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PenAgain
I was (and still am) very excited about Shadows of Latin America. Has there been any word about when Holostreets is going to be up and running?

Any book that updates Aztlan is a book that I *need*.

I signed up for the Holostreets e-mail update list ages ago, but nothing has ever come of it, so I was just wondering... most of you are a bit more in the loop than me.

--PenAgain
stevebugge
I'm in the same spot you are, no news at all.
Demonseed Elite
I wish I could update you on it, but I don't really know anything to tell you.
eidolon
Apologies if this is common knowledge, but is it pretty safe to assume that by now, SoLA is going to be SR4 specific?
Canis
Actually I was under the impression that it was 3rd Ed. I believe it was supposed to have been released before 4th ed came out, and I donít think their re-writing it, just releasing it for free because itís out of date. But I might be remembering it completely wrong. I hope they release it soon, I want to read this book.
HMHVV Hunter
I heard they were releasing it as PDF only. Personally, I think that's a pain in the ass - not everybody has the time to go to Kinko's and print out a copy, bind it, etc.

They oughta just release it in bookstores for a cheaper price - say, $10?
eidolon
It's most definitely PDF only. That was official a long time ago. While I agree on PDFs sucking in comparison to books, I don't think we're likely to get our way on this one.
Adam
QUOTE (HMHVV Hunter)
They oughta just release it in bookstores for a cheaper price - say, $10?

Negative profit margin should generally be avoided by any for-profit venture.
MITJA3000+
QUOTE (eidolon)
While I agree on PDFs sucking in comparison to books, I don't think we're likely to get our way on this one.

I'd be very happy if we ever did get even the pdf...
Demonseed Elite
Personally, I'd like to just add it to the product schedule and update it for SR4 somewhere down the line (ala Running Wild). Though it's not something that could really be done now, because most of the writers who worked on SoLA are swamped on other projects (I know myself, Peter, and JWK have been plenty busy) and some of the authors for the smaller sections might be hard to track down. If we couldn't get them to update their sections, then the rest of us would be taking on more work.

But that's just what I'd like to do, and it's not really my call. wink.gif
NightmareX
QUOTE (Adam)
Negative profit margin should generally be avoided by any for-profit venture.

Definitely. I'd be happy to pay full price even for an outdated 3rd edition version of SoLA.
HMHVV Hunter
QUOTE (NightmareX)
QUOTE (Adam)
Negative profit margin should generally be avoided by any for-profit venture.

Definitely. I'd be happy to pay full price even for an outdated 3rd edition version of SoLA.

Yeah, so would I, but my point is how many OTHER people would be? My guess is not so many, which is why I suggested the bargain basement price.
Brahm
I would. But agreed that it might be a more limited market. Which is at least part of the reason why they are choosing a distribution model to support the pricing. So they can still get it out to the people that want the content without losing money on distribution.
Brahm
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
Personally, I'd like to just add it to the product schedule and update it for SR4 somewhere down the line (ala Running Wild). Though it's not something that could really be done now, because most of the writers who worked on SoLA are swamped on other projects (I know myself, Peter, and JWK have been plenty busy) and some of the authors for the smaller sections might be hard to track down. If we couldn't get them to update their sections, then the rest of us would be taking on more work.

How much really needs updating? Are you talking only SR3 to SR4 dice mechanics, or also adding and updating the info to fill the timeline from 2064-2069?
JongWK
QUOTE
Personally, I'd like to just add it to the product schedule and update it for SR4 somewhere down the line (ala Running Wild). Though it's not something that could really be done now, because most of the writers who worked on SoLA are swamped on other projects (I know myself, Peter, and JWK have been plenty busy) and some of the authors for the smaller sections might be hard to track down. If we couldn't get them to update their sections, then the rest of us would be taking on more work.

But that's just what I'd like to do, and it's not really my call.  wink.gif


I'd also love to update it at some point.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (Brahm)
How much really needs updating? Are you talking only SR3 to SR4 dice mechanics, or also adding and updating the info to fill the timeline from 2064-2069?

Dice mechanics, yes, but I'm also talking about updating the setting material for a 2070 setting. Which wouldn't be a huge amount of work, really, and I wrote two of the larger chapters for SoLA (Aztlan and the Carib League). 90% of what I wrote for each of those hasn't changed in the five year gap.
Adam
QUOTE (HMHVV Hunter)
Yeah, so would I, but my point is how many OTHER people would be? My guess is not so many, which is why I suggested the bargain basement price.

When a book is expected to sell fewer copies [and thus printed in a less quantity], the price actually has to go *up*, as the fixed costs of a book -- writers, layout guys, artists, etc -- do not go down.
Witness
Frankly I'd love to just to see something up on Holostreets.
SoLA would be great, but.. well anything would do at this point!
eidolon
Please put it out for SR3 first. Heck, it already exists, right? I mean, even if you wanted to update it and release it for SR4, you could dump the PDF for 3e on us.

(You being a non-specific reference to "the beings at large that release the SR products".)
SL James
QUOTE (Adam)
QUOTE (HMHVV Hunter @ Jun 7 2006, 10:58 AM)
Yeah, so would I, but my point is how many OTHER people would be?  My guess is not so many, which is why I suggested the bargain basement price.

