Demon_Bob
Jul 2 2006, 02:34 AM
I am trying to understand the reason why all food and drink in Shadowrun seems to be Soy-based.
Are Soy beans just that cheap and easy to grow?
Is there some Mega_Farming Corp that specializes in Soy?
If in Hong-Kong should this change to more of a rice-base?
What is the background on Soy supposed to be?
John Campbell
Jul 2 2006, 02:56 AM
Because In Cyberpunk, Everyone Eats Soy.
As far as I can tell, that's the extent of the thought that went into it.
The ubbergeek
Jul 2 2006, 03:03 AM
Not just soy, but things like mold extracts, planktons and krills, bref, anything cheap to make, who have many sues, and industrialise easily.
Glorian
Jul 2 2006, 03:09 AM
Yes, basically, soybeans are cheap and easy to grow, are sturdy and can survive a great variety of climate changes, and a good source of protein and oil, especially compared to the amount of land you need for a cow. With soybean oil, all sorts of resins, plastics, paints, etc. can be made. There's an entry in the book Shadowtech if you want more details. I think Shadowtech mentions the Resource Rush causing a loss of 40% of arable land to landgrabs. There's even less because of toxins, pollution, etc. For a Hong Kong game, no reason to change it to rice. Asians consume just as much as soy as rice, and rice. Soymilk, tofu, soy sauce, etc. There's also gawd-awful natto. In fact, rice is difficult to cultivate in comparison and doesn't provide as much protein.
And yes, soy is a genre cliche in cyberpunk, for the above-mentioned reasons.
JesterX
Jul 2 2006, 03:17 AM
Not only soy, but also Algea products.
The reason is that those crops are really easy/fast to grow, give them the taste that you want and they are great sources of proteins.
You can also make many things with soy (taken from Wikipedia) :
"Soybeans are also used in industrial products including oils, soap, cosmetics, resins, plastics, inks, crayons, solvents, and biodiesel. Soybeans are also used as fermenting stock to make a brand of vodka."
Beside, there is not many proteins in rice compared to the number of carbohydrates.
Rice, raw
Nutritional value per 100 g Energy 360 kcal 1510 kJ
Carbohydrates 79 g
Fat 0.6 g
Protein 7 g
Vitamin B6 0.15 mg 12% RDA
Water 13 g
However, the perfect human diet (varies from a country/source to another...) should consist of about 60% of carbohydrates, 25% lipids and only 15% of proteins.
For algae, it's said that there is enough under the sea to feed the actual human population for 100 years without even reseeding even once!
Rock
Jul 2 2006, 04:32 PM
Most things for the poor are made of soy...and Soylent.
Drraagh
Jul 2 2006, 10:48 PM
I've heard a few different options for food in Shadowrun. Yes, most talk about Soy for those pretty much up to, and including, Low Lifestyle.
I've heard some about Kibble, which is vat-grown yeast, is the dry food you feed to your dog or cat, but made to be at least somewhat edible for people, even coming with flavor packets like ramen noodles. It's full of preservaties to keep it from going bad so that they can be bought in bulk when people can afford it and use it.
Some people probably also look into gardening. Either by hydroponics, if you can afford the electricity, or just in window boxes and on the roof. This gives you a supply of herbs, vegetables or whatever it is that you plant for cheap though acid rains and such can be a problem, but what you do grow can also be sold or traded for things you need.
One thing I can also see surviving the resource wars would be MRE foods. They could be released by corps as a way to feed the masses cheaply, or there could be stockpiles of it in old manufacturing plants, same with Twinkies and other such stuff. ;P
Then, you get into the higher lifestyles. In Medium, you probably have most meals made by stuff a step up from soy, like vat-grown meat substitutes, like "I-Can't-Believe-It's-Not-Cow" Hamburgers or "No Name" Chicken Fingers, and maybe every now and then you can spluge on an actual meat meal. High lifestyle, you probably have your own meat that you cook yourself or restaurants that know you by name. And last, is Luxury, where your butler cooks up the me at for you.
