What exactly does everyone else do in regards to the powerful Movement critter power? I'm trying to make some sort of houserule to counteract it's munchkining, something like crash tests when rounding corners or brake speeds (how fast you slow down).

Any suggestions are appreciated.

It seems a common theme with our runs that spirit powers tend to give NPCs such trouble that the runs become too easy. With movement (a power that stays for as long as you sustain it, with no sustaining mods) NPC's can no longer use positioning tactics to help them with the highly skilled runners. Cover and obstacles aren't any helps to the unfortunate NPCs. WHat's more, there's not any possibliity of retreat or ambushing if the PCs are behind you in the blink of an eye. We had a problem with using Movement on the party (several tasks, or course) making the whole mission WAY too easy.

Why should ambushing be impossible? Even a mage in astral space who moves at the speed of his mind is ambushable.
Really, if the party is surprised, the enemy will, with more or less effort, take one or two of them down.

I think it is not too odd... you get 4 successes with 12 dice average. Requiring 6 agility and 6 running skill or similar, 7/5 for example. But that's alright, I think.
If the world record runner(in our times!) had around 10-12 dice, this would be realistic.

Well, but world records aren't set by people having an average day. It's safe to assume that the current record holder 'rolled very well' and probably spent Edge on the day the record was set

Anyway. It's not HUGELY off, it just seems a little bit high to me. I'd have set it a touch lower.

Running is Strength, but yeah I noticed the same thing.

Nothing prevents your NPCs from using the same tactics. What's good for the goose...

True, but it's proven so effective against the NPCs that it seems unfair to use at all, against the baddies and by the baddies.

I think like the other issues you've described (concealment and whatnot), that static defenses are still missing from your game. Gas traps, electric fences, suppressive fire and others, all would be able to affect and contain a zippy runner.

The other thing that can happen is guards calling for backup, heavy weapons, magic, spirits all can be on station and sent to assist a guard in trouble.

you can't use this on vehicles right? No breaking the speed of sound on your motorcycle. And they laughed at my dodge scoot, well whoose laughing now bwahaahahaha crash!

What about levitate speed it has movement rate of net sucesses x force of spell.

For reference:

SR4 page 289...

yeah in SR3 and 2 I think it was described as working on vehicles, I only used it to slow pursuit because I couldn't rationalize anyone actually piloting a van etc going 400 miles an hour not even a rigger. Here it isn't mentioned and uses the term subject, so I think no but I wasn't sure.

There are a lot of things that I'm having toruble figuring out how they work in SR4 too many times I'm letting my preconceived notions from previous editions give me an answer I never saw in the SR4 book. Like how do you attack focusses can you mask focusses. In SR1-3 I knew the answers I knew I could mask 1 force of focusses for every grade of initiation. Now either I'm blind or I'm waiting for another book. Hopefully the issues wont come up until I figure it out. Sometimes its easier to learn a completely new system as opposed to a new edition. Sorry for the OT venting.

Agreed on the precedent inteferring with understanding SR4 as written. You're not alone. =)

Don't have time to look it up right now but I thought rules for attacking foci (astral objects) was in SR4. What's missing is the ability to ground spells through them, which was also missing in SR3.

Hmm, well upon considerable review, I see no way to attack and affect foci on the astral. It's true that they are astral forms, and that astral forms can be attacked in astral combat, so the groundwork is there. But no mention is given to their defense value, what it takes to break one, etc. So, for all intents and purposes, I suppose we have to assume it's an advanced topic relegated to the planned magic sourcebook. =(

CM will probably equal 8+(Force/2). After all, vehicles have CM's like players and It works the same way.

I just have a quick question regarding this: say the PC's have their spirit to speed a character up, but they run into a group of NPCs with their own spirit, which decides to try to use its own movement power to slow the target down. Would each of the movement powers just cancel each other out, and the character doesn't receive an increase in his or her movement rate, or would the spirits have to engage in some sort of opposed test to determine which one of them controls the terrain? Or would force determine which spirit controlled the terain? Such as a Force 6 Air Spirit controlling the area, versus a Force 4.

