I see alot of posts here that people are unaware of the nerf this power received in SR4.

This power now adds directly to your skill rating, which is limited by your skill rating max. Ergo, you can no longer have any more than half your skill level in this power.

I think most folks are aware of that. The skill isn't really nerfed considering that everyone else is constrained by the same cap, and the only other option is to recieve a reflex recorder (only +1 dice).

Basically the cap and new skill system makes improved skills one of the adepts leading points.

Well, it's listed that way in my book, 2nd printing.

Didn't knew that. Outstanding .

the reflex recorder, according to the errata, adds to the skills rating. I can see this as a nice way to get a skill to 7 without needing aptitude. but it does raise questions about increasing skill thats been modified in this way. dunno if the recorder can hit skill 8.

adepts, are capped at 'base rating x1.5', which means skill 6 can get +3 dice for a total of 9. skill 4 can get +2 for a total of 6. so an adept can ALWAYS have more skill than a non-adpet can if thats what they focus in. (skill 10, +2 specialty, +max racial attribute). you could have a human adept with 20+ dice on any given test before modifiers.

actually, imo, the power that really is much more unreasonable is attribute boost. Give it to a dwarf orc or troll who use their body plus will power to resist a dv equal to the level of the power, and they can max out any physical stat(s) they want pretty easily and usually long enough to last through a whole combat.
I had a dwarf with this in r and a and he was routinely getting 3 more in each stat for 6 turns. He only had the power at 2 so he'd make the drain everytime.

actually, if i'm not mistaken it's a simple action to use the attribute boost power.

so it's actually 2 IPs to boost all 4 physical attributes. either way, the combat could actually even be over, or at the very least mostly over, by that time... it's great for battles you're prepared for, not so great for if you get surprised.

yeah it only takes a simple action to activate, and the raw doesn't state that it's limited by the level of the power, just that you roll dice equal to the level of the power + magic. If you were going to limit it the fairest thing to do would be to limit it to magic IMO.
Even in surprise situations, it's good since you get an IP (hence 2 stats you can bump) even if you go dead last in the init order.
Of course it works even better if you're the one trying to surprise someone.

Thats why you only get one boosted attribute (most common choice would be agility) at rating one. With Magic 6 and one level of boost, you will probably at least get 2 hits by using your first simple action, then you still get to shoot. It seems like it could get out of hand, or need a capping houserule, but then again adepts don't get cheap permanent attribute boosts like Sammys do.

Well, yeah... Muscle Toner 3 + Muscle Augmentation 3 will get both Strength and Agility from 6 to 9 at an Essence cost of 1.2 total, or 0.6 if you have more cyberware than bioware. Granted, you cannot increase Essence the way you can increase Magic, but these are permanent increases, as you mentioned. You get the maximum augmented rating 100% of the time and you never need to spend end to make sure you get the full boost or to make sure that the boost will last long enough to enable you to do what you need to do. The Attribute Boost power will never enable the adept to get stronger or more agile than the sammy - only to match him very temporarily. As such, I wouldn't say that the power is a game-breaker.

I wish the drain was more in line with the extra boost an additional level of the power provides, but at the same time, an extra three dice mean one more hit on average (without Edge), which means an extra two combat turns of boost and one more attribute point for the whole duration. Concretely, it will often make the difference between [Magic (5) + Attribute Boost (1) = 2 hits = +2 to the Attribute for 4 Combat Turns] and [Magic (5) + Attribute Boost (4) = 3 hits = +3 to the Attribute for 6 Combat Turns]. Of course, nothing in the rules say that you cannot use the power repeatedly, so if you don't mind reactivating the power more often, option 1 is the way to go if you need the boost to last as long as possible (e.g. you are in a huge fight that lasts several minutes) as you will probably never get drain. However, a higher level of the power will give you the maximum boost much more consistently, and that has value as well. For only .25 Power Point, I think the first level is a hell of a good deal for Agility and Strength, but I don't think it's broken as you'll usually need more than that to max out your attribute without using Edge all the time. And if you're a Level 5 initiate who almost always squeezes a maxed attribute out of his .25 Power Point with no drain whatsoever, well, you're a Level 5 initiate!?!?! If you use the power often, you'll likely buy more levels as your ability to handle the drain improves in order to extend the duration of the boost. Overall, the way the power works is far from perfect, but I think I'll use it as is and see how it actually works during games. I still think that it doesn't compare all that well with Muscle Toner and Muscle Augmentation, but that's just my own opinion.

Additionally, Muscle Toner 3 and Muscle Aug 3 (if alpha) will fit in under 1 essence, vs taking improved ability (Str) and (Agi) for 2 point powers.