So, soy is a good nutritional option as people have pointed out, and it's cheap, so the masses, living in coffin motels, dumpsters, or one room apartments, probably eat it as a way to live. Some may not even know of any better. But, at least in my view of the world, there are a few other options for people at the lower levels for food sources. Heck, I'm almost thinking of rewarding my players with a live chicken after one run for the heck of it. It could be better than cash in some ways. Keep it and you have fresh food every day, whereas sell it and you can live like a king for a while, or you can cook it for one good meal.
hobgoblin
Jul 3 2006, 01:27 AM
hmm, kibble. probably works ok as a cereal with water or soy-milk
Trax
Jul 3 2006, 01:45 AM
If you add water it makes it's own gravy.
FanGirl
Jul 3 2006, 01:58 AM
QUOTE (Drraagh) |
Heck, I'm almost thinking of rewarding my players with a live chicken after one run for the heck of it. |
I literally LOLed when I read that. Will you throw in a fattened pig if they complete the run by next Michaelmas Eve?
Calvin Hobbes
Jul 3 2006, 03:38 AM
Our first job was for free eats at a chinese revolutionary cuisine restaurant.
Kremlin KOA
Jul 3 2006, 04:20 AM
QUOTE (FanGirl) |
QUOTE (Drraagh @ Jul 2 2006, 05:48 PM) | Heck, I'm almost thinking of rewarding my players with a live chicken after one run for the heck of it. |
I literally LOLed when I read that. Will you throw in a fattened pig if they complete the run by next Michaelmas Eve? |
hmm what if they 'love' the chicken too muchh to eat it?
Drraagh
Jul 3 2006, 05:42 AM
As I posted in the Metahuman biology thread, I had a character who was allergic to meat (I never really took elves a biologically unable to eat meat, so I made it as an allergy). Player took it as a flaw, an in most cases, it never made much of an issue seeing as they regularly ate soy and alternatives, but there were times where they would be required to eat meat, such as a meeting with the Johnson where they gave you a steak dinner as a sign of 'loyalty', I suppose. Or another one where it was a tribe ritual to join as an member of their tribe to eat stuff sort of like survivor.
So the chicken was another one of those sort of issues. Player can't really refuse the chicken if they want some payment for the run, but if they do take it, what are they going to do with it? I tend to like paying my runners in things other than cash, because it gives me opprotunies to develop events around. Say your fixer just got an item that they weren't sure exactly what it was, like the program the Finn had gotten in 'Burning Chrome'. It's just a matter of how you arrange it, I suppose.
Though, if you don't give out cash, it can get hard to give the rewards as well because the players don't want to lose money, so it's a mixed bag usually. Sometimes it's a side-quest trigger, other times it a red herring and other times its a one shot item like the Math Grenades from 'Pattern REcognition' or perhaps a 2nd Edition manuscript of Shakespear's plays.
SL James
Jul 3 2006, 06:33 AM
QUOTE (Rock) |
Most things for the poor are made of soy...and Soylent. |
Heh. Soylent is (and is for) the poor. Long pig is for the wealthy. God bless capitalism.
PBTHHHHT
Jul 3 2006, 04:36 PM
QUOTE (SL James) |
QUOTE (Rock @ Jul 2 2006, 10:32 AM) | Most things for the poor are made of soy...and Soylent. |
Heh. Soylent is (and is for) the poor. Long pig is for the wealthy. God bless capitalism.
|
*snicker* Thank goodness for History Channel. Yeah, let's have a bbq for the fourth, long pig will be on the menu!
SL James
Jul 3 2006, 06:09 PM
The History Channel?
PBTHHHHT
Jul 3 2006, 06:22 PM
They had a special on Portland and it's infamous tunnels that people would use to 'shanghai' folks. They even talked about some of the conditions on the sailing ships for folks who were 'shanghai'd. Whenever the ship had trouble with provisions they'd be one of the first on the menu when the captain would say there'd be long pig for dinner tonight. Yummy.
Demonseed Elite
Jul 4 2006, 02:13 AM
QUOTE |
Is there some Mega_Farming Corp that specializes in Soy? |
Aztechnology, for one.
QUOTE |
If in Hong-Kong should this change to more of a rice-base? |
There actually is discussion about rice, soy, and mycoprotein farms in the Hong Kong section of RH.
SL James
Jul 4 2006, 03:55 AM
Ah, yes. NatVat.
