Given that LingaSofts will allow you to speak in the language that is coded in them, then there must be versions that allow you to speak in your normal language but insert a code into it that would be only decoded by someone else that had the same coded lingasoft, as per normal steganography. I know that people do this all the time, assigning known items in a shop for instance to what ever misdeed they are planning, but a lingasoft would allow you to easily change and modify the code so even with prolonged survalence the code would be very had to crack. It would also allow a group to discuss things in relative public surrounding (such as a bar)
Changing :
"You know that thing we did that time, I think that the someone that had a hand in it is coming back"
to:
"I know that it may look like my normal watch, but if you look again you'll see that it is a new one, it's blue, and the hands are changable"
What do you think?
Full Version: LingaSofts
This is essentially slang, which is where dialects come from. If you designed customied linguasofts for it, sure. Provided you could get someone else to take the soft and slot it.
good idea. in theory. in practice however, anyone who wants actual use of this kind of thing is going to either have to code it themselves, or buy it from a shadow-source and hope that not too many others use their version.
It would probably be easier in practice to grab a copy of something very obscure linguisticaly, possibly a dead language, to hold the conversation in.
the downside of all this, is your going to have trouble including the mages in the conversation
It would probably be easier in practice to grab a copy of something very obscure linguisticaly, possibly a dead language, to hold the conversation in.
the downside of all this, is your going to have trouble including the mages in the conversation
I was thinking more than just a dialect, but a full steganographic system that would be resistant to both statistical and lingistic analysis.
You want a linguasoft for Thieves' Cant. Fun idea.
Sure, it could provide an encryption rating for your conversations. But really, that's all it is. You can just as easily hold encrypted conversations using wireless. A neat trick would be to combine crypticsoft speech and encrypted transmissions, then require one have both parts of the message to understand it. Or just use one as the decoy. Obviously distribution of the crypticsofts is the hard part.
Hmm, this brings up the idea of talking in other completely crazy coded languages, provided 2 peple have the same linguasoft.
You could talk in Binary, Hexadecimal, Morse or an entirely made up language (like twins sometimes do as children). Great for covert communication, if sometimes a bit slow (binary would take for ever!)
You could talk in Binary, Hexadecimal, Morse or an entirely made up language (like twins sometimes do as children). Great for covert communication, if sometimes a bit slow (binary would take for ever!)
011110010110010101110011001000000110100101110100001000000111011101101111011101010110110001100100
01001001 01101101 01100001 01100111 01101001 01101110 01100101 00100000 01101001 01110100 00100000 01110111 01101001 01110100 01101000 00100000 01100001 00100000 01110011 01101111 01110101 01110100 01101000 01100101 01110010 01101110 00100000 01100100 01110010 01100001 01110111 01101100
| QUOTE (Teulisch @ Jun 1 2006, 02:59 PM) |
| the downside of all this, is your going to have trouble including the mages in the conversation |
Fortunately Mages can access linguasofts via trodes and a commlink.
EDIT: And a sim module.
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| 01001001 01101101 01100001 01100111 01101001 01101110 01100101 00100000 01101001 01110100 00100000 01110111 01101001 01110100 01101000 00100000 01100001 00100000 01110011 01101111 01110101 01110100 01101000 01100101 01110010 01101110 00100000 01100100 01110010 01100001 01110111 01101100 |
I wondered why it was junk text till I found the bug in my script which inverted the bits 
OMG, in the mirror that spells "NERPS".
| QUOTE (vipox) |
| Given that LingaSofts will allow you to speak in the language that is coded in them, then there must be versions that allow you to speak in your normal language but insert a code into it that would be only decoded by someone else that had the same coded lingasoft, as per normal steganography. I know that people do this all the time, assigning known items in a shop for instance to what ever misdeed they are planning, but a lingasoft would allow you to easily change and modify the code so even with prolonged survalence the code would be very had to crack. It would also allow a group to discuss things in relative public surrounding (such as a bar) |
Heh. I use Kinesics for something similar so that they can communicate without anyone really knowing that they're discussing a run and not the weather. Well, another social adept might figure out something is off, but that's about it without constant study.
Sounds alot like you just need an active skill called "Inuendo" like in D&D.
CP2020 had linguasofts that consisted of the language you spoke randomized... each word in the language was replaced by a random other word from the dictionary. Sounds like you're speaking gibberish, as even the sentence structures don't make sense. But to one of the other guys in your group who also had that soft chipped, you were speaking completely intelligibly.
These were randomized at purchase, so each set of chips was unique (or at least as unique as you can get with 30k+ random pairings). Pretty cool idea.
