Like I said: I just ran a Wushu game, with no weapon proficiencies at all. Instead of picking up the fully-loaded TEC-9's from the mook's dead hands, the kung-fu guy chose to go for a thrown table leg, which involved breaking one off the table first. (Besides which, last night at the deparment store, I saw the rows of 22LR ammo right beneath the rifles, in the same case. Gun stores might do it differently, but department stores don't.)
Second, the problem is that you're demanding specific setting rules out of a generic system. If black powder weapons haven't existed in your games for over a thousand years, then you've defined them as "not typical" for your game. Specific skill groupings wouldn't be any better at this.
For example, let's go back to the Colt 45 dragoon, a smoothbore black-powder revolver. I can probably find one on Ebay, so they're not totally alien or archaic devices, just antiquated. If I handed a dragoon to a SR3 character with a high Pistols skill, would he be able to handle it properly? On the one hand, it's a pistol; a revolver, even. On the other hand, a cap-and-ball firearm not only uses radically different reload techniques, but it has different ballistic properties as well.
Full Version: skill grouping
At the shooting range I go to, they keep the ammo in the next aisle down from the actual firearms (about the same distance from the display cases under the counter, too). Not locked up, either. I'd grant the possibility that they're dummy cases for display purposes, but it seems excessive to have twenty-odd dummy cases of the exact same sort stacked next to each other, so that's unlikely.
~J
~J
Your department store may not, but mine certainly does. Your department store must have some other way of ensuring that people don't just pick up a gun and start killing people? Perhaps locked gun cases, trigger gaurds, or something else? The Wal-marts by my house both use locked storage cases for ammunition and locked cases for the guns themselves, both on seperate aisles.
| QUOTE |
| Second, the problem is that you're demanding specific setting rules out of a generic system. If black powder weapons haven't existed in your games for over a thousand years, then you've defined them as "not typical" for your game. Specific skill groupings wouldn't be any better at this. |
Which is why you're the only person talking about black powder weapons whent he rest of us are talking about a bow hunter and an army rifleman. In this instance going for the bow is incredibly in character, no matter what the guys in your Wushu game do.
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| For example, let's go back to the Colt 45 dragoon |
No thanks. I'd like to stick to the example we've been trying to get you to use for several pages now, but that you're refusing to do because you think it "doesn't make sense" and therefor it doesn't exist as a possibility in your world.
The firearms that aren't under glass are locked to the wall. The ammo is just in little plastic or cardboard boxes, according to manufacturer's choice.
~J
~J
Maybe here in Texas there are more ammo thieves, so they lock it up better.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| The firearms that aren't under glass are locked to the wall. |
Ooh, glass. How ironic when the glass is smashed with a box of ammo.
Hopefully it's sturdy glass, so you have to shoot your way through with the gun you originally brought.
| QUOTE |
| Your department store may not, but mine certainly does. Your department store must have some other way of ensuring that people don't just pick up a gun and start killing people? Perhaps locked gun cases, trigger gaurds, or something else? The Wal-marts by my house both use locked storage cases for ammunition and locked cases for the guns themselves, both on seperate aisles. |
All the guns and ammo are kept in a single locked display case. I haven't tried smashing it, so I couldn't tell you how sturdy it is, but I'll bet there's an alarm or two on it. Then again, that store doesn't have anything more powerful than 22LR that I saw, so they might not be overly concerned. They keep AirSofts in the same case, so that should tell you about how seriously they think of guns around these parts.
| QUOTE |
| Which is why you're the only person talking about black powder weapons whent he rest of us are talking about a bow hunter and an army rifleman. In this instance going for the bow is incredibly in character, no matter what the guys in your Wushu game do. |
If the bow's "incredibly in character", then the character sheet will reflect that somehow, with a tight or wide skill grouping. The advantage here is that the wide grouping actually allows the player to have a broader concept; he doesn't have to micromanage his points in order to get everything he wants. Tighter groupings encourage more min/maxing and point-squeezing to get every last detail correct.