Anyway, PBTHHHHT, I was just thinking generally. It seems the wealthy would be the most likely to afford such a delicacy given the cost-prohibitive nature of raising long pig that didn't eat crap and live in its own filth in a disease-ridden, poor blah blah blah lifestyle. Whereas when you're making soylent... Who the fuck cares where the bodies came from? One is actually eating human, and the other is eating something that ate dead human bodies.
It is literally the difference between organic, free-range human or elf raised on a corporate compound to be meaty and tender vs. ... ick ... bacteria that ate SINless guttertrash trog you can find anywhere.
PBTHHHHT
Jul 5 2006, 02:55 PM
Well James, when you say Longpig, that's what I got the terminology from. You asked, I delivered.
Free range meat... hmmm... how about 'hunting expeditions'? Where corporate execs can go on 'safaris' to bag some good long pig for the buffet. In that case, well, adds the whole dimension of the most dangerous game into the factor also. Potential run/adventure?
bclements
Jul 5 2006, 05:05 PM
I think SoA had something like that. Wealthy people eating teh Long Pig just because they could. I'll look up the page reference here in a bit.
SL James
Jul 5 2006, 05:38 PM
Well, I'm using the term as it was used in Transmet.
Anyway, I must say the idea does intrigue me. After all, human life really isn't worth much if anything in Shadowrun alive (even forced breeding is pretty damn slow compared to cloning). So why wouldn't there be a market for human by the kilo?
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT) |
Free range meat... hmmm... how about 'hunting expeditions'? Where corporate execs can go on 'safaris' to bag some good long pig for the buffet. In that case, well, adds the whole dimension of the most dangerous game into the factor also. Potential run/adventure? |
Haven't you seen Surviving the Game and Hard Target? Eventually they'll hunt down someone who will kill all of the hunters instead in stupid action-movie style.
Anyway, I was actually thinking of healthy young overachieving corp brats.
Drraagh
Jul 7 2006, 11:10 PM
I know this is a dead horse, but me and my friends were talking about this. I wonder what sort of labels you'll see on foods in SR. Perhaps 'Warning: This products may contain traces of meat', if you believes elves can't eat meat. Or what about food made from old newspaper pulp, "Warning: This product may contain traces of Peanuts Characters."
I decided to use part of it as my signature, but figured it'd be interesting to add for a bit of humor in your games.
hyzmarca
Jul 7 2006, 11:32 PM
QUOTE (SL James) |
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT) | Free range meat... hmmm... how about 'hunting expeditions'? Where corporate execs can go on 'safaris' to bag some good long pig for the buffet. In that case, well, adds the whole dimension of the most dangerous game into the factor also. Potential run/adventure? |
Haven't you seen Surviving the Game and Hard Target? Eventually they'll hunt down someone who will kill all of the hunters instead in stupid action-movie style.
Anyway, I was actually thinking of healthy young overachieving corp brats.
|
That's the entire point of hunting
The Most Dangerous Game. If they couldn't kill you then they wouldn't be worthy of your skill.
PBTHHHHT
Jul 8 2006, 12:11 AM
QUOTE (SL James @ Jul 5 2006, 12:38 PM) |
Haven't you seen Surviving the Game and Hard Target? Eventually they'll hunt down someone who will kill all of the hunters instead in stupid action-movie style.
Anyway, I was actually thinking of healthy young overachieving corp brats. |
Aye, I have seen those movies. And read the classic short story. Doesn't mean you can't use it. Yes, it's flawed and the hunters will become the hunted. It's standard cliche but heck, a lot of stories and such are recycled concepts anyway. Just file it away under oldies but goodies when you don't have a good original plot to work with.
Omer Joel
Jul 11 2006, 09:34 AM
With all the fat rats running around the Barrens, I'm surprised that squatter tribes don't learn how to hunt - sure, rats are a risky prey, but they have meat, real meat, and no one says that that package of NutriSoy has less poisoneus chemicals in it than the flesh of a Devil-rat who grew up in the sewers of Redmond...
Hunting isn't only for the rich, you see - viva la Ratburger!
Witness
Jul 11 2006, 09:37 AM
QUOTE (Omer Joel) |
I'm surprised that squatter tribes don't learn how to hunt |
I'm betting they do.
Platinum
Jul 11 2006, 01:51 PM
Real meat, but so many toxins and probably tumours from living in the sewers.
