I was going to post some bullshit about Conservation of Karma, but I can't be arsed.

To discourage people from creating a allies are an absurd number of complex mechanical forms.

"Jim, this is my ally spirit, Sixshot. Sixshot can change into a jet-propelled flying laser gun, a giant robot, a heavily armed space cuiser, a tank, an armored personel carrier, and a mechanical wolf."

It is purely pragmtic although it can be justified by the fact that an ally isn't just a generic spirit. It is a spirit that you're building yourself. You have to fully understand the inner workings of even its tinniest parts. By comparison, I wouldn't allow an ally with a metahuman form to pass a medical inspection unless the magician can design an actual system of internal organs for it.

This is an old debate. but, the rules say you cannot. So you cannot.

No one said it wasn't cannon. They said it was munchkin. Go one step further, a motorcycle that can shoot 14S lazer beams out of its headlights, and it's tailpipes can fire autocannon rounds.

Seems like a simple and cheap way to get your fairlight excalibur, and mp lazer 3.

The book in question I think is Crossroads, published the same year as MitS. It makes sense that hes an author of that book. A lot of people think the spirit motorcycle thing is absurd. There are a lot o the portions of the rules that we tend to ignore because of their stupidity, like Surge.

Yeah, but that was Wulfgar and Drizzt, waaaay cooler character's than Talon.

The rules say that your smartlinks shut down if you have two of them?

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck then it may as well be a duck.

Lets put this idea to a test. I make an ally in the smape of a break-action pistol. The ally opens itself up and I load it with a cartridge. Then, the ally strikes the cartridge's primer with its firing pin. Why does this cartridge magically not fire when struck by a manifsted spirit's firing pin? The answer is that it would. By the same token a gasoline/air mixture in a manifest ally spirit's internal combustion engine will combust just as well as it would in any other engine.

The only thing to consider is the strength of the spirit's materials and its ability to handle the pressures produced by such combustion. An armor spell and decent body should ensure that a spirit can withstand the pressures of a small gunpowder explosion or fuel/air combustion. If not the spirit will take damage.


For mechanical devices that don't require explosions to occur inside of the mechanism it is even easier. If a spirits form has all of the correct parts and they all work like they are supposed to then there is no difference between the spirit and the mechanism except for the facts that the spirit cannot be disassembeled and that its mechanical strength and durability are based on its stats rather than the barrier rating of whatever materials would have been used in the device.

Yeah, but an Ally shaped like a hammer doesn't do damage like one when swung.

ugh, i have that transformer figure

Who says a default spirit shape would have a working firing pin? Or a working breech, or a working trigger mechanism? All the spirit does is *look* like a gun, it doesn't mean it has any properties of one. If I have a hologram of a gun, why should it manage to do any of that?

Granted, you can build an ally with all of those details, but then you're invoking the homoniculi rules. If you want to define any of the physical properties of an ally, you need to put it into a physical body. And since you're now putting the ally into a physical form, the only limits on the form are what you can physically find. And if you want the virgin or handmade telesma bonus, then you are going to have to build the whole thing from scratch; additionally, this being an ally, you'd have to at least research the physical form somewhat.

When Talon's spirit manifests in physical form, it has same the attributes whether it's a motorcycle or an eagle. A Great Dragon has different attributes from a drop bear, but a spirit with Great Dragon and drop bear forms has the same physical attributes. I would infer that to mean when manifesting, an ally spirit takes the appearance of an item, but does not actually become the item, with all of its associated powers and features. However, I can't find where it says which quickness multiplier to use for movement.

It says "physical form", but as Glorian pointed out, it also makes pains to demonstrate that the physical form has zero effect on the physical attributes. Something in the shape of a gun, but without the attributes of a gun, isn't going to be able to fire bullets.

And I have no problem letting someone have a spirit with a technological form, *if* they use the homoniculus rules. If they enchant a cyberdeck to be an inhabiting focus, then that's perfectly all right. You can enchant a sword, and get the "intelligent weapon" trick out of it as well; if you want to enchant your dikoted AVS, you can do that, too.