And don't try and ignore the argument. If you had a character in your Shadowrun game get a hold of a black powder, Colt 45 dragoon, would you allow him to use his Pistols skill to fire it? On the one hand, it's a revolver, not unlike many other revolvers. On the other hand, it's got different ballistics, different properties; percussion guns just don't feel the same as cartridge revolvers. Just answer the question: would you allow the wide grouping, or not?
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| If the bow's "incredibly in character", then the character sheet will reflect that somehow, with a tight or wide skill grouping. The advantage here is that the wide grouping actually allows the player to have a broader concept; he doesn't have to micromanage his points in order to get everything he wants. Tighter groupings encourage more min/maxing and point-squeezing to get every last detail correct. |
What are the rules for tight and wide groups? That's an entirely new aspect to the discussion that could greatly affect my views of Savage World.
| QUOTE |
| And don't try and ignore the argument. If you had a character in your Shadowrun game get a hold of a black powder, Colt 45 dragoon, would you allow him to use his Pistols skill to fire it? On the one hand, it's a revolver, not unlike many other revolvers. On the other hand, it's got different ballistics, different properties; percussion guns just don't feel the same as cartridge revolvers. Just answer the question: would you allow the wide grouping, or not? |
Ah, so I'm not allowed to ignore questions but you are? Ok, here goes. I would allow him to fire it with no problem. Presumably the different ballistics would be handled by the stats of the weapon itself (different ranges, DV, and maybe a general dice pool penalty). I would require a knowledge (guns, history, or something similar) check to see if he knew how to reload it.
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What are the rules for tight and wide groups? That's an entirely new aspect to the discussion that could greatly affect my views of Savage World. |
Varies from system to system. GURPS, for example, runs with an extrememly tight skill grouping system, where every possible item has its own skill. NWOD has a very wide one: melee, unarmed, and firearms is about it. Wushu doesn't even have any groupings worth mentioning at all. Savage Worlds fits in the middle categories fairly solidly.
| QUOTE |
| I would allow him to fire it with no problem. Presumably the different ballistics would be handled by the stats of the weapon itself (different ranges, DV, and maybe a general dice pool penalty). I would require a knowledge (guns, history, or something similar) check to see if he knew how to reload it. |
I've already answered your bow question multiple times, so now I'm going to pick on your answer a bit. A percussion gun not only handles differently than a normal gun, it kicks differently as well. It's more related to an arquebus than a peacemaker. So, what happens if Sam the antique firearms collector, and Sally the modern-day merc who has never fired a gun more than ten years old, are both forced to pick up Colt Dragoons and defend themselves? Would you put them at the exact same level of skill, even though their pistols skills are identical?
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| Varies from system to system. |
Ah, silly me. I thought that all this time we'd been discussing Savage Worlds as the example. Oh wait... we have. The question is "how does SW handle this." The answer of "rules differ from game system to game system" is a nonsequiter.
| QUOTE |
| So, what happens if Sam the antique firearms collector, and Sally the modern-day merc who has never fired a gun more than ten years old, are both forced to pick up Colt Dragoons and defend themselves? Would you put them at the exact same level of skill, even though their pistols skills are identical? |
My answer remains the same. I'm assuming that the differences in the weapon are handled by rules for the weapon itself. Sam's benefit would be in knowing what to do with the gun when the bullets run out. It may not be the best solution, but it works for me.
Note, that's an off the cuff ruling because I don't think you'd accept "I don't know." What would actually happen is that I would discuss it with the players involved and see what we can agree to. A few ideas that would get tossed on the table would be to give Sally a dice pool penalty, increased recoil, or maybe an increased chance of glitching. What would actually happen I have no idea. We may end up deciding that they are different enough to warrant two seperate skills, in which case Sam needs the new skill to reflect his increased training.
The more I think about it the more I like that last one, assuming the weapons are actually different enough to warrant it. I'd most likely jump over here and ask folks more knowledgable than myself, preferably austere Emancipator, as he seems to have a catalog of weapon history and behavior in his brain.