Tziluthi
Jul 11 2006, 02:01 PM
Yeah. You hear people kicking up a stink about preservatives in foods. If you think that stuff is bad, try living off something that is exposed to toxic or carcenogenic chemicals, or heavy metals frequently. In some ways you might be better off starving to death.
QUOTE |
I've heard some about Kibble, which is vat-grown yeast, is the dry food you feed to your dog or cat, but made to be at least somewhat edible for people, even coming with flavor packets like ramen noodles. It's full of preservaties to keep it from going bad so that they can be bought in bulk when people can afford it and use it. |
Shrike30
Jul 11 2006, 11:40 PM
Read Stephenson's Zodiac sometime if you want to get some ideas about what kind of problems people can get into eating meat that, in it's lifetime, ate all sorts of bizarre crap. There's a reason I stick as much to organic foods as I can.
Probably one of my favorite images of a well-fed underclass came from Transmetropolitan. Nano-assemblers are so cheap that EVERYONE has a "maker," but asides from some really basic patterns (read, kibble) you've got to buy the blueprints for more complex things (read, good food, stylish clothing, etc). What you end up with is people who may be squatting in an alley, but if they can steal a little power and collect enough trash, they can get enough raw matter into the maker to eat that night.
Omer Joel
Jul 12 2006, 07:14 AM
QUOTE (Tziluthi @ Jul 11 2006, 04:01 PM) |
Yeah. You hear people kicking up a stink about preservatives in foods. If you think that stuff is bad, try living off something that is exposed to toxic or carcenogenic chemicals, or heavy metals frequently. In some ways you might be better off starving to death. |
Yeah, like the cheap-ass processed NutriSoy DOESN'T have similar amounts of toxic or carcenogenic chemicals...
Ofcourse, enterprising squatter tribes might actually raise rats and cockroaches as "cattle", feeding them with trash which isn't man-edible and then eating their meat. This will be cleaner than game caught in the sewer, but still a very hardy animal that could thrive on trash in the harsh conditions of the Barrens. Plus, you can then organize rat-fights for entertainment - the squatter who wins the bet gets to eat both "contestants"...
SL James
Jul 12 2006, 02:02 PM
Reminds me of a story I read about an Australian locked away in a Thailand prison. The other prisoners would feed the roaches some of their rice. Then after they got nice and plump, they'd stick a bunch in a baggie and smash the shit out of them. Then they'd eat the paste - because that was the only source of protein that they had.
Good times.
Jrayjoker
Jul 12 2006, 02:17 PM
QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
hmm what if they 'love' the chicken too much to eat it? |
Hmmm, somone is channeling Gonzo the Great...
SL James
Jul 12 2006, 02:24 PM
Or the bookmobile driver on South Park who actually DID fuck chickens.
Jrayjoker
Jul 12 2006, 02:30 PM
Hmm, I need to up my South Park dosage apparently. Haven't seen that yet.
Demon_Bob
Jul 14 2006, 04:51 AM
QUOTE (Platinum) |
Real meat, but so many toxins and probably tumours from living in the sewers. |
Na, Get them young and raise them on Soy products.
Farm-raised Rat-Burgers for sale.
nezumi
Jul 14 2006, 02:34 PM
I wouldn't feed them my tasty soy. I'd feed them stuff I can't eat, like other hobos.
El_Machinae
Jul 15 2006, 12:54 AM
Then you get toxin accumulation all over again.
Eventually in the real world, enough people will become aware of the ecological inefficiencies of eating meat, and hopefully the price of meat will reflect it's true cost soon.
NightmareX
Jul 15 2006, 07:40 AM
QUOTE (El_Machinae) |
Eventually in the real world, enough people will become aware of the ecological inefficiencies of eating meat, and hopefully the price of meat will reflect it's true cost soon. |
Ecological inefficiencies? Tell that to natural carnivores.
El_Machinae
Jul 15 2006, 12:15 PM
Ah, I was referring to the practice of feeding billions of a species off of a diminishing ecological base.
The simple fact is that you need less water, fuel, and farm land to eat grains and vegetables than to feed the grains and vegetables to livestock. You get your calories and nutrition more cheaply (resource-wise) by skipping livestock. A lot more cheaply. I'm not saying we should become vegetarians, but that I'd like to see the ecological costs of meat incorporated into the pricing.