These were randomized at purchase, so each set of chips was unique (or at least as unique as you can get with 30k+ random pairings). Pretty cool idea.
hmm, anyone seen the newish children of dune miniseries?
in a scene there, two ladys have a coversation, but at the same time doing sign language about a totaly diffrent topic
confusing as hell when the text have nothing to do with whats spoken
in a scene there, two ladys have a coversation, but at the same time doing sign language about a totaly diffrent topic
confusing as hell when the text have nothing to do with whats spoken
It would be a simple (if time consuming) procedure to write a program that would churn out artificial languages or coded slang at the push of a button. They could be decrypted as any other form of encryption but you would need a significant sample of conversation to try.
The bene geserat sign language. A butiful concept.
You threw me for awhile, that seen was I think in the book children of dune, wich is not one of the new dune books (being the 3rd buy Frank Herbert, he got to 6 before dying and his sun has done 7 more which would be called resent)
I’m assuming you are referring to the video miniseries.
There was only one significant problem with that series, the freemen had unmarked faces. But the still-suit nose plugs where still shown. Even the beautiful Chani and the children themselves should have had calluses from using them.
The bene geserat sign language. A butiful concept.
You threw me for awhile, that seen was I think in the book children of dune, wich is not one of the new dune books (being the 3rd buy Frank Herbert, he got to 6 before dying and his sun has done 7 more which would be called resent)
I’m assuming you are referring to the video miniseries.
There was only one significant problem with that series, the freemen had unmarked faces. But the still-suit nose plugs where still shown. Even the beautiful Chani and the children themselves should have had calluses from using them.
Ahh... secret languages. 
| QUOTE (Fugue) |
In the Tir, as in other parts of the world, the word had taken on a different meaning from the musical term from which it had come. An adept in conversational fugue was an expert in, literally, double-talk. When a fugue master spoke, it would mean something else entirely. Like a game of Go, fugue could be as complex as the speaker's ability allowed. The simplest of phrases could carry worlds of meaning, and a fugue player used not only words, but inflection, tone, body language and gestures to enhance his- play. Two experts ostensibly talking about the weather could well be carrying on a conversation about particle physics—not that anybody of lesser ability in the art could understand them. Fugue had arisen partially in response to the technological advances in lie-detection gear. When multi-channel stress analyzers and electrophy equipment were brought to bear, it was nearly impossible- to prevaricate and not, be detected. Since such machineries could be utilized without the subject's- knowledge in many cases,, those- in the public eye had learned to speak a thousand shading, of the truth.. Even, a simple- yes-or-no question might be fielded, as one wished by a. skillful rendering of strict truth. "Do-you know, where this, wanted criminal is?" could be answered negatively-, by using precise thought patterns: "No," and. the unspoken tag line, "I don't know where he is at this moment." Such questions required more precision on the part of the questioner: "Did you know where he was at seven hundred hours local time this morning?" to be countered by, "No." Not exactly. I knew about where, but you didn't ask that… |
Good ole Matador series by Steve Perry.
Damn right!
One of the best damn sci-fi series evah!
When I first discovered SR I imported alot of the stuff from the series... the Siblings, Fugue, etc.
One of the best damn sci-fi series evah!
When I first discovered SR I imported alot of the stuff from the series... the Siblings, Fugue, etc.
I had a rule thought about coded linguasoft languages. A listener would roll Intuition + "Original Language" against a Threshold of the soft's Rating in an extended test (say 5 minute interval). Success means the listener knows a code is in use, with net successes giving him or her a better idea of what the "gist" is. ?
| QUOTE (Glayvin34) |
 Binary Translator Here's a link for anyone that wants/needs to translate. |
That is cool
The problem with a simple 'word replacement' coded linguasoft is that most words are used over and over again. Once a listener gets over the nonsense factor, some frequency analysis tool should give you a lot of the substitutions. How many depends on the amount of recorded conversation, of course.
A 'completely obfuscated' linguasoft which translates your speach into 'legal english' would require much more effort, but probably still be well within the abilities of SR software.
However a linguasoft able to encode your speach as legal english and have in make sense in the context of the fabricated converstaion that you are having with other coded linguasoft users is probably too much effort.
A 'completely obfuscated' linguasoft which translates your speach into 'legal english' would require much more effort, but probably still be well within the abilities of SR software.
