I'd hate to see what kind of numbers they give military grade combat armor then.

Although the helmet had an extra +1 and the suits had a +1 (+2 for Heavy) over their civy counterparts, by far the biggest difference between Security and Mil Spec was the hardening. I think they could get away with not having any different numbers at all with the suit, just hardening, and maybe an extra +1 on the helmets.

Er, no. That's more insane than spirits.

heck, that's almost as good as citymaster's armor, isn't it? =P

Not almost. Citymaster has Armor 20. With one of those on and a tweaked Body 15 a Troll could basically become a Citymaster (Body 16).

That is what I was getting at before when I suggested that Full Body Armor basically was Medium Armor. Although I could also see reduced armor versions being available since it is all custom made items anyway, allowing the environmental seal option for lower Body people. I'd give Mil Spec at most 14/12 and 16/14, or even just the same 12/10 and 14/12 but hardened. Otherwise you are still in the range of man-powered mecha, even if Emo would think man-powered mecha AWESOME.

Previous versions of SR have indicated through fluff, game stats, and pictures that military-grade armor is significantly heavier and better protecting than security-grade armor. SR2's stats for milspec armor, if memory serves, let you get 14 points of ballistic armor (in SR2 terms, as well... we've had Armor Inflation since then) on the high end, whereas security armor went up to something like 8.

Plenty of sources talk about your average grunt wearing an armored jacket and a helmet. This provided nearly as much protection as Light Security Armor in previous editions and implied a much greater level of mobility and much lighter weight. Milspec armor, then, was obviously not intended for basic grunts to wear.

The basis of this in modern armor? Virtually none. Look to a lot of cyberpunk sources for the kind of imagery you should be imagining here.

Security armor is reminiscent of the "shell" armor types worn by police in anime like Bubblegum Crisis, or the plate armor of the Wolf Brigade in Jin Roh, or the kind of armor worn by the Judges in Judge Dredd: obvious plating covering vitals, often styled for intimidation, and some sort of ballistic undergarment providing protection for the rest of your body. Lots of pictures of corporate goons or other big, scary looking guys in SR books are wearing Security armor.

Military armor has always been depicted as being, essentially, a suit of armor. Not a body sheath and plates, not particularly open to the air... a suit, looking a lot like we imagine powered armor might (although they have previously said it isn't powered). Massive heavy plates interlocking over the chest, limbs inside of hard shells with guards protecting the joints, a sealed helmet with environmental systems, strange bugeyes, and some sort of flexible seal that lets it turn at the neck. The eyes probably glow, the armor makes noise when you move in it... it's not subtle, it's just solid. You could probably put the wearer on an airless moon and have him fight in it, or napalm the field he's in the middle of and have him turn up the AC.

It's not that security teams wouldn't necessarily have access to this stuff... it's that security teams don't have a NEED or WANT for this stuff. Security teams rarely find themselves battling a mechanized force in a destroyed city, under heavy shelling for days at a time, or assaulting fortified positions with autocannon and mortar coverage. Security teams talk to people, chase runners down hallways, and have to be able to turn sideways and let someone holding a bunch of photocopies run to the meeting they're late to... while they're well trained and aggressive, turning them into walking, death-dealing humanoid monsters interferes with productivity at the office. Nobody likes walking past a 6'6" hulk of armor with glaring eyes built into it's helmet carring a machine gun down the hallway.

7.62x51mm SLAP ammo is by all accounts extremely rare/simply unavailable, unless you're a Swedish sniper. The 7.62x51mm equivalent of the M995, the M993 tungsten AP rounds, is deployed in number. AFAIK, the M993 can penetrate heaviest common forms of body armor (NIJ level IV), no idea about M995. Either will zip right through any flexible body armor.

In fiscal years 05-07, the US Army procured in the order of 1.4 billion M855 5.56x45mm ball cartridges in commercial packs, clips, linked for SAWs, etc., vs. 15.2 million total M993 AP cartridges. That's 1 5.56x45mm AP for every 100 FMJs. Also, while the FMJ ammunition is justified as a "training standard item used in both training and combat", the AP rounds are "war reserve" only -- although, for whatever reason, an extra $3 million worth of M995 AP rounds were purchased to support the "global war on terrorism" in 2005.

