Full Version: Ritual Spellcasting with Material Links
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
Denial is only the first stage of grief. I've also seen on this thread Anger (stage two), Bargaining (stage three), and Depression (stage four, in the form of bitterness). We'll make that breakthrough yet.  |
You're precisely right Aaron
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| In SR3, Symbolic Linking required a metamagic. Only body parts and foci could be used as links without this metamagic. The former decays with time and the later can be severed by the magician. In the case of Symbolic links such as your favorite stuffed bear or your best friend, it takes an initiate to defeat an initiate. |
That's right, they did put sympathetic (ie the teddy bear) links into the realm of metamagic. I was thinking only symbolic (ie voodoo doll) links were covered by that one. Must have been remembering 2nd edition
I guess I'm getting senile in my old age | QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| It isn't like a background count. It is a bond. The links between you, your friends, your family, and your prized possessions are the same as the links between a magician and his bonded foci. The only difference is that the bonds connecting the magicians and the foci are stronger than natural bonds. |
True, but I was using it by way of analogy since it's a similar concept - mundance emotion having an effect of the astral aspect (or reflection more accurately) of an object or place.
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| Wow. You read all of that into the SR4 rules? 'Cuz that's where I'm coming from. |
That's the fundemental split
You're focusing solely on the SR4 rules in a stand alone fashion, while hyzmarca and I are taking the entirety of the setting as context for the new rules.| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| Um ... I'm no logician, but your argument seems to be a bit of a stretch. Care to elaborate? And maybe hint at a source? |
Well, as for sources -
1) Aina was able to use magic, albeit with some difficulty during the 5th world (the novel Worlds Without End). Also, certain vampires pre-date the Awakening (like the elven nosferatu from the novel Nosferatu). Also, the novel Black Madonna strongly suggests Jesus was a magician.
2) The Grimoires and Magic in the Shadows reference karma as a comodity that free spirits seek after.
3) Cybertechnology goes into detail regarding the methods by which cybermancy works, a transcript of which can be found on Ancient History's site here.
| QUOTE (NightmareX) |
| That's the fundemental split You're focusing solely on the SR4 rules in a stand alone fashion, while hyzmarca and I are taking the entirety of the setting as context for the new rules. |
But Boyle et al. have already demonstrated that the Fourth Edition is being written without regard to what has come before. And have either the Crash 2.0 or the Comet to explain the changes. I believe this weakens any argument based on precedent.
| QUOTE (NightmareX) |
| 1) Aina was able to use magic, albeit with some difficulty during the 5th world (the novel Worlds Without End). Also, certain vampires pre-date the Awakening (like the elven nosferatu from the novel Nosferatu). Also, the novel Black Madonna strongly suggests Jesus was a magician. |
Uh, dude, you just used Nosferatu to support your argument.
| QUOTE (NightmareX) |
| 2) The Grimoires and Magic in the Shadows reference karma as a comodity that free spirits seek after. |
I don't recall any fluff where a spirit cruises up to a magician and says, "Say, could you spare some karma?" The term "karma" is still framed as a game mechanic.
| QUOTE (NightmareX) |
| 3) Cybertechnology goes into detail regarding the methods by which cybermancy works, a transcript of which can be found on Ancient History's site here. |
I read it, it's kinda weak as a support for your argument. I mean, by the same token, modern medical apparati can be considered to be "holding the spirit in the body."
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| But Boyle et al. have already demonstrated that the Fourth Edition is being written without regard to what has come before. And have either the Crash 2.0 or the Comet to explain the changes. I believe this weakens any argument based on precedent. |
I've gathered that much, but it doesn't mean I have to like it or think it's somehow ok (from a storytelling or continuity point of view). Don't get me wrong, I like 4th edition. It runs faster and smoother from a mechanical aspect than previous editions, and some of the changes I've complained about (deckers to hackers for instance) do make sense. But I don't think that 15+ years of work and precedent should be totally disgarded when updating the mechanics.
The Comet is the only possible explanation for such a universal change in how magic works, but I've already explained why it doesn't work as an explanation IMO. If anyone can come up with a better one, I'd be happy to hear it (assuming of course that material links are stricken from the RAW).
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| Uh, dude, you just used Nosferatu to support your argument. |
I know
(The shame, the shame...) But, hyzmarca mentioned examples of magic during the downtime of the 5th World, you asked for references, and Nosferatu is (unfortunately) one such reference.| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| I don't recall any fluff where a spirit cruises up to a magician and says, "Say, could you spare some karma?" The term "karma" is still framed as a game mechanic. |
True, but nonetheless it is mentioned as a commodity. What the spirits refer to it as is up to the GM. Also, there is a fluff reference to karma-the-commodity as karma in Cybertechnology.