When a book is expected to sell fewer copies [and thus printed in a less quantity], the price actually has to go *up*, as the fixed costs of a book -- writers, layout guys, artists, etc -- do not go down.

Bah. You and your microeconomic theory.
NightmareX
QUOTE (Adam)
When a book is expected to sell fewer copies [and thus printed in a less quantity], the price actually has to go *up*, as the fixed costs of a book -- writers, layout guys, artists, etc -- do not go down.

That's fine. I'd pay $40-45 bucks for it, even if it is 3rd edition. Hell, I just went out and bought a hard copy of the 4th edition bible that I'll probably never really use and probably only look at once or twice in my life. I bought the PDF when it came out, and PDFs are far more useful to my needs, but I still wanted the book.

As for updating SoLA, why bother until it's necessary? Unless there's a ton of mechanics that we need to use the supplement in SR4 (doubtful), individual GMs can always update the material as they see fit when necessary. SoLA is a setting book, and setting books are all about fleshing out areas and inspiring ideas, two things that work the same regardless of what edition the book is written for.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (NightmareX)
That's fine. I'd pay $40-45 bucks for it, even if it is 3rd edition. Hell, I just went out and bought a hard copy of the 4th edition bible that I'll probably never really use and probably only look at once or twice in my life. I bought the PDF when it came out, and PDFs are far more useful to my needs, but I still wanted the book.

As for updating SoLA, why bother until it's necessary? Unless there's a ton of mechanics that we need to use the supplement in SR4 (doubtful), individual GMs can always update the material as they see fit when necessary. SoLA is a setting book, and setting books are all about fleshing out areas and inspiring ideas, two things that work the same regardless of what edition the book is written for.

I think it'd be unwise to release SoLA for $40. As a writer, I want people to actually get a chance to read what I wrote, preferably as many people as possible. The best way to accomplish that would be to either toss it out there for free (in which case we probably wouldn't update it, since our writing time is better used elsewhere) or make it completely relevent to the current game line and release it at a standard price. I know there are people out there who would buy it if it were $40, or $50, or whatever, but I want to get it to a lot of people, not just those few people.

On updating SoLA: The vast majority of the book is setting material. While there are definitely mechanics in there that no longer make a whole lot of sense with SR4's mechanics, I also think it would be important to update the setting material too. There's been a five year progression in the timeline and many important events happened in that period (wireless AR being one major thing). Just to toss out one example: the material I wrote for the Aztlan chapter on San Diego would need to be updated, since it has been hit with a major earthquake and flooded since then. What I wrote made sense for 2064 San Diego, but doesn't accurately reflect 2070 San Diego.
BookWyrm
Having a rarity like SoLA as a PDF is a good thing, but I want it NOW. Reading location books was one of the great things about SR3.
eidolon
QUOTE (BookWyrm)
Reading location books was is one of the great things about SR3.


Corrected. Five cents please. biggrin.gif

So what is the hold up? (Not asked in a whiny "come on guyyyys" voice, just a "I wonder" sort of thing. Okay, maybe a little whiny. wink.gif)

Synner
Believe us guys, nobody would like to see this one published more than the writers. There's a lot of nice stuff in the book, and like SoA and SoE, it isn't just the obvious places that get have all the cool surprises.
Ancient History
Indeedy do.
SL James
Effing Holostreets. What's the damn holdup?
eidolon
So the writers have no idea why it's in limbo, either? Good grief. Of all people, I'm amazed they don't at least tell you guys.
SL James
Some of them didn't even know about SR4 until it was announced last March, so I hardly find this surprising.
Demonseed Elite
We just don't know the status of Holostreets.
SL James
How about "Completely Effed?"
Synner
QUOTE (eidolon @ Jun 9 2006, 06:13 AM)
So the writers have no idea why it's in limbo, either?  Good grief.  Of all people, I'm amazed they don't at least tell you guys.

This isn't exactly the case. The writers have been informed of the situation of SoLA, but there's precious little else that we (or FanPro) can do at this point. There were reasons why FanPro could not release a pdf only version of the book and Holostreets presented a means to make it available to the fans. Unfortunately Holostreets seems to have slipped into limbo for the time being, but rest assured FanPro has not forgotten SoLA.
Valentinew
Any chance we might see it by (or even at) GenCon?
Platinum
Two chances, slim and none.
Witness
Bah- why should GenCon get everything first!
BookWyrm
Just release it as a free PDF already!
Witness
QUOTE (Synner)
there's precious little else that we (or FanPro) can do at this point

I do hope this hasn't been caused by a rift between Fanpro and Wizkids, or anything like that.
the_dunner
QUOTE (Witness)
I do hope this hasn't been caused by a rift between Fanpro and Wizkids, or anything like that.

Holostreets/Battlecorps isn't owned by Wizkids. It's owned by In Media Res productions, who license a different set of rights to CBT and SR than FanPro. As they're a separate company from FanPro, it's not surprising that FanPro freelancers wouldn't be kept up to date on IMR's internal proceedings.

