuous rates of fire and increased weight helps reduce recoil, improving accuracy. There is a quite interesting article in Wikipedia about the SA80 and variants, which, despite their many flaws including extra weight, are considered more accurate, although this is likely also due to the long barrel. Oh dear, now I'm beginning to sound like a gun "enthusiast" as well ^^

Getting back to the topic in question, I would permit a Troll to wield a larger weapon than the other metatypes, although as the weapon would have to be custom built I'd work out with the player in advance exactly what it was capable of. Unlikely to be much of a problem in my games, as I've yet to have someone play a Troll gun bunny. I did have a troll adept known as Flash once. He wore red body fitted armour and moved really fast!

Crusher Bob
Remember that all troll firearms will haveto be 'custom built' in the first place, to allow for their larger hands, thicker fingers, etc...

ornot
I more meant if they wanted something with special stats, rather than just buying one of the stock guns with a percentage price adjustment for troll sized ergonomics. Of course that does bring up the point of a troll gaining a concealability increase for hiding regular sized ordnance again...

I'd be inclined to refuse... far too confusing.

<edited for typo>
Crusher Bob
Well, so far there have been no 'special stats' mentioned. Just take the stats for an HMG, pay the troll customization costs and go to town.
ornot
I guess that would be pretty quick and easy...
Meh... in the game I'm running my runners are keeping a low profile, for all that the Orc face wants to break the seal on his AK, the others won't let him.
TBRMInsanity
QUOTE (ornot)
I don't claim to be an expert in these matters. I'm British and we don't have the love affair with guns that some others do.

I did however, look at Wikipedia which, judging by the number and depth of the firearms entries, is frequently updated by "enthusiasts", and that suggests that the M60 takes a smaller rifle round while the M2 is listed as using a .50 cal round.

My perusal of Wikipedia has also led me to the impression that the increased weight of a machine gun is due to a heavier barrel to slow overheating and allow more continuous rates of fire and increased weight helps reduce recoil, improving accuracy. There is a quite interesting article in Wikipedia about the SA80 and variants, which, despite their many flaws including extra weight, are considered more accurate, although this is likely also due to the long barrel. Oh dear, now I'm beginning to sound like a gun "enthusiast" as well ^^

Getting back to the topic in question, I would permit a Troll to wield a larger weapon than the other metatypes, although as the weapon would have to be custom built I'd work out with the player in advance exactly what it was capable of. Unlikely to be much of a problem in my games, as I've yet to have someone play a Troll gun bunny. I did have a troll adept known as Flash once. He wore red body fitted armour and moved really fast!

If you must know I am a parital expert on this matter.

I have been trained on a wide range of firearms (ranging from pistols to MMGs). I know how they fire, I know how they work, I know what is feasible and not when firing these weapons.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)
1. MMG has a minimum of a 7.62mm ammo with the kick of a shotgun when it is fired off of support (ie bipod/tripod)

The traditional description of an MMG does not include any caliber requirement, it just needs to be a machine gun capable of extended firing (generally speaking, a heavy quick-change barrel) and being fired from both tripods or other heavy mounts and from bipods. Nearly all modern MMGs are chambered for 7.62x51mm NATO or 7.62x54mmR, however. These days it is more common to talk about General Purpose Machine Guns, like the M240, which can be used with vehicle mounts (often with some modifications), tripods, bipods, or fired without support.

"Kick of a shotgun" has quite a bit of leeway, of course, but going with a low-end 12G shot load:
437.5 grains at 1200fps with 40 grains of propellant from a 7.25lb Remington 870 = 16.2ft-lbs of recoil energy at 12fps, recoil impulse of 3.04lb/s
Versus standard M80 ball from an M240B GPMG:
146 grains at 2750fps with 46 grains of propellant from a 24.2lb gun = 5.1 foot-pounds of recoil energy at 3.7fps, 2.6lb/s of recoil impulse.
And that's without taking into account the reduction of felt recoil from a gas-operated automatic weapon. Of course the heavy bolt and the rest of the internals going back and forth, as well as the belt being pulled across the weapon, cause the gun to shake a fair bit, but the actual recoil per shot fired should not be anywhere near as bad as that from most shotguns.

QUOTE (TBRM)
2. While it is true most HMGs have no stock there are models out there with stocks (used by infantry for better accuracy when firing)

Such devices are not quite equivalent to shoulder stocks on small arms, and would be useless (or worse) when firing the weapon without support.

QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)
An HMG would have a similar damage rate as the Assult cannons and would only fire in FA mode.

I don't really disagree about the damage code, but why could a HMG not include SA and/or BF firing modes?

QUOTE (ornot)
and that suggests that the M60 takes a smaller rifle round while the M2 is listed as using a .50 cal round.

Absolutely right. M60-series machine guns fire the 7.62x51mm NATO round, which is an order of magnitude weaker (almost literally smile.gif ) than the .50 BMG/12.7x99mm round fired by the M2HB HMG.
ornot
I figured you had at least passing knowledge of these things, based on your previous posts ^^

I find calibre nomenclature to be rather confusing and so many variable calibres have been mentioned in this thread it is hard to keep up.