In conclusion, there would be a few items on the table for my group to discuss:
1) They work the same, except for the difference in the guns' stats.
2) They work differently, Sam doesn't suffer negatives.
3) As one, but with knowledge skills helping to negate penalties (perhaps on the "buy a hit" method)
4) They are two seperate skills, if Sam wants expertise with the older guns he needs the skill
5) They are two seperate skills, but close enough to allow defaulting.
6) Anything I've forgotten or that a player brings up as an option.
| QUOTE |
| I've already answered your bow question multiple times |
Your answer has been "don't let it happen" which reeks of the GM Fiat you profess to hate.
| QUOTE |
| My answer remains the same. I'm assuming that the differences in the weapon are handled by rules for the weapon itself. |
If Colt 45 dragoons aren't typical weapons in your games, they won't have stats until the players pick them up and start firing. How do you penalize them?
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| We may end up deciding that they are different enough to warrant two seperate skills, in which case Sam needs the new skill to reflect his increased training. |
which is exactly the problem; a detailed system punishes players for giving their character depth, because it costs them more to vary their skills a bit more. That actually detracts from the realism of the game, because the guy who's an expert marksman with a 30-06 can't hit the side of a barn with a 22LR.
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| Your answer has been "don't let it happen" which reeks of the GM Fiat you profess to hate. |
No, it has been: "It'll be reflected on George's sheet", and "Good players will automatically pick what best suits their character:
| QUOTE ("Cain") |
| In this case, it's not the Shooting skill that matters. It's the various Edges that support the weapon styles. So, both characters are going to have a good shooting skill, but they're going to have different edges. Bob ends up being much better with his m16, since that's what he spent a lot of edges on; George is going to have a lot of archery edges, which make a huge difference. George is going to outshoot Bob with a bow, every time; and Bob won't be able to compete with the people at Aginicourt, because he lacks those edges. Similarily, George (probably) lacks the rifle edges, so he's not going to be as good as Bob. |
| QUOTE ("Cain") |
| So, Bob has a specialization in his standard-issue M16. George is kinda up in the air, but there's a definite implication that he's trained heavily enough to be specialized in bows. These differences can come out with the same base skill, plus a specialization in the appropriate weapon. |
| QUOTE ("Cain") |
| I promise you, unless you've got problem players, they'll automatically go for whichever weapon best fits their character. If they've got a William Tell type, they'll take the bows; if they're gun-bunnies, they'll ignore the bows and go for the guns. |
| QUOTE |
| If Colt 45 dragoons aren't typical weapons in your games, they won't have stats until the players pick them up and start firing. How do you penalize them? |
When I decide to have one in a position where it might get used to shoot people I'll come here and ask the more ballistically inclined members what they think makes sense. Until then I have no idea, nor do I need one.
| QUOTE |
| which is exactly the problem; a detailed system punishes players for giving their character depth, because it costs them more to vary their skills a bit more. That actually detracts from the realism of the game, because the guy who's an expert marksman with a 30-06 can't hit the side of a barn with a 22LR. |
What's your point? That's already been stated by most people here, including myself. I'm not arguing that skill groups are hyper realistic, I'm arguing that an all encompassing umbrella is also not realistic, and trying to figure out how different concepts would work in your girlfriend (aka Savage Worlds). And as I said, that's just one option, and not necessarily the primary contender for what we'd do.
| QUOTE |
| No, it has been: "It'll be reflected on George's sheet", and "Good players will automatically pick what best suits their character: <snipped quote> |
The first two quotes are meaningless as they don't actually pertain to the discussion. You know this already, as you've been told several times that neither character has any edges. The third quote is also meaningless, as it doesn't answer how things happen mechanically, which is the entire point of the question. One guy grabs the bow because it's closer and he knows how to use it, thus it's weapon that best fits the character for that situation. The other guy grabs the gun because he didn't write bow in his backstory, and is therefor penalized even though he has the same skills.
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