The way I'd handle opposing movement power uses is to have whichever has a higher Force take effect, but its effective Force is reduced by the lesser. If they are equal, they cancel each other. You could also do it as an opposed test, if that suits you, whereas the winner uses his power at a Force equal to his net hits, limited by his actual Force rating.

Sam, once again, you need to grow a set man.

Stop letting these tool players take advatage of you. You are not haiving fun, they are being unfair to you.

Movement does not give you a single die for a dodge test. If they have this power sustained, then make sure you string 30 meters of monowire across doors, and inside of EVERY air duct in your buildings. Let these people keep abusing these spirit powers and hang them with it.

YOU ARE THE GM. Act like it. You do not need house rules, you have a set of rules in fornt of you, use them. Land mines, claymores, and anchored spells on every door way, cmplete with watcher spirits and sustained spirits on mages in the backgorund.

Be extreme and ruthless. Each and everytime they try to buffalo you doing crap like this, make sure your retribution is swift, violent and extreme. Dump a vat of acid on someone, hit people with anchored force 16 manablasts.

When you kill this whole party off, make sure you tell them, as long as they continue to get over on you, you will be using a strong hand. They will get the message, play with out trying to screw you over, and for chrissakes, use something else besides spirits.

If not, they you have many many fun ways to kill players. You could make a game of it, let them succeed the first half of the run, just to kill them with a Force 14 manablast.

Let them actually get to the file cabinet the folder is stored on, but when they open it, there was a concelaed (a force 8 spirit is not too much from a million dollar security contract hired to keep this file safe, is not too much eh?) rating 6 plastic under the file cabinet designed to explode when a certain phermone type doesn't open tghe cabinet.

Count up the number of times they used these same cheese ball tactics up in a game. The next game, make sure there are that number of spirts, that number of booby traps, and that number of locked doors with explosives wating for them.

Use your strong hand. If they where interested in your GROUP having fun, they would not be taking advanyage of YOU. Since they wanna be power gamers, make sure they are skilled at making characters, as they will not be getting more than 5 karma before they meet violent deaths.

That seems really heavy handed and a great way to alienate the players.

It's a power that spirits have, its useful for tactical applications, it makes sense and is totally reasonable in-game for people who can summon up spirits with that power to go and sustain it on them. Is the presence of one team making use of this ability so threatening that corps are scrambling to turn their buildings into bizarre deathtraps to anyone who steps in the wrong spot?

While I wouldn't agree with Workover's kill-'em-all attitude if you (the GM) aren't having fun then you definately need to do something about it. Ultimately you are the GM. It is within your power to just say "'You can't do that 'cos I'm the GM".

This is not a tactic GMs ought to be resorting to often as there are other ways to reign in players. A lot of them have been discussed in this thread and others, and I don't believe I can add anything to the things Shrike30 and the like have said. Wards are ultimately the best way to deal with troublesome use of spirits. Players will eventually find them less and less useful if they have to keep dispelling them, losing services each time, to get through even weak wards, unless they want to alert building security. Spirits can also be made so testy and unpleasant to deal with that they are only worth summoning in dire circumstances.

I wouldn't be as this extreme in every game, just until they stop trying to screw you.

Samuel has made two threads now where this group is screwing him. he is a new GM. They are new SR4 players. You are setting a bad example by letting them get over this much, they are learning bad habits by finding a rule that you are having trouble dealing with.

Magic is great, but technology is just as good.

I would strongly suggest you do not house rule stuff, nor tell your players they can not use these spirit powers, just because you say so.

Give them all the tools they want, but as long as they wish to abuse rules and power game, you, as a GM, get to try out all the dirty tricks of the trade.

When they see that cheeseball tactics stop working, and they can not out power game the guy in charge, they stop.

Its all fun an games until you send a Behemoth AND a Jauggernaught after them.