Looking at the Battlecorps web site, it's worth noting that on their contact us page, they're looking for a redhat/PHP developer/web admin. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the delay in rolling out holostreets is tied in some way to a lack of manpower.
Witness
Thanks for the informed guess- I'm convinced. But what are the "reasons why FanPro could not release a pdf only version of the book"? Sheer economics, if I had to guess. Would I be right in saying that pdf demand isn't yet high enough to make it a profitable mode of distribution, even with the significantly reduced overheads?
Witness
And one other thing-- who the hell farmed out all the ED/SR rights like this? It seems like an absolute mess. FASA/Microsoft, Wizkids, Fanpro, In Media Res, Red Brick, Living Room Games... sheesh!
the_dunner
QUOTE (Witness)
But what are the "reasons why FanPro could not release a pdf only version of the book"?

Well, since it was announced that the book would be published by Holostreets, IMR probably bought at least the electronic rights to it. (Alternatively, there might be a gentleman's agreement between FanPro and IMR.) If that's the case, then FanPro wouldn't be able to release a PDF. Mind you, as 4th edition has now been out for 9 months, I can only imagine that as interest wains in a 3rd edition product, so would the value of that agreement. So for the sake of FanPro and the freelancers who worked on it, I sincerely hope that IMR paid in advance.

QUOTE
who the hell farmed out all the ED/SR rights like this?

When FASA was still active, they sold the FASA Interactive subunit (independent company?) to Microsoft. That included all electronic gaming rights to all of their properties. My understanding is that those rights aren't licensed with a recurring fee. Instead, they are wholy owned by FASA Interactie/Microsoft. As a consequence of that, my understanding is that no one from the old FASA (or WizKids, or FanPro, or any of the other companies involved) would need to approve/sign off on/get a sneak preview on any of the products that Microsoft releases. Therefore, they're able to diverge from the pre-existing lines in anyway that they'd want to. (Thus, the video game that bears little semblance to the existing products.)

When FASA stopped production, all rights for Battletech, Crimson Skies, and Shadowrun (save the electronic gaming ones mentioned earlier) went to WizKids (along with several of the key employees of FASA.) FanPro, formerly a German language only licensee of FASA, licensed the Pen and Paper gaming rights for CBT and SR, because WizKids had no interest in supporting a P&P RPG.

Void publishing rights reverted to the game's creator.

Earthdawn remained with FASA. I'm guessing that's because the game line was defunct at the time. Both Living Room Games and Red Brick Games purchased non-exclusive licenses from FASA. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if FASA would enthusiastically sell another non-exclusive pen and paper license if somebody else ponied up the dough.

I've no idea what happened with Renegade Legion, Crucible, or Traveller products that FASA produced. I'm reasonably certain that the Star Trek, Masters of the Universe, Doctor Who and Battlestar Galactica rights reverted to the actual owners of those IPs long before FASA stopped production.
Adam
QUOTE (Witness)
Bah- why should GenCon get everything first!

Attending a convention is expensive for a game company, and having new products at it helps recoup those expenses, as direct sales generate a lot more profit than sales to distributors/retail stores.
SL James
QUOTE (the_dunner @ Jun 10 2006, 07:47 PM)
Looking at the Battlecorps web site, it's worth noting that on their contact us page, they're looking for a redhat/PHP developer/web admin.  It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the delay in rolling out holostreets is tied in some way to a lack of manpower.

Awesome. Because the Holostreets deal was only announced at Origins 2005 a year ago.
Grinder
Maybe the pay is too low? wink.gif

@FASA licences: Games-In (a small german company) has the licence to translate all FASA-ED-books into german and to develop new ones. So one more to add. biggrin.gif
Witness
QUOTE (the_dunner @ Jun 10 2006, 09:23 PM)
When FASA was still active, they sold the FASA Interactive subunit (independent company?) to Microsoft...

Thanks the_dunner. Actually I was aware of most of this. My question (primarily in jest) was more along the line of 'which individual made these decisions- they deserve a slap!'

I envision a Thomas Roxborough-alike corporate raider, floating in a vat, cackling and gurgling as he uses his insane wealth and ruthless Gordon Gecko skills to acquire the rights to ED & SR- then splits them up and sells them off piecemeal because they're worth more as individual scrap than they are as a coherent whole. wink.gif
Lazerface
Maybe it's delayed until just before the Shadowrun videogame comes out (it's set in Brazil donchaknow). This way they can write it up so that Santos is nuked off the map just to spite Microsoft.
Witness
Now that would make me smile.
Adam
QUOTE (Witness)
Thanks the_dunner. Actually I was aware of most of this. My question (primarily in jest) was more along the line of 'which individual made these decisions- they deserve a slap!'

No one person made those decisions -- they happened over a period of years. Really, aside from Microsoft getting all the computer game rights as opposed to the license, there's nothing *that* strange in the licensing situation.

And a slight correction to dunner's post; Crimson Skies is actually owned by Microsoft as well; WizKids did the clix game under some sort of licensing agreement with them.
Witness
Aye well if it's not getting in the way or causing any problems then I guess it doesn't matter.
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