For 7.62x51mm, it's ~280 million M80 ball cartridges vs. 8.7 million M993 AP, and here the AP ammunition is also for "training and combat" instead of being a war reserve item.

In any case, current military small arms armor piercing ammunition is designed and carried for use against light armored targets (like APCs), and certainly not against opponents wearing body armor.

Now, stick your opponents in 2070's armor that provides nearly the protection of an APC, and the logic changes...

I was unaware that the M995 round was intended to be effective against/through the side of vehicles. Cool.

Check the armor rules closer, there was a recent thread here about this. It is Armor compared to just Body. So 12 - 5 = 7 point penalty. Body 5 buddy is going nowhere fast. He'll need to be cutting edge just to move at all.

Exactly the problem trying to avoid. The logic not only changes, it gets run over in an AWESOME way.

I guess it's also useful for any other targets that may be covered in 3+mm of RHA like... uhh... assorted steel plates?

So that's why people wear armored jackets, which hand your normal Body 3 person a -5 penalty? Or how about Full Body Armor? Yeah, that stuff's great... and a beefy SWAT member at body 5 is going to be dragging around with a -5 penalty wearing it, too?

Check the armor rules closer. You compare it to 2xBody, and it's for every 2 points you exceed that by. A body 3 person wearing an armored jacket (8/6) takes a -1 penalty, for being 2 above (3x2=) 6.

Hey, steel is something you encounter in an urban environment, as is concrete and rebar. In theory, so is body armor, and I thought the usual M855 was stopped by Class III armor?

Stand-alone steel is not common, though. AFAICT, AP small arms ammunition will not increase penetration of most building materials nearly enough to justify the increased cost. There's only so much you can do with a 52 grain bullet at Mach 3.

NIJ level III is indeed rated to protect against M855s. But that's just for the 10" x 12" plates on your chest and back, anything else is unprotected. And, really, do you foresee US soldiers engaging a lot of enemy combatants with modern rigid body armor in the near future?

No, a Body 5 person wearing the 10/8 Full Body Armor doesn't have a penalty at all. Armored Jackets worn by Body 3 people? Yes, they do get a penalty of -(8-3)/2 = -3, which should lead you to a better understanding of how bulky the Armored Jacket is.

As written it is very clear that you compare to Bodyx2 to see if there is a penalty and use just Body to calculate the penalty. But I forgot to half it, rounded up, so it is only a -4 penalty to Reaction for Body 5 wearing armor 12. Which is still damn nasty, yes. They are going to get hit a lot more often, get hit harder, and obviously be much more vulnerable to Gitching when getting shot at.

EDIT I just checked the thread this was mentioned in. You posted to the thread a couple of times, guess you missed the discussion about the penalty calculation on page 149?

All in all you do not want to be getting yourself into an armor penalty situation in SR.

Sure. That's what M993 and M995 is for. It's just not designed or meant to be used as a counter to body armor.

How is it issued, then (if it is)? Are soldiers told to load a few magazines in case they encounter an armored target? Do they just fill their loadouts with AP if they expect to be fighting armored targets? Does the machinegunner carry some of each type of ammo, or just all AP when he expects to need it?

No need to wait.

Ya, well SR1-3 had a combat system problem with all-or-nothing damage that has been addressed by SR4. I don't see how bringing the problem back is a good thing to aim for.

Even numbers as low as I'm suggesting, sadly, doesn't really change that much. With an Assult Rifle, and for the heavier armor even the sniper rifle, you need either some sort of armor penetrating ammo, a good number of hits on the attack roll, or a Called Shot of some sort before the target needs to roll soak on hardened armor. Even with those 25mm HEAT rounds in the XXL, think shooting exploding Italian sausages at Mach 2+, you'd need to roll two hits to get through hardened armor 16. If that isn't scary, then I suggest you might be using the entirely wrong system for your game. Try Nobilis maybe?

??? Ummm, and he's still alive?

They didn't have much grounds before, either. Especially for Bind. Outside of maybe you not letting them know up front that it could happen that the spirit would resist using Edge?

It certainly tames down those highlevel spirits. Our GM just goes by the [edit]house[/edit] ruling that asking a spirit to use Edge is service by itself, which works fairly well. We don't have twinked out mages though, nor even if we did would summoning muchless binding such powerful spirits as that be a wise decision. Because they are played as sentient beings that are quite likely to look down on a mage much as we look down on a bug.