Dramatic license. Then again, if an ally has the form of a horse, why shouldn't it be able to whinny and shake? It's basically just window-dressing.

GM's call. Spirit movement multipliers aren't explicitly mentioned anywhere that I can think of. The one time it came up in one of my games, we discussed a house rule to allow the ally to have a limited version of the Movement power to simulate this. You'll have to find out what works for your own games, I'm afraid.

So what exactly would prevent an ally sprit shaped like a tube with a pin itn it from using its strength to crush the primer of a cartridge that has been shoved in the tube?

Guns don't have physical stats. No inanimate object does. Show me a firearm qith Quickness, Strengt, or Body and the analogy would be apt. Wihtout these things thre is nothign stopping the spirit from functioning as a gun. I will happily admit that a spirit should be required to resist damage whenever it is fired and I would point out that such a spirit gun should have a damage code of (STR)M Stun by the letter of the rules; however, it is absurd to think that it cannot be done. Its like saying that a spirit shaped like a grandfather clock can't display the time. It's like saying that a spirit with a metahuman form can't walk because its stats don't include legs.

A spirit's physical stats are equal no matter what for it has because a spirit's forms are all made of *handwave*. While *handwave* may appear to be flesh or steel it is not. *Handwave* can absorb a lot of damage without comprimsing the spirits health as is represented by Immunity to Normal Weapons But its durability is ultimatly limited by the spirit's stats. The question that we must consider is *handwave*'s ability to withstand pressures of a cartridge being fired without deforming significantly. The answer may be yes or no depending on the spirit's force and its body.

An ally spirit with the form of a metahuman should be mechanically identical to a metahuman and should be able to move like a metahuman of equivilant stats. An ally spirit with the form of a grandfather clock should be mechanically identical to a grandfather clock and should be able to keep time. Being a spirit, it should also be able to set itself. An ally spirit with the shape of a firearm should be mechanically identical to a firearm and should opperate like a firearm. It may operate like a defective firearm that explodes in your hand when fired but it would still operate like a firearm.

There are, of course, exceptions. An Ally spirit with the form of a grandfather clock will be more intelligent, more perceptive and more durable than a real grandfather clock. While Mr. Axe-Wielding Troll can easily reduce a real grandfather clock to splinters he has to deal with the spirit's immunity to normal weapons and its Body. Likewise, the expanding gasses within a gun-shaped allyspirit will have to be resisted with Immunity to Normal Weapons and Body. This could cause problems. My advise is to not let anything explode inside your ally spirit.

Everything you say about why you should be able to fire bullets from a gun-shaped spirit makes sense within the context you provide, so that's fine if it's how the GM wishes to play it. I personally have a different take on it in that the magician chooses the spirit's outward form only. A golem made of concrete wouldn't have muscles and organs within it, I don't see that any other form would necessarily need the internal mechanics (organic or inorganic) to replicate any other form. In short, you can have a spirit that is a simulacrum of a car, and I'd let you sit in it, I suppose, but you couldn't lift the bonnet and see an engine. You couldn't lift the bonnet at all. The spirit doesn't understand car mechanics, or human biology, but it knows what the magician wishes it to look like and it does its best to take that shape, but that is as far as it goes.

That's how I would handle it anyway. Hormunculous is there for actual inhabited objects. A materialising howitzer is just too open to abuse as is a banshee with Immunity to Normal Weapons.

As I said:

In the context you are using, your argument makes perfect sense. I only ever take issue with people's arguments where they are internally inconsistent. However, I am using a different context for my games which I think is neat and balanced without sacrificing fluffy flavour. I just offer it here as an alternative for GMs who are concerned with players designing burst-firing ally spirits.

The howitzer and the banshee were my typical exaggerations to be colourful. A materialising shotgun or just a small car with immunity to normal weapons would still be sufficiently headachesome for me as a GM. Nevermind that I've just thought of having some allys materialise as cyberlimbs.

Player: "I'm just a poor mulitple amputee, let me in."
Guard: "Okay"
Player: ZA-POW!

Too late.

Heh - at least yours aren't six paragraphs long and ignored!

But if it's any consolation

You're a 'someone else' but you're in there!

JongWK - that's brilliant!