However a linguasoft able to encode your speach as legal english and have in make sense in the context of the fabricated converstaion that you are having with other coded linguasoft users is probably too much effort.
| QUOTE (Shrike30) |
| CP2020 had linguasofts that consisted of the language you spoke randomized... each word in the language was replaced by a random other word from the dictionary. Sounds like you're speaking gibberish, as even the sentence structures don't make sense. But to one of the other guys in your group who also had that soft chipped, you were speaking completely intelligibly. These were randomized at purchase, so each set of chips was unique (or at least as unique as you can get with 30k+ random pairings). Pretty cool idea. |
I like this idea best, it's original and creative.
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| The problem with a simple 'word replacement' coded linguasoft is that most words are used over and over again. Once a listener gets over the nonsense factor, some frequency analysis tool should give you a lot of the substitutions. How many depends on the amount of recorded conversation, of course. |
That's very true. However, that kind of analysis usually requires thousands of sentences worth of communication to begin building a good database of translated words... something most people aren't going to get over the period of time you spend breaking into their research lab and stealing their prototype.
Worst comes to worst, you go home after the run, smash all the chips, fire up your computer, and re-generate a new randomized language chip for everyone.
hmm, i wonder if i can get a leet-speak linguasoft...
I think that's a "dialect" of English, in the rules.
| QUOTE (Glayvin34) | ||
|
01000011 01101111 01110101 01101100 01100100 00100000 01100010 01101001 01101110 01100001 01110010 01111001 00100000 01101000 01100001 01101110 01100100 01101100 01100101 00100000 01100001 00100000 01010011 01101000 01100001 01110100 01101110 01100101 01110010 00100000 01110100 01111001 01110000 01100101 00100000 01100011 01100001 01100100 01100101 01101110 01100011 01100101 00111111
| QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Jun 2 2006, 09:46 PM) |
| I think that's a "dialect" of English, in the rules. |
more like a internet dialect (and mostly a written one at that). i have seen it infest local speak, and this isnt a english-native contry.
alltho, somtimes i do wonder if we are about to become the 51. US state. after all, there are a lot of oil around here, and no unstable politics. atleast not to the degree that russia or the middle-east nations can be considerd unstable.
hang on, maybe i should redesignate it to CS-speak, and it seems to have a spoken version as well as a written. based mostly on spoken forms of old irc stuff like "lol".
jepp, that right. i have heard kid say that out loud...
im to young to feel old, yet thats what i do...
| QUOTE (Voran) | ||||
01000011 01101111 01110101 01101100 01100100 00100000 01100010 01101001 01101110 01100001 01110010 01111001 00100000 01101000 01100001 01101110 01100100 01101100 01100101 00100000 01100001 00100000 01010011 01101000 01100001 01110100 01101110 01100101 01110010 00100000 01110100 01111001 01110000 01100101 00100000 01100011 01100001 01100100 01100101 01101110 01100011 01100101 00111111 |
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) | ||
more like a internet dialect (and mostly a written one at that). i have seen it infest local speak, and this isnt a english-native contry. |
Uh, no, seriously... IIRC, l33t is listed as a dialect of English in the SR4 rulebook.
hmm, your right. must have supressed that
Most words would not require 'thousands of sentences' to decode. Sentence structure still is relevant, and even if the sentence is scrambled as well as decoded, the words are still in the sentence. You'll notice prepositions come up and are reused regularly. We can also get some information from the context. If they're talking using the code a lot, then go and do a run and steal an item, we can be pretty sure information about the run was discussed and can begin looking for codewords. Heck, if they discuss a woman at a bar or a sports game, the availability of context makes the code tremendously easier to begin breaking.
Words like:
| QUOTE |
| and, or, the, a, to |
would be relatively easy to pick out, but I don't think the average shadowrun has enough words exchanged between the party members, even with context, for people to figure out more than the most obvious of words through repetition.
Besides, if the chip was programmed well, you could substitute 10, 20, or 50 different words for "and", having one selected at random every time. That'd screw with sentence structure a little bit...
Besides, if the chip was programmed well, you could substitute 10, 20, or 50 different words for "and", having one selected at random every time. That'd screw with sentence structure a little bit...
I was thinking something more advanced than word replacement. It could be just one word per sentence has any meaning in the code, and another word in the previous sentence tells you which. Or such.
| QUOTE (Glayvin34) |
01000011 01101111 01110101 01101100 01100100 00100000 01100010 01101001 01101110 01100001 01110010 01111001 00100000 01101000 01100001 01101110 01100100 01101100 01100101 00100000 01100001 00100000 01010011 01101000 01100001 01110100 01101110 01100101 01110010 00100000 01110100 01111001 01110000 01100101 00100000 01100011 01100001 01100100 01100101 01101110 01100011 01100101 00111111 I dare you to translate Rocket Man |
Ok here's a way to visuall translate this:
[ Spoiler ]
"Could Binary Handle A Shatner Type Cadence?"