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| I read it, it's kinda weak as a support for your argument. I mean, by the same token, modern medical apparati can be considered to be "holding the spirit in the body." |
Not really. "Alpha" and "Omega" are talking about specific magical operations involving overburdening the body with cyberware (going below 0 Essence in game terms) and sustaining the body/soul bond in such a condition when it would normally have ruptured (resulting in death). Besides, again, you asked for references regarding hyzmarca's statements, I supplied
It doesn't actually need an explanation. Changes get made in games all the time that don't get explained. Grounding going away is a big one, as it how initiative used to work. Suddenly every street sam on the planet found out he wasn't fast in the same way he used to be. No explanation, no comet going by, just a rules change made for balance.
Heck, entire game systems have changed (AD&D -> 3e) without so much as a nod to it in flavor text. L5R has waffled back and forth between rolling skill + trait or just skill, meaning that every creature on the planet has seen his ability to complete tasks go up and down inexplicably.
A fluff reasoning would be nice, but it's far necessary.
Heck, entire game systems have changed (AD&D -> 3e) without so much as a nod to it in flavor text. L5R has waffled back and forth between rolling skill + trait or just skill, meaning that every creature on the planet has seen his ability to complete tasks go up and down inexplicably.
A fluff reasoning would be nice, but it's far necessary.
Well, some rule changes in this and previous editions brought 'how it worked in the fluff' and 'how it worked in play system' closer, some others didn't or even made it worse.
Now, which does describe how the world of SR works - fluff or rules ?
My opinion would be that any system's goal is to get as close to describing the fluff without upsetting game balance or bogging down play.
Other seem to see the fluff only as flowery examples for the rules at work.
I guess a lot of discussions are fueled by only this point .........
Oh, btw, can anyone tell me which page Material Links or, for that matter, any application of Ritual Sorcery was on in SR3 or SR2 Core ? I seem to remember these rules were always part of the Magic Sourcebooks ...
Because if anyone wanted to use the fact that Material Links (and lots of other stuff) are not in the Core book as evidence that those things no longer exist, I'd have to use a quote from the Official Shadowrun Homepage :
Now, which does describe how the world of SR works - fluff or rules ?
My opinion would be that any system's goal is to get as close to describing the fluff without upsetting game balance or bogging down play.
Other seem to see the fluff only as flowery examples for the rules at work.
I guess a lot of discussions are fueled by only this point .........
Oh, btw, can anyone tell me which page Material Links or, for that matter, any application of Ritual Sorcery was on in SR3 or SR2 Core ? I seem to remember these rules were always part of the Magic Sourcebooks ...
Because if anyone wanted to use the fact that Material Links (and lots of other stuff) are not in the Core book as evidence that those things no longer exist, I'd have to use a quote from the Official Shadowrun Homepage :
| QUOTE ("FanPro/WKGames") |
| This hardcover rulebook contains all the rules gamemasters and players need to create characters and ongoing adventures set in the popular Shadowrun universe. Note that the Shadowrun, Fourth Edition will replace the Shadowrun, Third Edition rules set. Source material from previous editions will still be compatible. |
So, in fact, official ruling seems to be : If there is no 4th edition rule for a topic yet, use 3rd. (Reconvert any stats to 3rd if necessary).
Though I'm pretty sure the 4th edition rule will be along split dice pool, and threshold for linking test depending on much the same variables as in SR3.
I'd be very surprised if material links aren't dealt with in Street Magic. There's a reason that the magic book is almost always the first rules book to come out outside the core book for any edition of Shadowrun. Because they 've got a lot of stuff to go through.
I'm just house-ruling until it comes....
for example....
Wujen uses intuition to handle drain.
Alchemy is a skill group with Alchemy, Talismongering and Artificing(Foci) as skills.
I'm just house-ruling until it comes....
for example....
Wujen uses intuition to handle drain.
Alchemy is a skill group with Alchemy, Talismongering and Artificing(Foci) as skills.
Just yesterday I noticed that "On the Run" references material linking with Blood samples, yet no rules on it. Now, looking at the table of contents for Street Magic, I am greatly pleased. Sweeeet.
Now, if only I could get an advance ruling on the subject of exactly how it is worked out...
Now, if only I could get an advance ruling on the subject of exactly how it is worked out...
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