So you can spend 2 points of magic, or one point of essence.

Muscle Aug 2 and Toner 2 are available in standard, at chargen, and together are less than 1 essence point.

So you can potentially get more success with the adept power, but at a higher cost, with activation. Or you can have constant boosts that may not reach as high.

Trade-off!

Now the sweetest thing about Attribute Boost is when you're an elf with Exceptional Attribute (Agility). With that, you get a maximum natural Agility of 8, and a maximum augmented Agility of 12. Then you need a few levels of Attribute Boost and a high Edge and you're ready to roll. Of course, even when spending Edge, getting your agility up from, let's say, 7 to 12 is going to be tough, and you'll likely fall short of the max quite often, but it still is a pretty scary thought. Of course, an elven sammy with Exceptional Attribute (Agility) and Muscle Toner 4 is going to be even scarier as he could *always* have an Agility of 12, but hey! adepts have other tricks up their sleeves.

I do think the adept attribute increrase are terrible, they really nerf adepts as compared to street sam, for my high level game both adepts who appear have both used a point of essence or two to boost stats and get some of the structural toughness stuff to make themselves more duarble. It seems the way to go for pragmatic adepts who aren't prissy about their essence. I'm tempted to run Increased attribute as .5 per point which is more in line with cyber.

The Adept powers aren't that far out of line with cyberware, but for Str, Agi and IP/Rea bioware is definately the way to go.

The other way i'd enhance adepts is by allowing a increase mental attribute power, that would help as well, as I think adepts should have more unique tricks.

Yes I have, doesn't stop me wanting the ability to buy increased charisma as a power.

Okay so mages have a spell for it, but it being non dispellable would be unique.

I think I need to add this here:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...pic=11911&st=25

Social Adepts already piss all over everyone else in the game when it comes to their area of speciality. There is absolutely no logical reason to make them even more god-like in that department.

I don't even allow social adepts in my games (SR3). Absolutely ridiculous.

Isn't increased attribute totally overprized, so that no one will choose it, ever, or did I miss something?

holy thread necromancy batman

Consider, the greatest speach ever, by the greatest speach giver ever (before the pornomancer cam along, anyway). He has Cha 7, Social skill of 6+2 (specialty) and is adding his edge of say, 4 dice for a total of 19 dice. He gets somewhere between 7 and 10 sucesses. Incite Rome to riot after the death of Ceasar? Keep British morale from failing after Dunkirik? Talk around 6,000 Englishmen into standing and fighting an army out-numbering them somewhere between 3 and 5 to one (Agincourt)?

All these things should be doable at the range of 7-10 sucesses. This is the level of success the pornomancer adept can expect to get when you are, erm, exposed to him. If he gets lucky and/or uses edge, it will be even better than that.

Could any of those leaders, stripped of their position and prestige, walk into a bar and turn someone gay, who wasn't? Or even get a total stranger to buy their meal? Not likely.

Social skills have a pretty limited range. No matter how many successes you get, the Johnson only has so much that he can spend to hire the runners. Etiquette might let the local go-gang let you by. Negotiation might get you a bargain price on a cheap getaway car. Con might convince the guard that you're there for an interview.

But it's a bad GM who lets social skills override people's deepest prejudices or fears, or cause them to act in a way that they know is detrimental to them (including giving stuff to the PC for free). Heck, I probably have a Willpower of 3 or so at most, but there are still views that I have that other people can't change (they might be able to out-argue me, but they won't get me to change my views). Things like whether I will do drugs or change my sexual orientation are pretty set in stone, even though I have a hard time doing things like keeping to a schedule or eating healthy food.

So no, I don't buy the whole "The social adept can get you to do anything, because he rolls a lot of dice" argument. That's the worst kind of munchkinism.

Just get rid of Kinesics. Bing bang boom, social adepts are playable characters again!

The simple solution is that since most social tests are opposed is to throw in some social adepts from the refs side, they exist in corps, and will end up in the johnson end of things mostly I would think.

When I suggested improved mental attribute I was mostly joking when I mentioned charisma, I tend to play high Cha characters so hey. Mostly what I'd like is the ability to increase Intuition, Logic and Willpower to add to a mental adept, combining it with things like 3-d awarness and analytics.

Oh god. Pornomancer Johnsons.

"You arrive at the meet, sit down, and the Johnson begins to speak. You think you almost hear the far-off tinkle of what might be a huge fistful of dice. The next half hour is a bit of a blur, but when you've gathered your thoughts, you've agreed to steal Nadja Daviar's nipple ring for fourteen nuyen. You're also a bit hazy on what happened to your pants, and you have six missed calls from a "Bubba"."