I did visit the website of the current manufacturers of the M60, U.S Ordnance Inc. (http://www.usord.com/) one can view their FAQ

QUOTE
Q: What type of Ammunition does the M60 Series of machine guns fire?
A: 7.62 x 51 mm NATO ammunition
M61: Armour Piercing used against lightly armored targets.
M62: Tracer used for observation of fire, incendiary effects, signaling, and training.
M80: Full Metal Jacket Ball Against light materiel targets and personnel, and for range training.
M82: Blanks used During training when simulated live fire is desired (A blank firing attachment must be used to fire this ammunition).
M63: Dummy round used during mechanical training.


All very interesting, but fairly moot, as we're discussing the utilisation of weapons made with advanced technology in 2070 by a group of humanoids standing 2 to 3 metres tall and weighing upwards of 200kg
Austere Emancipator
The particular cartridges fired by these weapons may well change, obviously, but assuming humans (or roughly human-sized metahumans) still determine what are called LMGs, MMGs and HMGs, etc.; assuming that wars are still waged in ways similar to how they are waged now; and assuming the basic operating principles of firearms do not change -- all of which appear safe assumptions according to the canon SR world -- the weapons that fill these roles in the 2060s and 2070s will still fire ammunition that is very similar, or even identical.

That FAQ must be old, since it makes no mention of the current 7.62x51mm AP round (the M993). The M61 with its steel penetrator is Ye Olde Skool.
Raygun
I click on this thread again and my fulloshitometer goes haywire. WTF?
Tarantula
TBRM has that effect Raygun. Don't worry, just stick your head in the invisible flashlight thread and you'll forget all about it.
Shrike30
QUOTE (TBRMinsanity)
MMG has a minimum of a 7.62mm ammo with the kick of a shotgun when it is fired off of support (ie bipod/tripod)


While there is a certain amount of subjectivity on the matter of felt recoil, I thought I could share some personal experience here.

My DSA FAL carbine weighs about 10-11 pounds loaded and scoped, noticeably under the weight of most MMGs (about 25 pounds). It's chambered in 7.62x51mm/.308 Winchester, the same round most of us agree is a good benchmark for defining an MMG. My Mossberg M500A is a 12 gauge, and can take 3" shells. While the FAL's recoil is kind of sharp, it doesn't hit nearly as hard as the Mossberg does loading a 3" 00 shell, even when fired with the gas action closed off (which essentially turns the rifle into a straight-pull bolt-action). I doubt that a weapon chambered for the same caliber but weighing twice as much as my FAL is going to kick more.

QUOTE (TBRMinsanity)
The M60 is a LMG.  If actually fires 5.56mm rounds like the M16.


I think you may be confusing the M60 with the M249. The M60 is referred to as a General Purpose Machine Gun (a type of MMG meant to be usable both as a man-carried weapon and as a vehicularly-mounted weapon), and fires 7.62x51mm. The M249 is a Squad Automatic Weapon (a term that almost always indicates an LMG), and is chambered for 5.56x45mm.

QUOTE (TBRMinsanity)
If you must know I am a parital expert on this matter.

I have been trained on a wide range of firearms (ranging from pistols to MMGs). I know how they fire, I know how they work, I know what is feasible and not when firing these weapons.


What's your background? I'm always interested in seeing how different groups are trained and what they're taught.
Lindt
I suddenly want to go fire off a 10 ga. mag and see what it does to my shoulder.

So 1.5 oz @ 1600 fps?

Now to find someone stupid enough to lend me a 10. ga...
Austere Emancipator
You can get 1.25oz slug loads to 1600fps with a 3" 12 gauge, in case you can't find 10 gauges. Any .338 or bigger magnum ought to be comparable from medium weight sporting rifles.

Oh, and I concur with Shrike30: we simply must know. smile.gif
TBRMInsanity
The main reason I say HMGs only fire in FA is because of how 90% of them are designed. Most have a fixed pin receiver group which is great for fully automatic weapons but hard to design for SA or burst fire. Plus with HMGs your most likely shooting at vehicles not people, and as a result you want to hit the enemy vehicle with as much lead as humanly possible.

Anyone who wants to experience what it is like to fire these sorts of weapons should look into joining their countries infantry. Some countries have a reserve/home guard unit that allows them to be part time soldiers in your country's army. The other way is to see if local gun clubs are allowed to test fire these weapons (for LMGs and above I thing only the US allows them on gun ranges).
ornot
I'll pass on joining the military just to play with autofire weapons.

The physical training would probably kill me anyway!
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)
Anyone who wants to experience what it is like to fire these sorts of weapons should look into joining their countries infantry.

Lucky me for not having a real choice in the matter.
ornot
QUOTE
Lucky me for not having a real choice in the matter.


awwww

*pats Austere Emancipator*
Shrike30
Given my country's current foreign policy leanings, I think I'll pass on joining the military, thanks. Getting shipped to another part of the world to have roadside bombs blown up at me in the name of preserving freedom isn't something I feel like getting into.

I've got a lot of respect for the troops running the risk of getting hurt or killed every day for something they believe in, I just think that the people putting them in harm's way have dubious motivations for doing so.
Lindt
Because remember kiddies, theres a differance between supporting your tropps, and supporting your evil ov... erh i mean goverment.
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