Snow_Fox
Jul 15 2006, 03:53 PM
In the British navy in the age of sail they would get weevils in their bread. The weevils would then be fed to the livestock on board like chickens.
As for the rest of this thread, I've been htinking about this for a while.
WHY is soy a big part of the Shadowrun universe? I know in cyberpunk it's a major element and the idea is that the world population has grown so large it cannot be supproted by regular farming BUT there are issues in the SR world
1) There has been a massive depolulation of the world due to VITAS and wars.
2) even if the masses in asia and Africa are starving, doesn't the US and Japan grow enough food to feed their own populations? Even with toxic zones in europe there should be enough farm land. The reclamation of Amazonia by vegitation should make farming there easier. not the big aggrarian stuff but today they are successful at orchids, coffee, fruits and coca without doing that big time. So shouldn't 'real' food be common at least in Europe, who ever has argentina and north america?
the wheat/corn fields and catlte ranges of the current USA and Canada are styill in place and suffered no melt downs. so that cattle ranch is now in the PPC and the grain is from Souix nation as often as CAS or UCAS but still....
El_Machinae
Jul 15 2006, 11:25 PM
You're very right. It was likely thrown in since it's a sci-fi stapel.
NightmareX
Jul 16 2006, 07:45 PM
QUOTE (El_Machinae) |
Ah, I was referring to the practice of feeding billions of a species off of a diminishing ecological base. |
I see that as more of an overpopulation problem than a eco-logistics problem. Get rid of the overpopulation and you get rid of the problem
The ubbergeek
Jul 16 2006, 10:04 PM
There is probably regional differences...
Snow_Fox
Jul 16 2006, 11:07 PM
overpopulation was taken care of by VITAS. Also it is not a problem in the currnet USA/Canada region and will be less of an issue after VITAS. and we can feed ourselves now.
polution could take out some luxeries like shellfish(more agro-farming there) salmon, caviar but meat, grain, dairy and chicken should be ok.
TonkaTuff
Jul 17 2006, 01:40 AM
Actually, the VITAS plagues could be the reason for the shortages of "regular" food.
The hardest depopulated areas were large cities (where people were crammed together and supplies ran out) or semi-rural areas where the medical services just weren't there. Cities are no good for farming anyhow (other than large-scale hydroponics and similar operations - thus, the soy/krill explosion). And the agrarian population would have taken a sizable hit because the large tracts of land and constant supervision required for profitable farming puts them out in the middle of nowhere.
As farmer-flight is already a concern now, wiping out those who chose the profession wouldn't help at all. And most of the plague survivors would probably have flocked to the cities because that's where they'd find jobs and security from the roaming bandit-types who inevitably spring up after apocalypse-level disasters. Most of the regular agriculture is probably taken on by a few heavily-secured corporate factory farms. And the higher operating costs (and, probably, manufactured scarcity) would be passed-on to the consumer.
bigdrewp
Jul 18 2006, 08:06 PM
QUOTE (El_Machinae) |
Eventually in the real world, enough people will become aware of the ecological inefficiencies of eating meat, and hopefully the price of meat will reflect it's true cost soon. |
Meat tastes so good though, and it answers the question, "What are these pointy teeth in my head for?"
PBTHHHHT
Jul 18 2006, 08:42 PM
QUOTE (bigdrewp) |
QUOTE (El_Machinae @ Jul 14 2006, 07:54 PM) | Eventually in the real world, enough people will become aware of the ecological inefficiencies of eating meat, and hopefully the price of meat will reflect it's true cost soon. |
Meat tastes so good though, and it answers the question, "What are these pointy teeth in my head for?"
|
Don't worry, I can rip those out of your mouth with some pliers.
Snow_Fox
Jul 20 2006, 03:25 AM
I have fully developed fangs. upper and lower set. that is they come to points that porject beyond the level of the flat teeth around them. It is called a 'ferral jaw.' A freind of mine if a wiccan, vegan and veternarian. She is one of those agressive vegans but after she saw my teeth she declared- "Yup that's a carnivore's jaw line" and she never gave me any grief over meat since.
by that trolls nadp orbably orks will be ok for meat.
SL James
Jul 20 2006, 03:54 AM
QUOTE (Snow_Fox) |
by that trolls nadp orbably orks will be ok for meat. |
What?