Yes...yes it can.
| QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jun 1 2006, 05:06 PM) |
| hmm, anyone seen the newish children of dune miniseries? in a scene there, two ladys have a coversation, but at the same time doing sign language about a totaly diffrent topic |
I have no idea what you're talking about, and have never even thought of using it as a reference.
The problem with only one word per sentence is that it slows down communication.
Personally I would want something along the lines of how Artradies battle language was described, effectively 3 artificial languages one with 2 dialects.
There was a spoken language, a sign language (witch could be used openly or with small gestures that might be overlooked if you spoke briefly) and a touch language intended for close contact communication.
The language was deliberately designed to be hard to interpret from observation, lacking many of the niceties of civilized conversation and encouraging statements to be kept short.
Another way to make a artificial language hard to pick up would be a changing encryption key. In order to avoid synchronization problems you would have 2 active languages at time, every 30 seconds the older language is replaced buy a new one generated from a key. Before the run you would load all team member COM links with a key directory containing enough keys to last for a week and synchronies there clocks. This would however require a program to be running on a comlink with each team member to produce the languages. The rating of the program would be the complexity of the language, effectively the linguesoft rating. Also if the enemy gets one of your comlinks they will have your language.
Edward
Personally I would want something along the lines of how Artradies battle language was described, effectively 3 artificial languages one with 2 dialects.
There was a spoken language, a sign language (witch could be used openly or with small gestures that might be overlooked if you spoke briefly) and a touch language intended for close contact communication.
The language was deliberately designed to be hard to interpret from observation, lacking many of the niceties of civilized conversation and encouraging statements to be kept short.
Another way to make a artificial language hard to pick up would be a changing encryption key. In order to avoid synchronization problems you would have 2 active languages at time, every 30 seconds the older language is replaced buy a new one generated from a key. Before the run you would load all team member COM links with a key directory containing enough keys to last for a week and synchronies there clocks. This would however require a program to be running on a comlink with each team member to produce the languages. The rating of the program would be the complexity of the language, effectively the linguesoft rating. Also if the enemy gets one of your comlinks they will have your language.
Edward
This is a standard encryption problem, except you're making it less granular by replacing letters with words (that's a bad thing). In general, the slower the encryption/decryption is, the harder it is to decode. But ultimately, there really isn't much of a reason to use this method of encryption over some bastardization of triple DES or the like.
01010100 01101000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01100110 01101001 01101110 01100101 01110011 01110100 00100000 01110111 01100001 01111001 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01110101 01110011 01100101 00100000 01100001 00100000 01001100 01101001 01101110 01100111 01110101 01100001 01110011 01101111 01100110 01110100 00100000 01001001 00100000 01101000 01100001 01110110 01100101 00100000 01100101 01110110 01100101 01110010 00100000 01101000 01100101 01100001 01110010 01100100 00100000 01101111 01100110 00100000 01101111 01110010 00100000 01110011 01100101 01100101 01101110 00101110 00001101 00001010 01001101 01111001 00100000 01100011 01101111 01101101 01110000 01101100 01101001 01101101 01100101 01101110 01110100 01110011 00100000 01100100 01100101 01100001 01110010 00100000 01100010 01101111 01111001 00101110
[ Spoiler ]
In the book it says you need a datajack to use lang/skillsofts.
So my question is: Can you only use ONE at a time?
So my question is: Can you only use ONE at a time?
| QUOTE (SL James) | ||
I have no idea what you're talking about, and have never even thought of using it as a reference. |
basicly they where holding one conversation by speaking, and one by doing sign language, at the same time...
| QUOTE (DarkCrisis @ Jun 3 2006, 11:22 AM) |
| In the book it says you need a datajack to use lang/skillsofts. So my question is: Can you only use ONE at a time? |
No, it mentions the limit on skillwires being the sum of their ratings up to twice the rating of the skillwires. I assume the limit on the number of linguasofts at one time is limited to something like Logic rating. The datajack is required for the softlink, not as a chipjack slot.
| QUOTE |
| The problem with only one word per sentence is that it slows down communication. |
To a degree, but you can make the code word represent entire sentences in the decrypted language.
The rating of the skillwires is only a limit for active skill skillsofts. Knowsofts, datasofts and linguasofts just require a chipjack or headware memory.
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) | ||||
basicly they where holding one conversation by speaking, and one by doing sign language, at the same time... |
I should have made a bigger smiley.
ugh, i wasnt sure. sorry about that...
He does that.
See, I was holding two conversations simultaneously, and...
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